m105 and m205 leaving bad hazing and not correcting properly.

when using the Brinkman xenon light, do extra hazing and chemical residues show up that wont be visible under the sun?

Yes, that's at least one reason it has the nickname, "The Cruel Master", it's hard to please. I"m sure some people thought I was kidding when I posted that a few days ago and same goes for people in the classes when I refer to it that way. It's a great tool but it's also a Cruel Master.


ive been going back and forth on pads,

I think Dana posted that going from the orange cutting pad to the gray finishing pad was a good size jump in pads and I'd agree with that also. Maybe try a polishing pad with the M105 and then the gray pad finishing pad with the M205

Quick question?

Are you still doing a Test Spot or have you buffed out the entire car with this system?

Hopefully you're still in the dialing-in step. Paints are different, what works on one paint system may not work on a different paint system. Polish manufactures try to create products that will work on a wide spectrum of different paints but it's hard to get them all.

So far I haven't come across any paint system that doesn't like the Wolfgang Twins and I'm fully aware of the M105/M205 Tag Team as I had the good fortune of introducing them on the MOL forum and have used them a lot on a lot of different paint systems.

Just got out of the garage about a half hour ago doing a wet-sanding project using the Griot's ROP with the Wolfgang Twins to remove sanding marks on factory GM paint and it came out flawless.


If you have other polishes then try those out. I was under the impression the Megs twins were all you were using. Lets us know the outcome with the other polishes.

More good advice.

I always do a Test Spot to a small area and then check the results in the sun if that's possible and also using the Swirl Finder Light. Until I dial-in a system that works I don't start in on the rest of the car.

Back to processing pictures...

:)
 
Yes, that's at least one reason it has the nickname, "The Cruel Master", it's hard to please. I"m sure some people thought I was kidding when I posted that a few days ago and same goes for people in the classes when I refer to it that way. It's a great tool but it's also a Cruel Master.




I think Dana posted that going from the orange cutting pad to the gray finishing pad was a good size jump in pads and I'd agree with that also. Maybe try a polishing pad with the M105 and then the gray pad finishing pad with the M205

Quick question?

Are you still doing a Test Spot or have you buffed out the entire car with this system?

Hopefully you're still in the dialing-in step. Paints are different, what works on one paint system may not work on a different paint system. Polish manufactures try to create products that will work on a wide spectrum of different paints but it's hard to get them all.

So far I haven't come across any paint system that doesn't like the Wolfgang Twins and I'm fully aware of the M105/M205 Tag Team as I had the good fortune of introducing them on the MOL forum and have used them a lot on a lot of different paint systems.

Just got out of the garage about a half hour ago doing a wet-sanding project using the Griot's ROP with the Wolfgang Twins to remove sanding marks on factory GM paint and it came out flawless.




More good advice.

I always do a Test Spot to a small area and then check the results in the sun if that's possible and also using the Swirl Finder Light. Until I dial-in a system that works I don't start in on the rest of the car.

Back to processing pictures...

:)


ill give the 105 on a polishing pad a try, i understand there is always a certain progressiong to take in order to get a proper system down to produce continually good results.

unfortunately the issue with this was not present until i had finished the car completey. lol, i had done my test spot before, had two large halogen spotlights as work lights and check basically every surface i completed, checked in the sun, but the sun hadnt been out in full force for days. and the day when the sun came out in its entireity, i noticed the holos on the door panels only (some on the hood, but not as bad and not as much). so i ordered the brinkmann after that so i wouldnt have to worry about having to redo work again.


i think ive got the m105 205 combination figured out there, its just picky on this black paint about how much pressure you need to finish out on and how fast you can move when finishing out. it definately needs some pressure when finishing, leaving it too soft on the paint doesnt seem to help much since the abrasives dont dimish as you work them in im guessing.

but i also ordered a set of xmt polishes, pinnacle seems like they know what they are doing with their polishes, and it doesnt hurt to have more than a couple types, dimishing, non diminishing, light, heavy, agressive, fine... on hand...

thanks for all the help, just hoping that when the sun comes out, i can see what it looks like in full sunlight so i can put the "cruel master" away and be happy with the results as everyone, and not just i, will see them.


--------------


one more question though, i was thinking as a way to save time. would you be able to after working 105 or 205 into the paint, leave the residue on there, switch pads... prime the pad with something like the xmt priming spray, and continue to work what you have on there in with a finer pad to save the problem of wiping away.... as long as you already know youve worked what you have on there in enough, you could save a little bit of time and product by using what is already present... id assume a majority of the paint taken off would be absorbed in the pad as well since things are continually lifted off the surface, not deposited.
 
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one more question though, i was thinking as a way to save time. would you be able to after working 105 or 205 into the paint, leave the residue on there, switch pads... prime the pad with something like the XMT priming spray, and continue to work what you have on there in with a finer pad to save the problem of wiping away....

Theoretically that shouldn't hurt anything because theoretically the super micro abrasives used in the M105 and M205 don't break down like a diminishing abrasive therefore there's not supposed to be a difference in cutting power throughout the buffing cycle of the product. That said as you buff the product gets used up and as paint comes off the car it also becomes adulterated or diluted so it doesn't cut the same at the end of the cycle as it cuts at the beginning of the cycle. So theoretically there shouldn't be a problem with what you describe from the abrasive technology point of view but I wouldn't do it the way you describe.

Here's why, you always want to work clean. As you abrade paint you remove paint and also any impurities on or in the paint, this turns into a residue of spent product and removed paint, as this build-up between your pad and the surface you're not longer working clean.

Misting on some XMT Pad Priming Spray will re-wet this mixture so you can buff longer or more but you're re-wetting spent product and removed paint. That's not working clean. I know when you run into problems that you get to a point where you'll try anything so if you want try your idea out but here's what I would do.

First, it sounds like the paint is either very soft or very scratch sensitive. A paint can be hard and still scratch easy and this is called scratch-sensitive. I can't explain it so please don't ask suffice to say Corvettes have very hard paint but still scratch easy as do other paints on the market.

The goal is to,

A. Remove the below surface defects with your first step product
B. Create a clear, swirl-free surface or haze-free surface

Once you remove the defects with the M105 you can stop buffing as it's not like a DAT product, (Diminishing Abrasive Technology), in which you must work the product till all the diminishing abrasive have broken down.

Next, you want to use your second step product to refine the results from the first step product till the surface is perfect, or as close to it as possible, this would be smooth, technically flat but some people confuse the word flat with the word matte and that's not the context of how I'm using the word flat in this instance, and clear, that is no defects or surface imperfections that will cloud your view of the paint under the clear coat. Even if this were a single stage you still want the single stage paint clear, not as in you can see through it but clean and without defects to so the full richness of the color is not blocked by anything on the surface.

If M205 is removing any haze or micro-marring left by the M105 and I'm assuming that if M205 isn't leaving a perfect finish then M105 isn't either since it's more aggressive, then the fix is to,

Adjust the pad being used with the M205
Adjust the technique being used with the M205
Switch to a different product

M205 is very non-aggressive, it's designed primarily for use on fresh paint in a body shop situation to remove any light swirls left by the M105 after being used with a rotary buffer. That is the primary market these products were formulated to go after. Correctly used, M105 can remove up to #1200 grit sanding marks and polish out to about 90% of the goal of a 100% swirl-free, clear glossy finish. Thus M205 is very light because all it's supposed to have to do is go after the last 10% of the goal.

This is why M205 is actually less aggressive than SwirlX and ScratchX in the Consumer Line which often times surprises people and that's why I wrote an article on the order of aggressiveness and in the title I added the words, "This will surprise you" :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Before going any further, here's a question, from your experience, would you say this paint is hard or soft?

Did the defects, that is the swirls an scratches buff out quickly, easily and for the most part completely with the M105?






as long as you already know you've worked what you have on there in enough, you could save a little bit of time and product by using what is already present... id assume a majority of the paint taken off would be absorbed in the pad as well since things are continually lifted off the surface, not deposited.

What you wrote above is correct but the problem is while "yes" you can re-wet the conglomerate of substances now on the pad and on the surface but you're no longer working clean. I can't stress the importance of working clean because the opposite is working dirty and that can lead to problems whether you do this on purpose or by accident.

See this thread for an example,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/21447-removing-pigtails.html

Note in the thread I also brought up the topic of working clean as it related to accidental getting some kind of abrasive particle trapped between the pad and the paint surface and the resulting problem and it was accidental.

Sometimes things like this happen, it's happened to me before, (pigtails in the paint after buffing)




If you can, let me know what you think of the paints hardness or softness and I'll get back to you.


:)
 
well mike. thanks for the answers so far, but this may help you decide wether its a hard or soft paint.. i havent worked on a very wide variety of paints on different manufacturers cars, only this car, and a couple other toyotas as well as my own laid down dupont 496 clear

here is a picture to help with the idea of how soft/hard it may be... i accomplished this spot after about 3 minutes, or 1 application (6-7 passes) of regular buffing with m105, and then 1 application (6-7 passes) of m205.

100_1507.jpg


the paint, when working it feels like it corrects very easily, but also feels like its difficult to get to a "perfect" finish, also, after removing swirls from the vehicle, i had washed it two seperate times, as it had 2 layers of z5 sealant, and 2 layers of blackfire wet diamond... did a 2 bucket regular wash with nice strong hose attachment.... and also did an ONR wash after a couple days of driving... but it seemed like it collected new swirls even when washing correctly.

so im more inclined to say this paint is softer
 
Yeah, I'd say it's very soft.

It's also very pretty after it's polished and it looks like it was really neglected for some time from the before side.

If it's scratching really easy from machine steps and even washing and wiping steps, then there's not much you're going to be able to do to fix the problem with the paint.

Find a wax or paint sealant you like and use it often.

Find a spray on wax you like and learn to use it like an expert and you'll find you can freshen the just waxed look as fast as you can wipe it down with a spray detailer.

:)
 
Yeah, I'd say it's very soft.

It's also very pretty after it's polished and it looks like it was really neglected for some time from the before side.

If it's scratching really easy from machine steps and even washing and wiping steps, then there's not much you're going to be able to do to fix the problem with the paint.

Find a wax or paint sealant you like and use it often.

Find a spray on wax you like and learn to use it like an expert and you'll find you can freshen the just waxed look as fast as you can wipe it down with a spray detailer.

:)


well. i tried a new step the other night....

since i still have quite a bit of zaino products left. i went ahead and did a Z-AIO buffing after doing a final buff with the 205 and a gray pad... then after it dried i inspected the surface, and it looked pretty good, not much noticeable, so its sort of a bonus to using the aio as a last step to prevent any unprotected paint contact, and then using a couple layers of z5 to help fill anything else seemed to help as well...


as for a spray wax type detailer, i hear DP instant detailer works pretty well, and i also read that it has a wax in it as well.... i use fk425 and z6 right now, but after i run low i might pick it up to help protect the paint alittle more after each wipe down...
 
I know this is a really old thread, but I happened to come across it as it's very similar to an issue I had a year or two ago (I had made a thread; I'll try to find it and edit this post with it later).

Just wondering if the OP is still around and if he ever managed to "figure it out."

I have a non-metallic black 350z that is quite finicky in some areas. These areas are primarily the parts of the car that have been repainted. It's been my experience that the paint is so soft on these repainted panels that you can create marks just by rubbing polish off... even if very lightly.

It's been a year or two since I've polished my car, so I'm going to take another stab at it this time around. See if I get manage to figure the repainted panels out.

Also, one thing I wanted to add to this thread, in case anyone else reads it in the future...

Just today I polished out my hood using a Flex with black pads and m205. I just got a Flex light too. Guess what? I have hazing with M205 (hood is not repainted). To be fair, I don't know that you could even see it in the sun (I didn't check, but with the amount of experience I have now, I'm betting it would be very difficult if not impossible). Anyways, the black pad supposedly has no cut and m205 is supposed to be "ultra fine." Don't get me wrong, I like the stuff as I've had good experiences with it in the past. Today, however, I found the only thing that finished with no marks was Menzerna SF4500. It's great stuff, but it's not fast. You have to work it forever.

So, in case anyone else ever happens to have this problem, try Menzerna SF4500. I know of nothing else that finishes perfectly (this is where my lack of experience comes in though, as I'm sure there are others that finish perfect).
 
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