What makes wax bond to the clear coat?

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DavidAl

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Let's take a carnauba wax, for example. What makes carnauba wax stick to the clear coat, even after repeated washes, rain storms and other environmental conditions, for many months at a time.

Isn't wax an oil? Oil usually doesn't have bonding properties.

Thanks.
 
DavidAl said:
What makes carnauba wax
stick to the clear coat...
Click to expand...
I'm glad you made the distinction
between stick and bond.

DavidAl said:
What makes carnauba wax stick
to the clear coat, even after repeated
washes, rain storms and other
environmental conditions,
for many months at a time.
Click to expand...
That kind of time period is quite a
stretch for Carnauba Waxes, IMO.

DavidAl said:
Isn't wax an oil?
Click to expand...
•Microcrystalline Waxes are manufactured
through oil processing methods.

•Some car waxes contain "oily"-hydrocarbons,
(and Solvents), in their formulations.

DavidAl said:
Oil usually doesn't have
bonding properties.
Click to expand...
•Silicone Oils do:
-Silicones are polymerized siloxanes (or polysiloxanes).
-Polysiloxanes, in and of themselves:
exhibit "bonding characteristics".
-Cross-linking, IMO, can be called: a type of bonding.



Bob
 
Bob, when you say cross-linking would be considered bonding, do you mean an intermolecular force(like a covalent or ioninc bond)or an intramolecular force(like LDF, dipole-dipole forces, or hydrogen bonding)?
I would think it's more of attractive intramolecular forces, but could see how it could be actual bonding(intermolecular)
 
What...no mention of van der Waals?!?! :laughing:


Bob
 
Setec Astronomy said:
No, wax is wax. And synthetic wax is silicone (usually).
Click to expand...

I think what he is alluding to is that the chemistry is not dissimilar, which would be correct. There is rarely much of a bond, it is little more than what you would get with an oil - it lasts mostly because it is not water miscible and is non-volatile.

As a related point, silicones are not synthetic waxes. Silicones are basically polymeric chains which compare with oils more than anything else. Synthetic waxes are almost always still hydrocarbon waxes, just not naturally occurring. From my perspective, such synthetic waxes are enormously useful and lets you do things that you cannot do with a natural wax. Silicones are a further additive which give numerous additional benefits.

ViperGuy21 said:
Bob, when you say cross-linking would be considered bonding, do you mean an intermolecular force(like a covalent or ioninc bond)or an intramolecular force(like LDF, dipole-dipole forces, or hydrogen bonding)?
I would think it's more of attractive intramolecular forces, but could see how it could be actual bonding(intermolecular)
Click to expand...

Crosslinking will tend to be covalent but it is important to realise that this is bonding within your LSP film and has zero guarantee of bonding to the surface.

Basically a regular wax (there are exceptions, but we are taking hybrid type materials) does not have any strength of 'bond' the the surface. It is very weakly bound and remains in place because it is water repellent and non-volatile. Sealants will have a more definite bond to the surface and a proper coating will go one step further.
 
PiPUK said:
As a related point, silicones are not synthetic waxes.
Click to expand...

Are you making a distinction between a synthetic wax and a sealant? I wasn't; I was just alluding to the fact that many "waxes" are sealants or have a sealant component.

Thanks for the other corrections/clarifications.
 
FUNX650 said:
What...no mention of van der Waals?!?! :laughing:


Bob
Click to expand...

Van Der Waals is just an all-inclusive term for IMF's from what I've learned, I just broke it down a little farther.
And sorry, I got my inter- and intra- backwards lol
 
Yea; but:
Tell someone there are 600 billion stars
in the universe, and they'll believe you...


Bob
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Are you making a distinction between a synthetic wax and a sealant? I wasn't; I was just alluding to the fact that many "waxes" are sealants or have a sealant component.

Thanks for the other corrections/clarifications.
Click to expand...

Absolutely - most synthetic waxes are just waxes, they are chemically very similar to carnauba/montan/etc. but just happen to have been made synthetically. They won't crosslink, they won't have any notable bond. The benefit with them is that their precise character can be tinkered - you can change the melting point, the hardness (etc.), which you cannot really do with a natural wax. 'Sealant' is poorly defined but a plain and simple wax should not be considered as such.

There are waxes which are sealants - they basically are a wax which is also effectively a bonding silicone polymer, all in one. Most consumer wax products are not this. They are blends of standard waxes and silicone chemistries - lower grade 'hybrids' and technology which is 20 or more years old.

Silicones are oils - so a silicone is equivalent to something like kerosine, but with silicon chemistry. So totally distinct from both wax and sealant.
 
ViperGuy21 said:
Van Der Waals is just an all-inclusive term for IMF's from what I've learned, I just broke it down a little farther.
And sorry, I got my inter- and intra- backwards lol
Click to expand...

Now I really got a headache :)
 
TMI...............:confused:

All I know is that I put it on, I wipe it off and I stand back and admire the results.

:props:
 
custmsprty said:
TMI...............:confused:

All I know is that I put it on, I wipe it off and I stand back and admire the results.

:props:
Click to expand...

This is the way to do it lol^^^
I'm a chemistry nerd(going to major in it when I go to college this fall)
 
PiPUK said:
Absolutely - most synthetic waxes are just waxes, they are chemically very similar to carnauba/montan/etc. but just happen to have been made synthetically. They won't crosslink, they won't have any notable bond. The benefit with them is that their precise character can be tinkered - you can change the melting point, the hardness (etc.), which you cannot really do with a natural wax. 'Sealant' is poorly defined but a plain and simple wax should not be considered as such.

There are waxes which are sealants - they basically are a wax which is also effectively a bonding silicone polymer, all in one. Most consumer wax products are not this. They are blends of standard waxes and silicone chemistries - lower grade 'hybrids' and technology which is 20 or more years old.

Silicones are oils - so a silicone is equivalent to something like kerosine, but with silicon chemistry. So totally distinct from both wax and sealant.
Click to expand...

Apologies, this was typed up quickly!

Part of the issue is that oils and waxes are actually scientifically definable. 'Sealant' simply has no definite definition. If you google the term, you are more likely to find an elastomer type product which goes in your shower tray than what is meant in the detailing sector (I don't even say automotive as the general perception of sealant in the wider automotive sector will be more like that which goes on your shower try to seal it from water leakage). From my perspective, a sealant in the regard we talk about it here, should refer to a product which has a definite affinity for the surface. This isn't a characteristic which occurs with hydrocarbon waxes (both natural and synthetic). We then have lower order hybrids, which are blends of waxes and these surface substantive sealants. I would hazard to suggest that, looking at larger wax manufacturers, this is something of a norm. If I were making a wax, the only ready that I would not use these ingredients would be if I couldn't source them - your product simply won't be as good without them. To that end, the only waxes which are genuinely wax only will be cheap ones or ones coming from home-brewers who cannot afford to spend $10k on a drum of material. We then have another type of hybrid, where we have a specialised wax which (as a single compound, not a blend) is surface substantive. Now there are thousands of 'waxes' available to a formulator, probably 10s of thousands. The surface substantive types - dozens? Maybe hundreds? Moreover, they are exceptionally expensive compared to standard waxes. They can give superb results, beyond that which you can achieve with a blend of wax and substantive polymer, but they are a distinct niche in auto care. Then of course we move up to coatings which are not simply substantive but actually form permanent bonds.
 
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