Why not sealant on top of wax?

[Eldorado2k]

Remind me again, why isn't a sealant supposed to go on top of a wax? Serious question because I guess it's early and I can't think of the answer.. Anyways, I've got an AIO job today and my plan is to use Megs D151 topped with ? Maybe D156, maybe Reload, Ech2o, or whatever else I've got but can't think of atm..

Isn't D151 supposed to contain carnauba wax as it's protection? Or is it a carnauba/sealant hybrid? If it's wax, then why does the label recommend topping with M21 or your favorite wax or sealant? Don't people constantly talk about spraying D156 over AIO's which contain wax? What's the big deal with applying sealant over wax?

[Setec Astronomy]

The logic was that because of the different ways that waxes and sealants bond to the surface. The logic was simply that a wax would bond on top of a sealant, while a sealant wouldn't bond on top of a wax (this had to do with the fact that sealants cross-link and waxes don't).

But you are correct that virtually every wax today is a hybrid containing some synthetic/sealant ingredients, and the whole thing seems rather silly. Add to that the topic that I frequently bring up about "stripped" surfaces and what's really on there.

What I mean is Member X decides he wants to strip off his "wax" because he wants to use a sealant and it won't bond to his "wax". So he washes the car with Dawn, so he has a "clean" "stripped" surface. When based on the testing of some members, what he might have is a surface with his "wax" still on there, along with some Dawn components "stuck" to the "wax". He then proceeds to put his sealant on top, and decides that the "stripping" really helped his longevity.

When the reality was the surface wasn't "stripped", in fact, and this just occurred to me now, maybe the Dawn acted as some sort of primer, and while the sealant may not have been able to bond to the "wax", the Dawn surfactants were able to, and then the sealant was able to bond to the Dawn.

Anyway, I'm not sure if that conventional wisdom applies today with all the hybrid products we have. And BTW, I always thought D151 was 100% sealant, no carnauba.

[fightnews]

according to meguiars no wax or sealant can make layers. I think their position is paint will only hold 1 coat of anything. im not sure if they are saying whatever you use combines into one thing or what?

[fightnews]

I dont see why a carnuba wax cant sit on top of a fully cured paint sealant?

[Eldorado2k]

according to meguiars no wax or sealant can make layers. I think their position is paint will only hold 1 coat of anything. im not sure if they are saying whatever you use combines into one thing or what?

I've always sort of agreed with that... However I'm not sure I've ever heard them state that.


I dont see why a carnuba wax cant sit on top of a fully cured paint sealant?

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if sealant can go over wax.

[Setec Astronomy]

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if sealant can go over wax.

Hey, they always said that Opti-Seal could go over a wax--with an interesting reason. They (Dr. G) said that the solvents in the Opti-Seal would displace the wax and float it to the surface allowing the sealant part of the Opti-Seal to reach the paint.

[Eldorado2k]

Hey, they always said that Opti-Seal could go over a wax--with an interesting reason. They (Dr. G) said that the solvents in the Opti-Seal would displace the wax and float it to the surface allowing the sealant part of the Opti-Seal to reach the paint.

What ever happened the this Dr. G? Is he Ivan?

I've been on MOL for almost an hr. searching through D151 threads trying to find out what the heck the protection in D151 really consists of and I still haven't found a definitive answer! The only thing I've found out for certain is that it contains "wax" grrr...

[Eldorado2k]

I bet the WaxMaster knows the answer to this question...

[Setec Astronomy]

What ever happened the this Dr. G? Is he Ivan?

No, Dr. G is the owner of Optimum, he's in the videos with Mike on this page: Optimum Polymer Technologies: Advanced Polymer Technology is in every Optimum Car Care Product. opt car care, optimum car wax, optimum car wash, (http://www.autogeek.net/optimum-wax.html)


I've been on MOL for almost an hr. searching through D151 threads trying to find out what the heck the protection in D151 really consists of

Sorry, I read D151 but my mind said D156--that's all synthetic I'm not sure about D151 :(

[FUNX650]

Isn't D151 supposed to contain
carnauba wax as it's protection?


Or is it a carnauba/
sealant hybrid?

You be the judge.

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Bob

[FUNX650]

Remind me again, why isn't a sealant
supposed to go on top of a wax?
Serious question...

The following may be helpful;
(or, perhaps, a hindrance):


Sealant over wax? (http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/53443-sealant-over-wax.html)


The question about whether or not you can apply a sealant over a wax repeatedly comes up. Some say no and others say yes. I always thought that it makes the most sense to start clean for the best bonding. The answer seems to be, it depends on the wax.

Polymer Sealants

"Since urethane clear coat paint is both a polymer and has porosity, a durable bond is formed and provides the intended protection. A polymer forms a molecular bond with other polymers in a chain-like structure or polymerization, which involves the formation of chains of monomers to form a polymer.
Cross linking tends to increase strength and toughness, cross-linking consists of the formation of chemical bonds between chains, this usually takes from 12-24 hours (dependent upon local climatic conditions i.e. temperature, humidity, etc).

Cross-linking has the effect of changing a plastic from thermoplastic to thermosetting. Thus, it also increases strength, heat and electrical resistance, and especially resistance to detergents, solvents and other chemicals. They are a characteristic property of thermosetting polymer materials.

A unique aspect of polyurethane chemistry is that the hydrogen bonding acts as an additional crosslink. The majority (70%) of a polymer matrix cross-linking cycle occurs within 30 – 45 minutes of its initial wipe-on application drying; however it is recommended that a period of 12 - 24 hours is allowed for the cross-linking process to complete, otherwise polymerization and durability may be compromised

It forms a weak bond with an organic (natural) Carnauba wax as they only contain a limited amount of polymers ;( inorganic (synthetic) waxes however, are formulated with polymers, which enable molecular bonding or cross-linking
Affects of Strong Detergents
Polymer sealant forms a molecular bond to the polyurethane paint, think of it like a chain, they are formulated to be detergent resistant, so harsh detergents don't break this bond they attack the chemicals of the polymer and weaken its links."


Polymer Strength

"The physical properties of a polymer are strongly dependent on the size or length of the polymer chain. (https://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-####/138248-polymers-part-i.html#). Polymerization is the process of combining many small molecules known as monomers into a covalently bonded chain. There are three types of chain polymerization: radical, ionic, and co-ordination.

The polymers formed through the chain (addition) method are always thermoplastics because of the essentially linear nature of the reaction. A common means of expressing the length of a chain is the degree of polymerization, which quantifies the number of monomers incorporated into the chain

An inorganic based wax formulated from polymers used to seal paint with a thin hard barrier. They are very durable and provide a very bright, but flat silvery shine. This type of product is a compromise as it does provide durability but lacks the properties of a Carnauba wax lacking both colour and depth, and because of a polymer's inherent Covalent (molecular) structure it cannot mimic the properties of a Carnauba wax. (See also Polymer Carnauba wax Differences)

If not properly engineered, polymer sealants may crack, yellow or distort the optics of the paint surface. Most quality polymer based sealants contain amine (reactive alkoxy group) as well as a blend of resins and a small percentage of wax.

Sealants distinguish themselves by the type of chemically engineered polymer that is used, and the ingredients formulated in the emulsion system suspending the polymers, as well as the other combination of ingredients in the product.

The development of modern polymeric sealants coincided with the development of the polymer industry itself; sometime in the early ‘30’s.Common sealants include silicones, acrylics, urethanes, butyls and other polymeric types Since the bonding or cross-linking of polymers increases the toughness and strength of the material, it makes sense that the cross-linking of polymers is an essential element of modern synthetic automobile sealants.

Since urethane clear coat paint is both a polymer and has porosity, a durable bond is formed and provides the intended protection. A polymer forms a molecular bond with other polymers in a chain-like structure or polymerization, which involves the formation of chains of monomers to form a polymer.

It cannot form a bond with an organic (natural) Carnauba wax as they do not contain polymers ;( inorganic (synthetic) waxes however, are formulated with polymers, which enable molecular bonding or cross-linking

The molecular structure of all polymers are based on a chain of carbon atoms, chemically it is a molecule formed by the chemical union of five or more identical combining units called monomers. An inorganic based wax formulated from polymers used to seal paint with a thin hard barrier. They are very durable and provide a very bright, but flat silvery shine.

This type of product is a compromise as it does provide durability but lacks the properties of a Carnauba (Brasilia) wax lacking both colour and depth, and because of a polymer's inherent Covalent (molecular) structure it cannot mimic the properties of a Carnauba wax. "


Bob

[LEDetailing]

Bob,

Do you have a background in chemistry or are you just really good at recalling past information?

You seem to always have an answer that is documented with good/trustworthy info.

[Eldorado2k]

Bob,

Do you have a background in chemistry or are you just really good at recalling past information?

You seem to always have an answer that is documented with good/trustworthy info.

Another thing we'd like to know... Do you sort of look like "Doc" from Back to the Future, or the Skipper from Giligans Island? Lol.

Thanks for providing the info, Bob. I skimmed through it real quik and will be back to fully digest through the post once I'm done with the cars outside.

[The Guz]

Remind me again, why isn't a sealant supposed to go on top of a wax? Serious question because I guess it's early and I can't think of the answer.. Anyways, I've got an AIO job today and my plan is to use Megs D151 topped with ? Maybe D156, maybe Reload, Ech2o, or whatever else I've got but can't think of atm..

Isn't D151 supposed to contain carnauba wax as it's protection? Or is it a carnauba/sealant hybrid? If it's wax, then why does the label recommend topping with M21 or your favorite wax or sealant? Don't people constantly talk about spraying D156 over AIO's which contain wax? What's the big deal with applying sealant over wax?

It's perfectly fine to top D151 with D156. In the end D156 is still a spray wax/booster/maintenance product. No need to over think it. I've used D156 over white wax with no issues.

[PaulMys]

Bob,

Do you have a background in chemistry or are you just really good at recalling past information?

You seem to always have an answer that is documented with good/trustworthy info.

I've always pictured Bob as a cross between Einstein & Jimi Hendrix.........