Single Stage Black Paint on Vintage Race Car.

Geflackt

Geflackt

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Single Stage Black Paint on Vintage Race Car.

As a new poster here, I'd first like to thank everyone for all of the tips and tricks, and AGO for supplying great products. They've been very helpful on CC paints (modern British, German, and Italian sports cars) and now on single stage.


I'm currently in the process of polishing, then protecting, the older single stage paint on my 1935 MG race special. It's going to Simeone's museum for a short weekend display in April, so I'm taking the time to really clean up the paint along with everywhere else on the car. It has several racing seasons on this round of detailing, but I try to keep it as clean as possible.

Here it is in current form, with engine panels and interior removed for detailing and other work:

View attachment 66177



The paint is a single stage black from the mid-to-late 1970's, covering over aluminum panels. I'm not sure of the thickness, but the paint seems very hard. There are plenty of marks and cracks throughout, but this is patina I'd like to keep. What I want to correct and polish are scratches that have occurred through the years. Besides general scratching, I'm also seeing what could be shrinkage - it's like I can see the sanding marks under the paint if I have just the right light.

Sanding and blemishes visible at edge of light and lower:

View attachment 66181



Although there was no oxidation, I did go the #7 route as outlined by Mike Phillips. This did bring up some of the shine, mostly to the level I've had the last few years (usually before I put it in a local show). But I still wanted to attack the many fine scratches. The #7 did help some areas around the cockpit that had gotten dull.

Scratches that were on most of the car, seen here on a side panel:
View attachment 66178



Next step was to try some M100. I initially tried this using a yellow pad, but it really wasn't doing anything. Forgot I had a Griots fast finishing microfiber pad, so I tried that with M100. I'm using both 3" and 6" Griots polishers. Now it started making a difference! I did several passes in areas that really needed attention. There is still a way to go, especially on the panels containing louvers over the engine area, but the main area along the rear of the car looks so much better already. This car just has an infinite amount of sections to detail, aside from the black paint, there are details from a polished aluminum front end, to exposed brake and suspension areas.

Left side after a round of #7 and a few rounds of M100:
View attachment 66179



After a round of #7 and a few rounds of M100:
View attachment 66180



The other end of the side panel shown above, this time after a few rounds of M100:
View attachment 66182


Stone chips in leading edge of rear fender. Leave alone and just polish?
View attachment 66183


But I'm not quite sure where to stop with the M100 or the next few steps. I need to finish out the M100 step in the next few days. But after that, I was looking to use some of the products I already have - M205 and Menzerna SF3800 for polishing, then Souveran wax as a final. I've had decent success using the M205 and SF3800 on a red single stage paint, but the MG black paint I'd like to look as "liquid" as possible.

1) M205, SF3800, then wax? Pad type?
2) M205, #7, then wax? Pad type?
3) Other? I'm also open to trying products I don't have although I'm running out of weekends/nights.


I'll be racing again starting in June and I realize I'll pick up chips, but would at least like to have the car looking good at the start of the event, plus have some protection for the paint.


:)
 
Geflackt said:
Single Stage Black Paint on Vintage Race Car.

As a new poster here, I'd first like to thank everyone for all of the tips and tricks, and AGO for supplying great products. They've been very helpful on CC paints (modern British, German, and Italian sports cars) and now on single stage.
Click to expand...

Thank you for joining the forum and sharing this project. Incredible looking car. Maybe you can share a picture that shows the entire car?


:dblthumb2:
 
Geflackt said:
But I'm not quite sure where to stop with the M100 or the next few steps. I need to finish out the M100 step in the next few days. But after that, I was looking to use some of the products I already have - M205 and Menzerna SF3800 for polishing, then Souveran wax as a final. I've had decent success using the M205 and SF3800 on a red single stage paint, but the MG black paint I'd like to look as "liquid" as possible.

1) M205, SF3800, then wax? Pad type?
2) M205, #7, then wax? Pad type?
3) Other? I'm also open to trying products I don't have although I'm running out of weekends/nights.


I'll be racing again starting in June and I realize I'll pick up chips, but would at least like to have the car looking good at the start of the event, plus have some protection for the paint.


:)
Click to expand...


Both the M205 and the SF3800 are top notch fine cut polishes. I'd try both of them with a foam polishing pad and inspect the results. Should look good. Normally - single stage black paint is soft, as in the softest paint there is to work on and that's because the pigment is Carbon Black and the pigment itself is soft so it makes the resin, (paint), soft. The opposite happens to resin when you use a pigment that is hard like white pigment, which is Titanium Dioxide Powder.


But there's always exceptions to the rule. That black paint could be Imron, which is an epoxy paint that is incredibly durable and that would also make it a tick or two harder than a single stage lacquer or enamel paint.


If you want to get something that I find works great on everything and makes buffing fast and easy, get some BLACKFIRE One Step. This is a one-step cleaner/wax and I use it to clean up and polish paint after heavy compounding instead of a polish. It works like a polish in that it removes any haze left by an aggressive compound or fiber pads and it also maximizes gloss and clarity like a polish. Because it has some form of protection in it - it also leaves the paint protected. You can also top it with the Pinnacle Souveran. Best of all it wipes off super easy when you let it dry, unlike most compounds and polishes.

Here's my original review for this product - no mock-up by this guy, always the real deal.


Review: BLACKFIRE One-Step Cleaner/Wax by Mike Phillips

1971_ChevelleRestoRod_028.JPG





:)
 
I took the liberty to upload your pictures to your free gallery here at AGO so they could be "inserted" and then seen full size.


Here it is in current form, with engine panels and interior removed for detailing and other work:

MG_001.jpg




The paint is a single stage black from the mid-to-late 1970's, covering over aluminum panels. I'm not sure of the thickness, but the paint seems very hard. There are plenty of marks and cracks throughout, but this is patina I'd like to keep. What I want to correct and polish are scratches that have occurred through the years. Besides general scratching, I'm also seeing what could be shrinkage - it's like I can see the sanding marks under the paint if I have just the right light.

Sanding and blemishes visible at edge of light and lower:

MG_002.jpg




Although there was no oxidation, I did go the #7 route as outlined by Mike Phillips. This did bring up some of the shine, mostly to the level I've had the last few years (usually before I put it in a local show). But I still wanted to attack the many fine scratches. The #7 did help some areas around the cockpit that had gotten dull.

Scratches that were on most of the car, seen here on a side panel:
MG_003.jpg




Next step was to try some M100. I initially tried this using a yellow pad, but it really wasn't doing anything. Forgot I had a Griots fast finishing microfiber pad, so I tried that with M100. I'm using both 3" and 6" Griots polishers. Now it started making a difference! I did several passes in areas that really needed attention. There is still a way to go, especially on the panels containing louvers over the engine area, but the main area along the rear of the car looks so much better already. This car just has an infinite amount of sections to detail, aside from the black paint, there are details from a polished aluminum front end, to exposed brake and suspension areas.

Left side after a round of #7 and a few rounds of M100:
MG_004.jpg




After a round of #7 and a few rounds of M100:
MG_005.jpg




The other end of the side panel shown above, this time after a few rounds of M100:
MG_006.jpg



Stone chips in leading edge of rear fender. Leave alone and just polish?
MG_007.jpg




:)
 
Geflackt said:
Stone chips in leading edge of rear fender. Leave alone and just polish?

MG_007.jpg
Click to expand...


If you want to showcase the real-world wear-n-tear a REAL race car gets then polish over it and call it good.


If you want to fill in the rock chips and make it look better then

First - do al the compounding and polishing work.

Second - use the "Shoe Polish Technique" with Dr. Color Chip.


Watch this video




The best thing about the Dr. Color Chip system is if you don't like how your work turns out then simply remove the paint using the Sealact solvent and try again. Its a bubba-proof system that enables you to practice until perfect - or until your happy.



:)
 
Mike Phillips said:
Thank you for joining the forum and sharing this project. Incredible looking car. Maybe you can share a picture that shows the entire car?


:dblthumb2:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the note about the pic gallery. Let's try this a different way:

Natural habitat last Fall:
attachment.php


From a few years ago with other MG's in our pre-war class:
attachment.php


Was used in an ad by Savannah for tourism, and that's my friend in an Alfa Monza:
attachment.php
 
Wow what an awesome race car and still driven is very cool.

Now for recommendation I would follow Mike Phillips on this. He is the master of classic paints. And much more of cause LOL

Thanks for joining the forum and for shareing your car!

/ Tony
 
Mike Phillips said:
Both the M205 and the SF3800 are top notch fine cut polishes. I'd try both of them with a foam polishing pad and inspect the results. Should look good. Normally - single stage black paint is soft, as in the softest paint there is to work on and that's because the pigment is Carbon Black and the pigment itself is soft so it makes the resin, (paint), soft. The opposite happens to resin when you use a pigment that is hard like white pigment, which is Titanium Dioxide Powder.

But there's always exceptions to the rule. That black paint could be Imron, which is an epoxy paint that is incredibly durable and that would also make it a tick or two harder than a single stage lacquer or enamel paint.

If you want to get something that I find works great on everything and makes buffing fast and easy, get some BLACKFIRE One Step. This is a one-step cleaner/wax and I use it to clean up and polish paint after heavy compounding instead of a polish. It works like a polish in that it removes any haze left by an aggressive compound or fiber pads and it also maximizes gloss and clarity like a polish. Because it has some form of protection in it - it also leaves the paint protected. You can also top it with the Pinnacle Souveran. Best of all it wipes off super easy when you let it dry, unlike most compounds and polishes.

:)
Click to expand...

I'm actually surprised at how hard this paint is, but it does chip fairly easily(as seen by the fender chips, but there are plenty of others!). It's held up well for the amount of use the car gets. I don't think it's had any paint work except possibly the fenders and I had one of the fenders painted about 8 or 9 years ago. And I've never done this level of detail to the car in all the 10+ years I've had it, including as prep for several concours.

The Blackfire sounds interesting. The M100 has been surprising but a good bit of work. To skip through to Blackfire might be the ticket, or to use it at the end or beginning of a season.

I was leaning towards leaving the stone chips, but your note about a light touch up is what I need - I'd just like to take the focus away from that damage/patina.

Also, the sanding marks and blemishes I noted are only really visible unless you're looking for them. Most people looking at this car probably wouldn't even notice. I'm not sure much can be done about it and I'm reluctant to hit it with anything really aggressive.
 
Geflackt said:
The Blackfire sounds interesting. The M100 has been surprising but a good bit of work. To skip through to Blackfire might be the ticket, or to use it at the end or beginning of a season.
Click to expand...

Only comes in the quart size at this time, targeted at Pro Detailers but it's Bubba-Proof. You could also use it on any of your daily drivers or car hauling trailer. Nice stuff.



Geflackt said:
I was leaning towards leaving the stone chips, but your note about a light touch up is what I need - I'd just like to take the focus away from that damage/patina.
Click to expand...

Here's my in-depth, multi-picture article on using Dr. Color Chip. The key question everyone asks I answer in the article.

Do I fix the rock chips BEFORE or AFTER I buff out my car?

The answer is AFTER.

Here's the link to the article,

How to use the Dr. ColorChip Paint Chip Repair Systems




Geflackt said:
Also, the sanding marks and blemishes I noted are only really visible unless you're looking for them. Most people looking at this car probably wouldn't even notice.
Click to expand...



I'd agree with you. In fact I have an article on this topic,

The difference between a swirl and squirrel

Most people don't know the difference between a Swirl and a Squirrel...

For clarification...

This is a Squirrel
ScottsVetteScratch011.jpg



These are Swirls
CobwebSwirls001.jpg




Geflackt said:
I'm not sure much can be done about it and I'm reluctant to hit it with anything really aggressive.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it's better to learn to live with a few defects, maybe improve them but not try to fully remove them...


Here's my quote on this topic...

Words cannot describe the heart sinking feeling that overcomes you when you discover you've burned through the paint -Mike Phillips



:)
 
Should I use any sort of cleaner before applying the Souveran wax?

Occasionally on clear-coat polishing I use a light IPA before the wax stage. I'm reluctant to use an IPA mix on this single stage paint.
 
Geflackt said:
Should I use any sort of cleaner before applying the Souveran wax?

Occasionally on clear-coat polishing I use a light IPA before the wax stage. I'm reluctant to use an IPA mix on this single stage paint.
Click to expand...


No!

Never chemically strip old school singe stage paint - you will DULL it DOWN. I call this,

Working Backwards

Glad you asked. After wiping off the polish, apply the wax. I have an article that explains why, I'm not at work so harder to function on a forum.

Google

Misible oils Mike Phillips


:)
 
Geflackt said:
Thanks for the note about the pic gallery. Let's try this a different way:

Natural habitat last Fall:
attachment.php


From a few years ago with other MG's in our pre-war class:
attachment.php


Was used in an ad by Savannah for tourism, and that's my friend in an Alfa Monza:
attachment.php
Click to expand...

thats a super cool car,do you guys actually race them and push them hard,,,if you do don't you worry about wrecking?

,I did a 53 MG TD for a friend of my dads a couple years ago,,I turned out ok and he was happy with but it was severely oxidated.
It was before I found Autogeek online and I found out a lot of alternative ways I could have went about it.I wish I had to do over just to try all the different things.
 
That car is amazing.

A real piece of automotive history.

It must be a blast driving and owning it. :props:
 
Mike Phillips said:
No!

Never chemically strip old school singe stage paint - you will DULL it DOWN. I call this,

Working Backwards

Glad you asked. After wiping off the polish, apply the wax. I have an article that explains why, I'm not at work so harder to function on a forum.

Google

Misible oils Mike Phillips


:)
Click to expand...

Great note!! This is the link that I found:
Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

I've had issues, especially on black cars, of the wax getting a haze in spotty areas. A while back I thought it was that polish was left on the surface. After research and reworking technique, I found it was more water/humidity related and that I was just using too much on the application.

If some polish remains(usually at edges or where I would just plain miss a small spot), is the best method to remove that to just use a little polish on a rag to remove it?
 
Farmallluvr said:
thats a super cool car,do you guys actually race them and push them hard,,,if you do don't you worry about wrecking?

,I did a 53 MG TD for a friend of my dads a couple years ago,,I turned out ok and he was happy with but it was severely oxidated.
It was before I found Autogeek online and I found out a lot of alternative ways I could have went about it.I wish I had to do over just to try all the different things.
Click to expand...

Oh, it gets used and raced!!! Which is why my wife keeps bugging me that I'm spending too much time on this detailing project!

I push it hard on the track, but since last summer I'm breaking in a fairly new engine and I just rebuilt the gearbox about 2 weeks ago. Now THAT was a lot of time spent polishing gears(no synchros) instead of paintwork! The engine is 939cc and overhead cam - typical MG engine from the 1930's. But mine is beefed up with bits to double the power and be race ready.

Sort of rare is that this engine is not supercharged but rather I've gone with high compression(9:1) custom pistons and mixture by SU carbs. I've run this a handful of times in the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix, at Pocono, Lime Rock, Thompson, and Savannah(the track just across the river from the city).

It also goes to shows occasionally(boring), but we use it to go to dinners, local rallies/tours, and I've used it for errands and geocaching. Plus the occasional autocross:





Sorry for the distraction from detailing!

I too wish I had found the info on this forum a few years ago. On other cars with oxidized paint I've used other methods, but this #7 method would have been the way to go.

The one car I had I just left as a dull paint, but the others look decent now but were too aggressive - I may try the #7 method over the summer.


:)
 
Cool video!

Engine sounds GREAT!

I can't imagine shifting with my left hand... the whole right hand driving thing would be very foreign to me.

Lots of pleasure boats, ski boats and such have the steering wheel and controls on the right hand side. My Sanger was set up like a car, steering wheel and foot controls on the left hand side. Felt natural, especially at high speeds.


1970_Sanger_V_-Drive-Drag_Boat_010.jpg




:)
 
Geflackt said:
Oh, it gets used and raced!!! Which is why my wife keeps bugging me that I'm spending too much time on this detailing project!

I push it hard on the track, but since last summer I'm breaking in a fairly new engine and I just rebuilt the gearbox about 2 weeks ago. Now THAT was a lot of time spent polishing gears(no synchros) instead of paintwork! The engine is 939cc and overhead cam - typical MG engine from the 1930's. But mine is beefed up with bits to double the power and be race ready.

Sort of rare is that this engine is not supercharged but rather I've gone with high compression(9:1) custom pistons and mixture by SU carbs. I've run this a handful of times in the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix, at Pocono, Lime Rock, Thompson, and Savannah(the track just across the river from the city).

It also goes to shows occasionally(boring), but we use it to go to dinners, local rallies/tours, and I've used it for errands and geocaching. Plus the occasional autocross:


[video=youtube;j9r5NYgfrhw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9r5NYgfrhw[/vi



Sorry for the distraction from detailing!

I too wish I had found the info on this forum a few years ago. On other cars with oxidized paint I've used other methods, but this #7 method would have been the way to go.

The one car I had I just left as a dull paint, but the others look decent now but were too aggressive - I may try the #7 method over the summer.


:)
Click to expand...

Great Video,,,that looks like a ton of fun and the engine sounds great and like Mike said I couldn't imagine shifting with my left,even being left handed it just feels weird,,I have driven a few RH drive cars but they were automatic Subarus

I always wanted to do Autocross with my GTI but work and then totaling it out got in the way.
 
UPDATE!

The car is just about done for this round. Squirrels and Swirls - I had to stop somewhere. Bulk of the paint detail was done about a week ago, but the small details of brightwork, leather, and wheels/tires took a while. I could easily keep going, but wanted to get the other black car detailed for Spring driving.

Paint swirls and scratches took a bit of work. Did the #7 rounds, although it wasn't oxidized. Then M100 on a microfiber for multiple rounds until the light scratches were pretty much gone. Quick round with M205 on foam pads, then a final with the 3800. I don't think the 3800 really helped, though. Did a final round with Souveran - actually tried 2 layers but 1 is probably enough.

Here's the difference on the panels:
attachment.php


Tires: Used some APC and some kind of tire dressing I got as a gift(not bad stuff but don't normally use tire dressing) Left tire is just washed, not yet APC'd:
attachment.php


The dash is engine turned and coated, so a hand polish then a wax with Souveran. Carpets and seats not yet installed:
attachment.php


And the final, just about ready to go!
attachment.php


The black paint is now incredibly bright. With the contrast in the reflection of the lights, it actually hurts a little bit to look at the bright to black boundary. Amazing.

Thanks for all the help!
 
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