Water beading - different types
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Mike Phillips
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People love pictures of water beading on car paint.
Ive been in this business a long time and that's one thing that has never changed, people LOVE seeing water bead up on their own car and LOVE seeing pictures of water beading up on other people's cars.
Water beading is an indication of high surface tension. The higher the surface tension the smaller, taller and tighter the formation of water beads on the surface.
As the surface tension lessens, instead of water piling up on top of itself in and effort to get away from the surface it will overcome the tension and spread out.
Water beading is actually a bad thing because if there's anything corrosive in the water as it evaporates off the mixture of water and corrosive elements becomes more concentrated and the result is the paint gets water spots, usually some type of imprint ring or in worse case examples, Type II Water Spots which are actually crater etchings in the paint.
The only way to remove these types of defects is to compound or polish the paint and remove the good paint surrounding the imprint rings or crater etchings and thus level the surface till it's flat again.
And of course, the problem with this is paint is normally thin and all the UV protection is in the clear layer of paint, so the more clear paint you remove the less UV protection you have to last the paint over the service life of the car.
But yeah... water beading looks cool!
Here's some water beading shots of Bouncer's Capture the Rapture off my truck's hood a day or two after I applied it. Surface tension is ALWAYS highest immediately after application and removal as ANYTHING that touches the surface, like a wash mitt or microfiber towel, will micro-abrade the surface and remove portions of whatever the magical substance is that you applied, in my example, Bouncer's Capture the Rapture Hand Poured Wax.
Bouncers Capture the Rapture Monster Truck Detail
Ive been in this business a long time and that's one thing that has never changed, people LOVE seeing water bead up on their own car and LOVE seeing pictures of water beading up on other people's cars.
Water beading is an indication of high surface tension. The higher the surface tension the smaller, taller and tighter the formation of water beads on the surface.
As the surface tension lessens, instead of water piling up on top of itself in and effort to get away from the surface it will overcome the tension and spread out.
Water beading is actually a bad thing because if there's anything corrosive in the water as it evaporates off the mixture of water and corrosive elements becomes more concentrated and the result is the paint gets water spots, usually some type of imprint ring or in worse case examples, Type II Water Spots which are actually crater etchings in the paint.
The only way to remove these types of defects is to compound or polish the paint and remove the good paint surrounding the imprint rings or crater etchings and thus level the surface till it's flat again.
And of course, the problem with this is paint is normally thin and all the UV protection is in the clear layer of paint, so the more clear paint you remove the less UV protection you have to last the paint over the service life of the car.
But yeah... water beading looks cool!
Here's some water beading shots of Bouncer's Capture the Rapture off my truck's hood a day or two after I applied it. Surface tension is ALWAYS highest immediately after application and removal as ANYTHING that touches the surface, like a wash mitt or microfiber towel, will micro-abrade the surface and remove portions of whatever the magical substance is that you applied, in my example, Bouncer's Capture the Rapture Hand Poured Wax.
Bouncers Capture the Rapture Monster Truck Detail
Setec Astronomy
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- Aug 31, 2010
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This is reminding me of a thread on another forum, where we brought up that LSP from the 80's that was supposed to completely sheet rather than bead for no water spots, and it went over like a lead balloon because everyone wants to see beads.
But from a practical standpoint, what other measure do you have as to whether your LSP is still there, if you don't have beading?
BuckeyeR/T
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- Oct 14, 2006
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Beads are an addiction for me. 
A common mistake in this market is the use of the term 'sheeting'. When talking about surface water behaviour (in the big world), sheeting will be referring to hydrophillic behaviour - on a flat panel, the water will not form a blob, it will spread out to form a flat sheet that sticks to the surface. If you were to tilt that surface, it would NOT run off. What detailers mean by sheeting is in fact exactly the same thing they mean by beading - both are characteristics of hydrophobic surfaces. This time, 'sheeting' means that the water runs off as a sheet, however it does not stick to the surface so tilting will have it roll off. In fact, this sheeting is down to a surface which is just not hydrophobic enough to break up the 'sheet' as it flows over the surface. If the surface is very hydrophobic, it effectively repels the water from the surface more than the water is attracted to itself and, thus, the sheet breaks up.
This probably won't be popular to say but a surface which beads tightly is a better hydrophobic surface than one that has large flat beads (yet will seem to 'sheet'). In fact, it is quite common that a surface which initially beads tightly will behave more like the 'sheeting' type later, after it has degraded.
It is really horribly confusing to use the sheeting terminology this way! What is worse is that some detailing brands have gone so far as to sell products as being hydrophillic based on the terminology when the matter of fact is that they are hydrophobic, simply by definition of the name.
This probably won't be popular to say but a surface which beads tightly is a better hydrophobic surface than one that has large flat beads (yet will seem to 'sheet'). In fact, it is quite common that a surface which initially beads tightly will behave more like the 'sheeting' type later, after it has degraded.
It is really horribly confusing to use the sheeting terminology this way! What is worse is that some detailing brands have gone so far as to sell products as being hydrophillic based on the terminology when the matter of fact is that they are hydrophobic, simply by definition of the name.
zmcgovern45
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Pic from several months ago: 22ple VX1 Pro after 6 months beading from rain (on dirty car)
Setec Astronomy
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That bugs me too, the sealant from the 80's that I referred to earlier was indeed a hydrophilic, intended and marketed to prevent water spots, but a market failure. I know Mike Phillips was in that thread, I don't remember if it was on MOL or another forum.
EDIT: This wasn't the thread I was thinking about, but here is one, the product is Dura Shine: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...wax-gel-liquid-early-1990-s-unkown-brand.html
I always get a kick out of people saying that their LSP started with great beading, and now it's just sheeting, but it's still protecting.
M
Mike Phillips
Guest
Here's a related thread where water spots are a problem now.... but hey, water beading looks cool...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/68592-deep-water-spots.html
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/68592-deep-water-spots.html
Setec Astronomy
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So what do you think is the best solution, a hydrophilic LSP, everyone have a CR Spotless, or something else?
M
Mike Phillips
Guest
Ha ha.... great question and no perfect answer...
History has shown that if a wax, (or fill in the blank), doesn't bead water people will vilify it as,
A. Short lived
B. No protection
So if a wax company wants their products to have a "good reputation" in the Cyberworld and in the Real World, the product MUST bead water.
End of discussion.
In order to sell a product that by design will NOT bead water means somehow educating the masses and I've never seen this done successfully in my life and I have no confidence it could work in the future.
People like to see water beading, people expect to see water beading. People think this is a sign of longevity, (and to some degree it is a sign surface tension longevity), and people see water beading as an indicator that the substance they applied is also protecting their car's paint.
Perception is reality.
Ha ha.... great question and no perfect answer...
History has shown that if a wax, (or fill in the blank), doesn't bead water people will vilify it as,
A. Short lived
B. No protection
So if a wax company wants their products to have a "good reputation" in the Cyberworld and in the Real World, the product MUST bead water.
End of discussion.
In order to sell a product that by design will NOT bead water means somehow educating the masses and I've never seen this done successfully in my life and I have no confidence it could work in the future.
People like to see water beading, people expect to see water beading. People think this is a sign of longevity, (and to some degree it is a sign surface tension longevity), and people see water beading as an indicator that the substance they applied is also protecting their car's paint.
Perception is reality.
So you're saying if the paint isn't beading water then it can still be protected? And there is just a loss of surface tension?
FUNX650
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Could there be ingredients/chemicals in, (let's call them LSP's)...
that cause "surface tension"...but offers no "protection"?
And vice versa...
Offers "protection"...but doesn't cause "surface tension"?
Bob
zmcgovern45
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When you are washing your nicely protected vehicle, the "spray pattern" seems to make a big difference between beading and sheeting action on the surface.
If you use a traditional "shower type" spray pattern then you tend to create beading all over the vehicle... to me, this pattern best simulates rain compared to other spray patterns.
When you are done washing and then proceed with the "flooding/sheeting method" the water simply sheets right off the car and leaves only some beading here and there.
So I think it is not simply the properties of the protective layer, but the properties of how the water is falling that create the beading vs. sheeting. Therefore it can't truly be the fault of the manufacturers for having a product that "beads well" when in reality it still sheets well.
If after each rain shower, we all ran outside and dumped a large bucket of water on our car, we would have much less water beads, right? So maybe that is the answer... educate everyone to stand by with large buckets of water to "flood" their paint after each rain shower :dunno:
All in all, it seems like a catch 22... beading is better than no protection at all, even if it poses the potential of water spots.
If you use a traditional "shower type" spray pattern then you tend to create beading all over the vehicle... to me, this pattern best simulates rain compared to other spray patterns.
When you are done washing and then proceed with the "flooding/sheeting method" the water simply sheets right off the car and leaves only some beading here and there.
So I think it is not simply the properties of the protective layer, but the properties of how the water is falling that create the beading vs. sheeting. Therefore it can't truly be the fault of the manufacturers for having a product that "beads well" when in reality it still sheets well.
If after each rain shower, we all ran outside and dumped a large bucket of water on our car, we would have much less water beads, right? So maybe that is the answer... educate everyone to stand by with large buckets of water to "flood" their paint after each rain shower :dunno:
All in all, it seems like a catch 22... beading is better than no protection at all, even if it poses the potential of water spots.
M
Mike Phillips
Guest
I'm saying exactly that. I've discussed this with a chemist that I know and trust and he flat out told me some of the best protection ingredients don't bead water very well.
I'm not a chemist and don't want to become one at this point in my life so I like to keep things simple and I'll stick to what I posted previously and that is any wax, paint sealant and now coating that doesn't bead water well and do it for a long period of time will get a bad reputation of not lasting long and along with it not protection long. Of course this is from "people" not chemists.
Could there be ingredients/chemicals in, (let's call them LSP's)...
that cause "surface tension"...but offers no "protection"?
And vice versa...
Offers "protection"...but doesn't cause "surface tension"?
Bob
I think you could apply some ordinary table margarine to the surface of your car's paint and it will bead water very nicely. I'm not sure how long it will last nor how much protection it will over but people love to see water beading pictures.
Setec Astronomy
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- Aug 31, 2010
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As you've said, this has always been a hot topic. I remember a discussion about that LSP's have different ingredients in them, and that some that provide gloss/beading may be shorter-lived than other ingredients that are still there and protecting.
But if you are the consumer, how can you tell if your car is still protected when it stops beading? I know the easy answer is put some more LSP on, but some of us in the northern climes don't always have the cooperation of the weather whenever we want to re-wax our cars.
The reality is that the market is so tuned towards water beading that the manufacturers out there will struggle to source the materials to produce hydrophillic characteristics. I have looked into this extensively and the big boys out there won't be able to help - go to DOW and the automotive guys can only give you products which give a hydrophobic character. To get anything else, you have to chase guys from other market sectors who generally don't know enough about automotive paint to be a lot of help.
In some regards, hydrophobic is good. Hydrophobic surfaces are hard to dirty. Unfortunately this is very different from easy to clean (another detail that many sellers of products either fail to mention or do not know). Easy to clean surfaces require that water will be able to get between the dirt and the surface - in short, the surface needs to be very easy to wet. If it is hydrophobic, it is quite the opposite, it is very hard to wet so the water cannot lift the dirt if it has any degree of adherence. Hydrophillic - no bother - the water basically sticks to the surface and will often break the loose bonds between dirt and surface. Thus it is easy to clean. In fact this is the same principle underpinning all surfactant cleaners - surfactants reduce surface tension so that the water can wet the surface.
Protection in the absence of beading - yeah, it is possible. Easy to clean (real) windows are an example. Unfortunately that is far from easy to reproduce after market. If you started to see beading (even big flat beads), that would be a sign that the protection is diminishing. As for claims about protection remaining after beading has gone - well frankly I'll believe it when someone proves it.
In some regards, hydrophobic is good. Hydrophobic surfaces are hard to dirty. Unfortunately this is very different from easy to clean (another detail that many sellers of products either fail to mention or do not know). Easy to clean surfaces require that water will be able to get between the dirt and the surface - in short, the surface needs to be very easy to wet. If it is hydrophobic, it is quite the opposite, it is very hard to wet so the water cannot lift the dirt if it has any degree of adherence. Hydrophillic - no bother - the water basically sticks to the surface and will often break the loose bonds between dirt and surface. Thus it is easy to clean. In fact this is the same principle underpinning all surfactant cleaners - surfactants reduce surface tension so that the water can wet the surface.
Protection in the absence of beading - yeah, it is possible. Easy to clean (real) windows are an example. Unfortunately that is far from easy to reproduce after market. If you started to see beading (even big flat beads), that would be a sign that the protection is diminishing. As for claims about protection remaining after beading has gone - well frankly I'll believe it when someone proves it.
greatwhitenorth
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Great discussion, subbed.
FUNX650
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Wasn't it around the middle of the 19th century that Napoleon III ordered that a substitute (A: 'synthetic') for butter (A: 'natural')
be found/invented for his armies, and what he deemed was the "lower classes"...consumption"?
Too much time was lost in: Churning for Butter...
When he was dead-set on: Churning out an Empire!!
No doubt "People of Yore" had different Beading---or was that Bleeding---concerns, (save for the "shine" on the Emperor's soldiers swords)...
But there seemingly has been an interminable debate over the benefits/dangers of these two "spreads" ever since.
Long Live Margaric-Acid!!
Bob