Water Softeners, effective?

I have had some success with the inline canister water softener sold on AutoGeek.

The key for me was to turn the water pressure down and set the sprayer tip to Fan.

It helps with sheeting and makes drying easier, but you definitely cannot let it air dry like you apparently can with CR Spotless.

Doyle4281 said:

Has anyone had any luck with any in-line water softener systems?

I understand there are de-ionizers that are very effective and expensive, however I referring the inline units that I see on the many of the auto detailing supply websites. They appear to be refillable filters that connect inline with your hose, and claim to remove contaminants which cause water spots. Do any of these systems stand out as a worth while remedy to hard well water? Thanks

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Water softeners are very good at removing impurities and conditioning the water that comes through ..... but does nothing to remove TDS (known as Total Disolved Solids). So if you are looking to reduce the water spotting effect and the minerals that mark your paint (if the water is allowed to dry on the paint), the only options you have to compare to a dionizer is a RO (Reverse Osmosis) system.

If your hard water contains a lot of iron (typical with well water) you will have some added benefits from a water conditioner which has an inline iron filter. Those system can be identified by the fact that the side that does the water conditioning uses salt pellets and the iron treatment side uses chlorine tabs.

If you are dealing with hard well water, the best solution is an expensive one, which is to have BOTH a conditioner in series with a iron filter, which you follow with an RO system or a deinonizer. The main reason for the stacked system is that the TDS count on your deionizer won't last very long in the "safe levels" if the water is not pre-treated, which is going to require you to change the filters (or backwash) the system more often, which equals to more expenses.

Here are two questions I have and don't seem to be answered in this link.

1) How many gallons/minute can this inline filter handle (it does not look as though it has a reservoir). The reason why I ask is lets say it can safely handle 0.5-1 gallon/minute and you need 3-4 gallons/minute with a pressure washer... then what happens?
2) How many gallons can it treat before needing to be "regenerated" or before the filter needs replacing. If it can treat 200 gallons, then that would be 2 weekends for me (unless I used the filter for finishing rinse ONLY)

I have a heavy duty (whole house/shop) water treatment/conditioner system with an inline iron filter. It treats and holds 20 gallons and can treat about 1.5 gallon/minute with no drops in PSI.

Post-treatment (10 micron filtering membrane):
- Chlorine = negligible
- Hardness = negligible
- Bacteria, protozoa etc... = negligible
- TDS = 454 ppm (pretty dang high!)

So I still have some mineral in the water, although a lot of them do end up filtered. The only way to drop the TDS is RO or dionizer (and technically distillation). My system can treat 1000 gallons before regenerating (to renew the resin). The does resin needs replacing (in a normal household every 5 years), but the replacement is free. I just pay for the shipping cost to my house.

Hiya fellas,

I found this thread by searching, imagine that! I am really interested is getting some tips on something that just happened.

For year we've been good to go on water, our water softener has been amazing... UNTIL NOW! It just broke last week and will not cycle the salt through. Although I've already scheduled an appointment for the tech to come out and diagnose the problem - the hard water has been BEYOND atrocious.

The wheels, chrome, paint, windows... my goodness, it's literally the worst I have ever seen - like a layer of MILK all over the car. Bleh!

Anyway, my questions are (in preparation for this ever happening again):

1. Are there any normal house-hold type solutions I can use to remove water spots (I have always used Duragloss' product, but in a pinch I'm curious if there's something simple and cheap and easily accessible that will remove spotting/minerals)

2. Is there anything specifically, or a special/certain car wash product that I can add to the wash bucket to somehow condition and soften the water and neutralize as much as possible?

3. Lastly, does anyone know how much a Reverse Osmosis system runs by chance? It looks like Reverse Osmosis is needed IN CONJUNCTION with our softener to produce crystal clear water that dried flawlessly?

THANKS GUYS!

Doyle4281 said:

Clean Water Filter Kit


In-Line Water Softener With Fittings - Cleaning Tools - Car Washing - Car Care - Griot's Garage

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I have it and don't like it too much. It works a little but a lot of debri gets sucked up the bottom of the filter. I just have the filter version but I have a whole home softener. I have always wanted this.
CR Spotless Water Systems, deionization system, water de-ionizer, purified water systems, cr-spotless, spot free rinse, spot free car washing

Dynamic_Detailing said:

Hiya fellas,

I found this thread by searching, imagine that! I am really interested is getting some tips on something that just happened.

For year we've been good to go on water, our water softener has been amazing... UNTIL NOW! It just broke last week and will not cycle the salt through. Although I've already scheduled an appointment for the tech to come out and diagnose the problem - the hard water has been BEYOND atrocious.

The wheels, chrome, paint, windows... my goodness, it's literally the worst I have ever seen - like a layer of MILK all over the car. Bleh!

Anyway, my questions are (in preparation for this ever happening again):

1. Are there any normal house-hold type solutions I can use to remove water spots (I have always used Duragloss' product, but in a pinch I'm curious if there's something simple and cheap and easily accessible that will remove spotting/minerals)

2. Is there anything specifically, or a special/certain car wash product that I can add to the wash bucket to somehow condition and soften the water and neutralize as much as possible?

3. Lastly, does anyone know how much a Reverse Osmosis system runs by chance? It looks like Reverse Osmosis is needed IN CONJUNCTION with our softener to produce crystal clear water that dried flawlessly?

THANKS GUYS!

Click to expand...

There is no products on the market which serves to eliminate the water spotting due to drying of ionized/unfiltered water. The solids are in solution are cannot exactly be precipitated out without being costling a few pennies and/or creating other issues.

In a pinch I would tell you to buy some distilled water and do a rinseless or waterless wash.

Other than that, you are looking at a dionizer system like the CR spotless, which was shared earlier, or a RO system. The main problem with either of the options is they are costly to start with, and maintenance resins etc... is costly as well. Other issue you encounter is the gpm output is not enough to run a pressure water. As I shared previously, I do have a whole house water softener/conditioner and the TDS is still way up there. The addition of a residential RO would be $1200 and this would not produce the 3 GPM output I need for the power washer... basically you are stuck with a garden hose! The only other option is a commercial RO which would cost me $3000+..... not interested!

On a side note, I did investigate the CR spotless (with the TDS I have) and figured that the cost/wash of having a dionizer would be around $5-7 (initial investment and replacement resin etc..), and that was for the final rinse only. Not exactly what I would consider being financially savy. Does it work? Absolutely! Could I see myself purchasing one for production work? Nope!

Dr_Pain said:

There is no products on the market which serves to eliminate the water spotting due to drying of ionized/unfiltered water.

In a pinch I would tell you to buy some distilled water and do a rinseless or waterless wash.

Other than that, you are looking at a dionizer system like the CR spotless, which was shared earlier, or a RO system.

The addition of a residential RO would be $1200 and this would not produce the 3 GPM output I need for the power washer... basically you are stuck with a garden hose! The only other option is a commercial RO which would cost me $3000+..... not interested!

On a side note, I did investigate the CR spotless (with the TDS I have) and figured that the cost/wash of having a dionizer would be around $5-7 (initial investment and replacement resin etc..)

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Thanks for that great post!

I am going to plumb the pipes in the basement this week so my hose water is also being softened by the water softener, kind of pumped about that!

I also think next year I'm going to do the RO system as well - not just for the final rinse which is what I would use it for, but for drinking water as well. I did some research online, and saw a ton of models from $150 to $600... I actually didn't see ANY (even the name brand pricey ones) over $800... when you say $1,200+ do you mean including installation?

That is really interesting and education to learn they can't keep up with 3gpm output, but for the rinse, the hose is fine I suppose. Still... stinks.

$5 a wash for the deionizer isn't too bad... but wouldn't a softener with the RO take care of everything, and make the deionizer redundant?

Dynamic_Detailing said:

Thanks for that great post!

I am going to plumb the pipes in the basement this week so my hose water is also being softened by the water softener, kind of pumped about that!

I also think next year I'm going to do the RO system as well - not just for the final rinse which is what I would use it for, but for drinking water as well. I did some research online, and saw a ton of models from $150 to $600... I actually didn't see ANY (even the name brand pricey ones) over $800... when you say $1,200+ do you mean including installation?

That is really interesting and education to learn they can't keep up with 3gpm output, but for the rinse, the hose is fine I suppose. Still... stinks.

$5 a wash for the deionizer isn't too bad... but wouldn't a softener with the RO take care of everything, and make the deionizer redundant?

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Plumbing your water faucet is a plus! Just make sure to have a bypass valve so you can use "city water" to water the plants. Those plants need the minerals and "other things" being filtered/conditioned.

What you will have to figure out for your RO is the gallon/minute output, storage capacity of your RO and total production capacity/day. Most residential RO are rated to produce 30 gallons/day and have an outflow of something like 0.5 gallon per minute (well short of 3gpm). Normally they also have an under the counter 2 gallon storage tank for drinking purpose. In any case, anything more than that will produce a strain on the system. You could increase the storage by plumbing a 30 gallon drum and set it up to gravity feed a water hose but.....

I agree that you will see systems that range from $150-$800, but you have to compare apples to apples. Are they self regenerated or do you have to backwash them by hand. Do you have chemical additives or do you have to chunk and replace the resin. etc... The $1200 option is one that had a little more production capacity, lifetime warranty, self regenerating and only needed to have the resins replaced 1x/year (under normal household use... for drinking water). Add the strain to the system of 3-30 gallons/week for final rinses and you will see the life expectancy of your resin drop and then it is $100-$150 to replace the resin.

If you have a softener and an RO then you don't need a dionizer. The RO (higher quality I speak of) should have the TDS around 10.

The CR spotless is a nice machine, and does a very good job, but at 300 gallon I would need to have the resin replaced quite often at my house, even if I was to only use it for final rinse.

Dr_Pain said:

Plumbing your water faucet is a plus! Just make sure to have a bypass valve so you can use "city water" to water the plants. Those plants need the minerals and "other things" being filtered/conditioned.

What you will have to figure out for your RO is the gallon/minute output, storage capacity of your RO and total production capacity/day. Most residential RO are rated to produce 30 gallons/day and have an outflow of something like 0.5 gallon per minute (well short of 3gpm). Normally they also have an under the counter 2 gallon storage tank for drinking purpose. In any case, anything more than that will produce a strain on the system. You could increase the storage by plumbing a 30 gallon drum and set it up to gravity feed a water hose but.....

I agree that you will see systems that range from $150-$800, but you have to compare apples to apples. Are they self regenerated or do you have to backwash them by hand. Do you have chemical additives or do you have to chunk and replace the resin. etc... The $1200 option is one that had a little more production capacity, lifetime warranty, self regenerating and only needed to have the resins replaced 1x/year (under normal household use... for drinking water). Add the strain to the system of 3-30 gallons/week for final rinses and you will see the life expectancy of your resin drop and then it is $100-$150 to replace the resin.

If you have a softener and an RO then you don't need a dionizer. The RO (higher quality I speak of) should have the TDS around 10.

The CR spotless is a nice machine, and does a very good job, but at 300 gallon I would need to have the resin replaced quite often at my house, even if I was to only use it for final rinse.

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1. I've got some research to do
2. You're awesome

I am by No means a professional water guy but I have a little experience with water softners and RO systems as I put a commercial unit together for our farm.

First a little background, We use ro water for use with our herbicides and mixing our fertilizers. The impurities that make the water hard are calcium magnesium and others. You can get some herbicides that react in a negative way with these impurities and therefore lessen the addictiveness of them. Because We have used ro water We have been able to drop the herbicide rate and still get the results. I have three 2000 gallons tanks that I store the ro water. A water softer first and then a 6000 gal/day ro system. All from Culligan. All together it was a $8500 system. We use around 75000 gallons a year of ro water.

All the system requires is salt for the softner and new filters for the ro system every two years.

When I looked for a system for my house there were a few options, on demand or a small system that filled a tank in the basement and then you had a pump on the tank. An on demand system is very expensive and the other requires a lot of room.

After doing some research I decided Not to get a ro system for the house because the filters remove calcium and other minerals. When you drink the water it goes in your body and gathers those nutrients back. For example it gets calcium from your bones. I know It's a little far fetched but I read it on the internet and they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true....ha.

I have an alternative to both the ro system and softner and is much cheaper but is Not a proven method with lots of research behind it. Called structured water. The system I have on the farm is from Green Naturals. It is very simple, a short 5 inch diameter PVC pipe with special marbles the structure the water and align the molecules. I laughed at it myself trust me, however in testing on our crops it worked. A long story short the plant sucked up the water faster and utilized the herbicides and fertilizers better. I have heard these little PVC systems work great for washing vehicles. I will unhook ours at the farm and use it this weekend and report back.

If it works this would be very easy for all homeowners and mobile guys too.

farmernick said:

...Called structured water. The system I have on the farm is from Green Naturals. It is very simple, a short 5 inch diameter PVC pipe with special marbles the structure the water and align the molecules. I laughed at it myself trust me, however in testing on our crops it worked. A long story short the plant sucked up the water faster and utilized the herbicides and fertilizers better. I have heard these little PVC systems work great for washing vehicles. I will unhook ours at the farm and use it this weekend and report back.

If it works this would be very easy for all homeowners and mobile guys too.

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Now I'm listening!!!

farmernick said:

I am by No means a professional water guy but I have a little experience with water softners and RO systems as I put a commercial unit together for our farm.

First a little background, We use ro water for use with our herbicides and mixing our fertilizers. The impurities that make the water hard are calcium magnesium and others. You can get some herbicides that react in a negative way with these impurities and therefore lessen the addictiveness of them. Because We have used ro water We have been able to drop the herbicide rate and still get the results. I have three 2000 gallons tanks that I store the ro water. A water softer first and then a 6000 gal/day ro system. All from Culligan. All together it was a $8500 system. We use around 75000 gallons a year of ro water.

All the system requires is salt for the softner and new filters for the ro system every two years.

When I looked for a system for my house there were a few options, on demand or a small system that filled a tank in the basement and then you had a pump on the tank. An on demand system is very expensive and the other requires a lot of room.

After doing some research I decided Not to get a ro system for the house because the filters remove calcium and other minerals. When you drink the water it goes in your body and gathers those nutrients back. For example it gets calcium from your bones. I know It's a little far fetched but I read it on the internet and they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true....ha.

I have an alternative to both the ro system and softner and is much cheaper but is Not a proven method with lots of research behind it. Called structured water. The system I have on the farm is from Green Naturals. It is very simple, a short 5 inch diameter PVC pipe with special marbles the structure the water and align the molecules. I laughed at it myself trust me, however in testing on our crops it worked. A long story short the plant sucked up the water faster and utilized the herbicides and fertilizers better. I have heard these little PVC systems work great for washing vehicles. I will unhook ours at the farm and use it this weekend and report back.

If it works this would be very easy for all homeowners and mobile guys too.

Click to expand...

Having farming/forestry/plantation roots I understand 100% where you are coming from with using RO to increase the efficiency and prevent cross reaction between the products you are using and the "contaminants" of the water you use. I understand even more having been a biochemistry major before switching. I have no doubt that Culligan puts out an incredible product and won't debate you on your daily production of 6000 gallons/day with a commercial unit. The only question I would have for you regarding your system is what are your TDS (total dissolved solids) count post-filtration. The agricultural requirements, and the FDA requirements for drinking safety is one thing, but I can tell you that neither produce what is required for a spot free paint (if you rinse in full sun and do not dry right away). If memory serves me right, FDA requires TDS in city water to be no more than 500. Remembering what we did in our experimental plantations (forestry), we used water with around a 100 TDS count (since pure water has no "nutritional value"). CR spotless who SPECIALIZE and capitalize on spot free filtration system recommends that the resin be changed if the TDS counter shows 20.

So again, my original recommendation of comparing apples to apples do apply.

As for the structured water, well.... I will leave the basic concept background aside (don't forget the science background) and I will just mention that the process does not remove the minerals etc... it "structures" the water. Unless your car needs more bio-photon energy (also called Chi) I put money that this water will "spot" as it evaporates.

Doyle4281 said:

Now we are on to something. Keep us updated. Tomorrow I am going to use 10 gallons from my cousins RODI system for his fish tank. The Karcher units draw right from the bucket, so it should be enough for the rinse. His unit was under $200 and the refills are very cheap and infrequently replaced. I believe he said that he can make 75 gallons a day.

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Please don't quote me on this because I am not a fish tank RODI expert, but I have some reservation. I did do a little research before posting and from what I understand, you start with pure water in the tank with a TDS of 0. You then add your fish, food etc... and the system keep recirculating to maintain an environment that is "safe" for the fish. As you add more "stuff" to the tank, the system keep filtering so that you can keep adding more.... without upsetting the chemical balance. So in this self contained environment you are not "producing" new water from a "contaminated source" but rather maintaining a clean source, which is going to a lot less "stressful" to the system. Please correct me if I am wrong!?!

75 Gallons/day does not sound to far out there for a multistage system which "maintains" an ecosystem, but put the same system filtering well water or city treated water and I can guarantee you that your TDS are going to shoot up through the roof in less than 300-400 gallons.

Those RODI system are pretty neat! From what I gather depending on the hardness and other impurities you may need a conditioner, carbon and iron filter, followed by the RO membrane/resin micro filter, followed by the DI filter. I guess the question with your cousin's system (at ~$200) is: are you describing a single or a multi-stage system (I've seen up to 7 stages)??

From a reputable site FAQ I pulled this statement " DI resin is fairly expensive and will last only about 1/20th as long when used without additional filtration".... but a quick search of the net shows that a quality 4 stage RODI producing about 75-100 gallons/day costs close to $1000.

One point I will give you, which I did not take into consideration, is the self priming electric power washer like Karcher. I do have one of those and they are very useful (but does not compare to a 3 gpm monster). If you were to put a RO system to work producing and dumping into a 45 gallon food grade drum, then you could use the Karcher to do the final rinse. It does add more step, the cost of the drum, you still deal with the resin change or backwash, and more supervision to fill the tank (unless you are able to rig an electric cut off on a float valve. BUT because you have no chlorine in your water you will develop a "slim" on top of the water.... yup!..... but you will be able to use a pressure washer.