My review of the Flex 3401 and Rupes Bigfoot polishers

One thing I see so much on this forum is the talk of burning clear coat. I'm signifigantly more worried about strike through than getting the paint so hot as to discolor.

I feel like the Flex would do this much faster than any other DA machine. However, with proper technique or even something close I just don't see it happening. That's of course with a moderate pad and polish combo. If you put sand and dawn on there and go at it with a wool pad you're on your own.
 
Strike Through vs "Burn Through" vs Burning paint

...I'm signifigantly more worried about strike through than getting the paint so hot as to discolor.[\quote]

STRIKE THROUGH so is that the official definition for what most people call "burning through the paint"? Where you don't really burn the paint but cut through or remove the clearcoat exposing the base coat?
 
Great thread! I have a 3401 I use for heavy correction. Works very well with wool pads. I would have to try and strike through. I am a huge fan of the DynaBrade Random Orbital Head on a rotary too. If I only had one polisher for all tasks, it would be a 3401 with the LC Backing Plate duo. This can do it all and very well to boot!
 
Does the Flex 3401 has the ability to burn clear coat?
If you tip it up and concentate near the edge of the pad, which is a no no, you can burn clear coat. I tried everything I could think of on a junkyard fender with my flex to burn the clear coat. I pushed hard and bent the fender and didn't go through the clear. Then I tipped it up until I worked a one inch area near the edge of and pad and BOOM..it went through. It is something I would do with my PC and not have any trouble but I hated the PC. It just took too long. I couldn't imagine someone accustomed to the rotary going to a PC. That would drive them nuts. The flex isn't difficult. Use it on a slow speed until you get the hang of it which is about 2 panels. You can run it like a rotary floor buffer and drive it around. I like the Rupes as well. They run smooth and are quiet. When I use it on curves I follow the shape without difficulty. The concave areas are more of a challenge. When the leading edge of the pad gets to point there is a change in the angle you have to switch the machine to the other angle and use the trailing edge of the pad to pick up where you left off. It's tough to explain and a video would make it easier to understand.
 
If I only had one polisher for all tasks, it would be a 3401 with the LC Backing Plate duo. This can do it all and very well to boot!

I would agree. It's tough to beat and a true workhorse.
 
I have a PC, GG6 and the Rupes 15 You have too push really had to get any of them to stop rotating on speed 6. I love my Rupes 15 and next spring getting the 21 and since my insurance doesn't cover me burning through clear coat I'll pass on the Flex or rotary all day.

Pureshine brother...you have enough experience you'd have no problem with a Flex. A true rotary will go through quickly but you'd have try hard...very hard to burn through with a Flex. You would have to do it on purpose. I'd let you detail any of my cars with it right now..no practice and enjoy the look on your face how quickly you'd complete the job. I also respect your choice to use the Rupes. They are great machines and a pleasure to use.
 
Re: Strike Through vs "Burn Through" vs Burning paint

...I'm signifigantly more worried about strike through than getting the paint so hot as to discolor.
STRIKE THROUGH so is that the official definition for what most people call "burning through the paint"? Where you don't really burn the paint but cut through or remove the clearcoat exposing the base coat?

I classify them seperatly. If you look at the youtube video from sweatthedetails you'll see the paint turn brown from the heat. I suppose people could look at them as the same and it would clear up a lot if my mind viewed them that way.
 
If you put a black mark on the flex backing plate, how fast does the pad rotate while you're polishing with it? Too fast to see/count the rotations?

Anybody?

I located this Flex video from Mike here:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn_kVH3BVc&feature=player_embedded]How to use the FLEX 3401 Dual Action Polisher - YouTube[/video]
at the 59 second mark he shows the pad with a mark on it, and it only spins at about a half rotation per second or so, but that's not with a polishing load.

Later in the video when he's using it, there's no mark on the backing plate to judge by.

Is the forced rotation of the 3401 really this slow under load?
If so, then I could believe the comments in this thread that the Rupes 21 is more likely to burn through since the 21 can potentially (depending on pressure and other things) rotate several times faster, along with its larger throw.
 
cameras so not pick up rotation well. Look at a PC and it barely moves, but any movement is a rotation. I believe speed 6 on the Flex is 4800 OPM


So, if we do some hair brained math

4800/60= 80 osolations per second


So probably 10 revolutions per second at full power. maybe a little less, like I said it's hair brained math and not super scientific. Look at the orbital throw of the flex and see how many "positions" or orbit reaches it does per rotation and then you can do the correct math.
 
Great thread! I have a 3401 I use for heavy correction. Works very well with wool pads. I would have to try and strike through. I am a huge fan of the DynaBrade Random Orbital Head on a rotary too. If I only had one polisher for all tasks, it would be a 3401 with the LC Backing Plate duo. This can do it all and very well to boot!

That's exactly what i'm saying. I'm sure i could cut a steak with a butter knife, but it would be tough...:rolleyes:
 
The likelihood of a 3401 going through or burning through is low. Even though it is forced rotation, the pad is still orbiting so it's not staying in one constant spot like a rotary. Since it is not in one constant spot, it will take a relatively long time to generate enough heat to be an issue.
 
cameras so not pick up rotation well. Look at a PC and it barely moves, but any movement is a rotation. I believe speed 6 on the Flex is 4800 OPM


So, if we do some hair brained math

4800/60= 80 osolations per second


So probably 10 revolutions per second at full power. maybe a little less, like I said it's hair brained math and not super scientific. Look at the orbital throw of the flex and see how many "positions" or orbit reaches it does per rotation and then you can do the correct math.

According to the documentation, the rotation rate is 1/10 of the orbit rate. I checked this out early this year when I got mine, and verified that the 10 to 1 ratio is correct. That would put the max speed of the 3401 at 480 rotations per minute. Slower than the 600 RPM low end of the PE14-2-150 rotary.

When I was polishing my wife's Pathfinder, I did manage to burn the clear coat slightly. When it was re-painted, we didn't re-paint the roof. There was an area where the clear coat at the edge of the new paint was oversprayed.

The friend who had done the paint job told me I could compound it out, and I did. But, with a yellow CCS pad, and Menzerna FG1000, I slid the 3401 across a dip in the body where the front part of the roof is lower than the rear. Not holding it in place at all, just slid it accidentally across the area, and took off part of the clear coat, which was visible in the burgundy paint. It got repaired, and we discovered that the original paint on that part of the roof was extremely thin.

Will (the painter) told me that I could have burned that spot with any polisher, including the lowest power DA. And, that I probably could have caused that damage by hand without even trying.

Just a reminder to me that checking the paint thickness of any car you work on is a prudent move.

Jim
 
Just a reminder to me that checking the paint thickness of any car you work on is a prudent move.

Jim
True but the thickness of the paint doesn't tell you how thin the clear coat is.
 
Sucks about your clear being so thin. That's why I classify burn and strike though as two different things though. You didn't burn it with heat, you just went through it.
 
True but the thickness of the paint doesn't tell you how thin the clear coat is.


If you know it's never been polished or repaired then it's a fairly good indication. Even if not, since clear is the [typically] thickest part of paint you can look for numbers that will signify a high probability you can work it without hitting base.
 
If you tip it up and concentate near the edge of the pad, which is a no no, you can burn clear coat. I tried everything I could think of on a junkyard fender with my flex to burn the clear coat. I pushed hard and bent the fender and didn't go through the clear. Then I tipped it up until I worked a one inch area near the edge of and pad and BOOM..it went through. It is something I would do with my PC and not have any trouble but I hated the PC. It just took too long. I couldn't imagine someone accustomed to the rotary going to a PC. That would drive them nuts. The flex isn't difficult. Use it on a slow speed until you get the hang of it which is about 2 panels. You can run it like a rotary floor buffer and drive it around. I like the Rupes as well. They run smooth and are quiet. When I use it on curves I follow the shape without difficulty. The concave areas are more of a challenge. When the leading edge of the pad gets to point there is a change in the angle you have to switch the machine to the other angle and use the trailing edge of the pad to pick up where you left off. It's tough to explain and a video would make it easier to understand.
As a newbie in power tool for polishing, after reading your comment I need to think twice before jumping on to purchase the flex 3401 as my 1st power tool.
Being a carpenter son, I used quite a lot of power tool for wood work and renovation. Just never tried a car polisher before. Have no idea how hard it is going to be.
 
According to the documentation, the rotation rate is 1/10 of the orbit rate. I checked this out early this year when I got mine, and verified that the 10 to 1 ratio is correct. That would put the max speed of the 3401 at 480 rotations per minute. Slower than the 600 RPM low end of the PE14-2-150 rotary.

Thanks for that Jim. Are you sure it's not 1/20? ( the info I looked up says the no-load opm range is 3200-9600, and the no-load rotational speed is 160-480 rpm (or 2.7 to 8 rotations per second), BUT...that's without a polishing load.

Anyway, assuming that 2.7-8 rotations per second is the maximum (assuming somewhat less under load), that puts it roughly in the same ball park as the rotations per second that are attainable with the Rupes.

As far as "cutting power," and using the Rupes 15 as the comparison, the Rupes has a larger throw (15mm vs 8) by roughly twice, but the Flex has approximately twice the opm range.

If both machines were operated at the same opm and rotations per second, the larger throw would seem to give the cutting power edge to the Rupes. However, with a free-rotating centripetal spindle the Rupes could go to zero rotations, which obviously reduces cutting power.

From this I'd have to conclude you can't make a definitive statement about cutting power between the two, and the answer is really "it depends."
Under some conditions the Rupes could be higher, and under other conditions the Flex could be higher. Same goes for the Rupes 21 comparison.

From that it seems it would also be the case that "it depends" is the answer to the question of which one is more likely to burn or abrade through the clearcoat.

Comments or corrections welcome...
 
Thanks for that Jim. Are you sure it's not 1/20? ( the info I looked up says the no-load opm range is 3200-9600, and the no-load rotational speed is 160-480 rpm (or 2.7 to 8 rotations per second), BUT...that's without a polishing load.

I turned it by hand to see how many actual rotations went with an orbit. The ratio is definitely 10 to 1.

That's why I was confused about the maximum rating of 9600 OPM. They must be counting the strokes (oscillations) rather than the actual orbit to create a comparison figure to other DAs.

The label on the body of the flex says only that at speed 6, you will see 480 RPM at no load.

It's amazing how much consternation we can create about the various polishers for anyone who has not used one before. It only took one panel until I understood how to control the Flex and not have it walking away on me. The only really important thing is to keep it level with the surface being polished.

I never use it on the edge. It wasn't designed to work that way. It wouldn't be orbiting, just bouncing on the paint.

Normal human reaction to looking at the results is to increase the speed if it isn't doing what you want it to do. I also learned to not increase speed, just let it work a little longer. It's impatience (even with a rotary polisher) that leads to accidents. Just like in everything else, speed kills!

I have also acquired a PE14-2-150 rotary, specifically for things like using the CarPro rayon and velvet pads to remove orange peel on other people's cars. There are very few instances where I think that the XC3401 won't do the job.

I think that the Rupes polisher will do an excellent job as well, but when I was making my purchase decision I decided that I wanted (needed?) the forced rotation of the Flex.

If I were doing this professionally, I'd want a DA (GG6), a Flex 3401, a Rupes 15 and 21 (plus a 75) along with a PE-14-2-150 and either a Makita or DeWalt full size rotary.

As an amateur, I think a 3401 or a Rupes (15 or 21) would be more than adequate as a single machine. The GG6 would probably also make a good choice.

Once someone makes their decision, and purchases one of these units, their forum posts will always reflect their chosen unit as being the best.

I don't think someone can go wrong with any of these units. Any of them can and will produce excellent results, with the exception of the occasional defective polisher.

So, if you're undecided, research all of them, pick the features that are most important to you, buy it, and start getting results!

If you're coming from a normal DA like a Porter Cable, don't start with the highest speed. I found that I didn't need to use more than speed 4 to get excellent results.

Jim

PS - the strike through I caused came from using a heavy cutting pad and compound on original paint in a spot where the paint was extremely thin and there was a fairly sharp edge. Mix of old and new paint on the vehicle. I would have never used something so aggressive on OEM paint, except that we had some overspray at the edge point where the new was blendec to the old. My bad! Would never blame that on the tool, rather on the technique (or lack thereof as a rookie). Once was enough to teach me the lesson, and I'll never make that mistake again. Fortunately, I had a professional painter to clean up my error. Even if I hadn't, no one less than about 7 feet tall would have even seen it, as I could only spot it when I was up on a ladder and I'm 6'4".
 
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