Microfine scratches with no rinse wash

In my experience, over a year, with a black vehicle....you cannot get a car really clean with any no rinse method; even if you power wash the vehicle first. The nooks, crannies, tires and wheels are not efficiently cleaned.

If you are breaking out the power washer, why not a 2BM?

The only time rinseless wash saved me time was because I didn't have to wipe down the door jambs.

Are you aware that many of the "Rinseless" potions out there contain ingredients that hide marring? Gary Dean says so!

In my experience, you should only rinse only when you cannot use a hose & the surface is very lightly soiled.
 
What color are your cars?

So much of this is subjective, i.e, when you talk about fine scratches, we don't know exactly what you mean, because that phrase can mean different things to different people. I am of the belief, that a black car with soft paint will swirl over time regardless of what you do to it (I could be wrong, remember, I said, "I am of the belief").

Myself, I have one of these soft black paints on my car. I have been ONR'ing for around 6 years. I wash my car in the summer at least twice a week usually. I use one bucket, no grit guard, and a cheap $3 chenille wash bone from Walmart that I love. Granted, in the summer, my car isn't all that dirty, mainly just light dirt and dust (the bottom is a little worse.) My process includes getting my ONR wash bucket ready and sticking a wash mitt and one or two towels in. First thing I do is wash the bottom of the car with the towels. They never go back in the wash bucket. I don't dry at this point. Then I wash the entire hood, roof, trunk and windows with ONR. I might dip the wash mitt a second time while doing this. Then I dry it. Then I usually do one side at a time and then the back.

I'm not quite sure why I'm telling you all of this, but I think people go way overboard with the swirl stuff. I just polished my car with SF 4500 last weekend, but the paint hardly looks different in the sun (under the Flex light is different, but nobody sees that except me). Before polishing, the paint wasn't bad at all. Even up close the swirls it had weren't very noticeable. From ten, fifteen feet, can't see em.

I guess what I'm saying is, try to learn to live with a little bit of super fine stuff on daily drivers. I don't know that there's a process out there that will keep it perfect if you daily drive. Even if you use deionized water and let it air dry. You still have to physically touch the paint to remove dirt, you're still going to touch it to wax it, use spray detailer etc.

Polish it with a super fine polish anywhere from once every couple years to every six months, keep it waxed and try not to drive yourself crazy over it.

Oh to finish my wash process routine: After I'm done with the body I dump the water into another bucket and then use it to wash my wheels. Also, I've recently started drying with OID. It makes the surface super slick. I dry panels somewhat quick, without buffing, because if I buff right away the towel gets grabby. Ultimately the car will have some super fine drying streaks in it once it dries, but when I'm completely done with everything I go over the whole car and do a final wipe with a fresh, super plush towel. This helps get rid of the streaks that might have been left (really hard to see without a Flex light or equivalent). Again, I wait till the end, because the paint isn't as grabby then.

Maybe it's just my car, but as I'm doing the drying process, as the water/detailer starts to flash, the towel sometimes gets grabby. So I let it be and hit with a final wipe at the end.

It has taken me a long time to come to the right formula for me and my car. I guess that's what I'd like to get across more than anything. And I've read and watched detail stuff for countless hours. Over time, and experience, I think I've finally refined my process to where I'm content.
 
KMdef9 said:
What MF's are you using for your RW? Do you inspect them after they get washed before using them again?
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I inspect them to the point where my wife thinks I am crazy. If anything hard gets stuck in the towel to the point where I can't pick it out with a pair of tweezers, I cut out the hard stuff, and that microfiber towel gets marked for interior use only. I have a special box for those!

I am currently using the plush Chemical Guys Gold 16"x 16" 70/30 microfiber towels and the generic green 80/20 towels from Autogeek. I also have some 480 gsm 70/30 towels on order for the detailing session before I gloss-coat.
 
Also, I have no scientific evidence of this, but I think wash bones or some type of mitt are better than towels for washing. Maybe it's because towels have much place for dirt to go? I have no idea. I giggle every time I see someone say they drag a towel over their paint by the finger tips though. I think that's is overkill. My guess is most of the scratching and swirls come from the drying process. If you want, pat dry the vehicle. Though with ONR, I think you're going to have to buff it a little afterwards to prevent streaks. Again, try an instant detailer when drying. I didn't like it when I tried a couple years ago, because the paint was still grabby as the detailer was drying. Now though, like I said before, I don't buff it completely out. If it starts getting grabby I stop and wait until I'm done with everything except the "final wipe."
 
ChrisB2 said:
I inspect them to the point where my wife thinks I am crazy. If anything hard gets stuck in the towel to the point where I can't pick it out with a pair of tweezers, I cut out the hard stuff, and that microfiber towel gets marked for interior use only. I have a special box for those!

I am currently using the plush Chemical Guys Gold 16"x 16" 70/30 microfiber towels and the generic green 80/20 towels from Autogeek. I also have some 480 gsm 70/30 towels on order for the detailing session before I gloss-coat.
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I can't tell anyone how to live their life, but man, don't drive yourself crazy over this stuff. If it's not fun, what's the point?

(Took me quite awhile to get to that point and I'm still probably not all the way there!)
 
StuDLei said:
What color are your cars?

So much of this is subjective, i.e, when you talk about fine scratches, we don't know exactly what you mean, because that phrase can mean different things to different people. I am of the belief, that a black car with soft paint will swirl over time regardless of what you do to it (I could be wrong, remember, I said, "I am of the belief").
Click to expand...

My car is white and my wife's car is gray. When I talk about these super fine scratches, I'm talking you'd have to look REALLY hard to see them in certain lighting conditions. Let's put it this way, I doubt any ordinary person out there would see them after seeing how most ordinary people keep their cars...

StuDLei said:
Myself, I have one of these soft black paints on my car. I have been ONR'ing for around 6 years. I wash my car in the summer at least twice a week usually. I use one bucket, no grit guard, and a cheap $3 chenille wash bone from Walmart that I love. Granted, in the summer, my car isn't all that dirty, mainly just light dirt and dust (the bottom is a little worse.) My process includes getting my ONR wash bucket ready and sticking a wash mitt and one or two towels in. First thing I do is wash the bottom of the car with the towels. They never go back in the wash bucket. I don't dry at this point. Then I wash the entire hood, roof, trunk and windows with ONR. I might dip the wash mitt a second time while doing this. Then I dry it. Then I usually do one side at a time and then the back.

I'm not quite sure why I'm telling you all of this, but I think people go way overboard with the swirl stuff. I just polished my car with SF 4500 last weekend, but the paint hardly looks different in the sun (under the Flex light is different, but nobody sees that except me). Before polishing, the paint wasn't bad at all. Even up close the swirls it had weren't very noticeable. From ten, fifteen feet, can't see em.

I guess what I'm saying is, try to learn to live with a little bit of super fine stuff on daily drivers. I don't know that there's a process out there that will keep it perfect if you daily drive. Even if you use deionized water and let it air dry. You still have to physically touch the paint to remove dirt, you're still going to touch it to wax it, use spray detailer etc.

Polish it with a super fine polish anywhere from once every couple years to every six months, keep it waxed and try not to drive yourself crazy over it.

Oh to finish my wash process routine: After I'm done with the body I dump the water into another bucket and then use it to wash my wheels. Also, I've recently started drying with OID. It makes the surface super slick. I dry panels somewhat quick, without buffing, because if I buff right away the towel gets grabby. Ultimately the car will have some super fine drying streaks in it once it dries, but when I'm completely done with everything I go over the whole car and do a final wipe with a fresh, super plush towel. This helps get rid of the streaks that might have been left (really hard to see without a Flex light or equivalent). Again, I wait till the end, because the paint isn't as grabby then.

Maybe it's just my car, but as I'm doing the drying process, as the water/detailer starts to flash, the towel sometimes gets grabby. So I let it be and hit with a final wipe at the end.

It has taken me a long time to come to the right formula for me and my car. I guess that's what I'd like to get across more than anything. And I've read and watched detail stuff for countless hours. Over time, and experience, I think I've finally refined my process to where I'm content.
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Thanks for the advice. I'm starting to think I may be getting a little too OCD here since the wife's car and my own car look great compared to the cars we previously owned. I guess I am just going to have to experiment a bit more and come up with a method that works for me!
 
If you don't have one, DO NOT GET A FLEX LIGHT! You will go bonkers.
 
StuDLei said:
  1. Also, I have no scientific evidence of this, but I think wash bones or some type of mitt are better than towels for washing. Maybe it's because towels have much place for dirt to go? I have no idea.
  2. I giggle every time I see someone say they drag a towel over their paint by the finger tips though. I think that's is overkill.
  3. My guess is most of the scratching and swirls come from the drying process. If you want, pat dry the vehicle. Though with ONR, I think you're going to have to buff it a little afterwards to prevent streaks.
  4. Again, try an instant detailer when drying. I didn't like it when I tried a couple years ago, because the paint was still grabby as the detailer was drying. Now though, like I said before, I don't buff it completely out. If it starts getting grabby I stop and wait until I'm done with everything except the "final wipe."
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1: Yeah and I think a Merino mitt tops them all. But you'll not see me using one on anything but MY lil' red car, and even then it'll not be on the front/rear bumper(s) or the bottom(s) of the doors/fenders.

2: Glad I could lighten your day. :D
OTOH I'm more of the mind that folding a (heavy) wet towel will just add to the (possible) effect. (That is... swirling.) I can tell ya' though that if you don't want to have to buff it (any soft painted vehicle) out again.... you'll put as light a touch on it as humanly possible. ;)

3: :iagree:Although anything will have to be dried/buffed no matter WHAT it is.

4: I'd refer back to #3. Pretty much anything and everything needs to be buffed/wiped (by hand) to get it to it's final resting state. IMO (which might not stand for much) the slicker the product you can possibly use at this state THE BETTER. :D

In all honesty.... Rinseless isn't for me, just too big of a chance of marring. I end up with a huge mess in the garage when I've tried it, or HAD TO DO IT. (Like in the middle of winter.) Both from many many towels and sponges, as well as a CRAP-LOAD of 'juice'. I'd much rather just use some sort of rinseless media as a precursor (to soak it down then an ever so slight wipe) then move to a FC&S/AW mix and go over it as lightly as possible the first time. Then finish it with the aforementioned Korean 500's. :props:
 
I agree with the above posts it may be in your drying method. I also like the wash mitt and two bucket method. The wash mitt glides over paint much better than a regular microfiber. When I dry a car I do not use a waffle weave. I use a damp microfiber rung out from the ONR solution. I spray each panel with Auqawax and then wipe it off with a damp microfiber, then buff the panel to a high shine with dry microfiber . I believe you should always dry the car with a damp microfiber with a drying aid to avoid scratches or dirt that you may have missed on the wash (quick detailer, spray wax, or Auqawax)
 
I had the same issue when I used a waffle weave and rinseless. I have since switched my drying towels to the edgeless avalanche super plush or the everest 1100 from the rag company. It was a dramatic change. I also use the eagle edgeless as my rinseless towels.
 
I will still go to rinseless washes from time to time or maybe do a foam gun rinse or waterless soak 1st. But the biggest change I've made is going from microfiber towels to the wash mitt. Unless it's spot duty touch upwaterless or rinseless or really minor car wash it's a wash mitt (cobra Chenille) which I roll the Mitt to limit how much dragging takes place on the paint. I think that's probably one of the most significant changes I've made recently that really helped. I try to be careful how much use my mitt gets with a traditional wash but with a rinseless I know I have to be really on point.
 
Rsurfer said:
AGOatemywallet said:
Are you aware that many of the "Rinseless" potions out there contain ingredients that hide marring? Gary Dean says so!



I find that hard to believe, even if Gary Dean said so.
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Why do you find it, "hard to believe"?

Where did you read or hear that they don't?

Please note that I said "many" contain ingredients that hide marring. Meguiar's D114 purportedly, "Leaves nothing behind"
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AGOatemywallet said:
Rsurfer said:
Why do you find it, "hard to believe"?

Where did you read or hear that they don't?

Please note that I said "many" contain ingredients that hide marring. Meguiar's D114 purportedly, "Leaves nothing behind"
Click to expand...

On the other hand, show me where a no rinse hides swirls. And I mean any rinseless wash. Your giving me an example of a wash that leaves nothing behind, not the same thing as covering up swirls.
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Kamakaz1961 said:
Man sorry to hear what you are going through. I too use rinse-less wash as I live in drought stricken CA. Your technique IMO is sound. However, the only difference that I do is a 2-Bucket 2 Grit guard method. I use a MF wash mitt or the Incredimitt by MF Madness. I will saturate each panel and gently glide my mitt across the panel (no more than 2-times per section). Rinse and then dry each section used. As for the Spray bottle I use a higher concentration of RW mixture and then RW (mitt) with the wash bucket.

Using the wash mitt and cleaning it each time in the rinse bucket (scrubbing, cleaning and rinsing then on to the Wash bucket); I feel this is the safer route and I know I am getting rid of the dirt with the scrubbing in the rinse bucket.

As for the MF towels I use are the MF Drying towels (not Waffle Weaves). If I can blow the excess water off with my Sidekick I will. I use 2 towels when I dry. 1 large one to get most of the water off the other is to get the rest off.
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I'm also a recent rinseless convert and this is pretty much how I do it. I just started using the Megs MF mitt and like how it feels like it's gliding over the paint.

My drying method is slightly different. After washing I spray on a little QD, usually GDIUDJ, them just drag a Cobra guzzler waffle weave (no pressure just drag it over the surface) to get most of the water and then follow up with a medium plush mf towel.
 
Here's my crazy OCD process: I presoak with ONRWW at QD dilution before wiping the panel. Then I actually don't dry until I wipe down the whole car. That way I don't risk contaminating my drying towels on dirty panels. After washing the whole car, I then go back and presoak with QD dilution and I also spritz a little OCW at the same time. My 2nd wipe down then accomplishes "drying", picking up leftover dirt and grime from the first wipe down, AND waxing all at the same time. Lastly, I gently buff with clean towels to remove excess OCW. If the car is a little dirtier I presoak with Opticlean because it has more lubrication. If it's even dirtier but not to the point of pressure washing, I use a handheld pressure sprayer and liberally spray the car down with ONR to physically displace any dirt I see off the paint. I typically use 12 edgless fluffy towels for washing and 10-12 530 GSM towels for drying/waxing wipdown.
 
VP Mark said:
Microfiber towels are not for washing cars as a wash media. Microfiber wash mitts are for washing cars. When you use towels to wash, there is nowhere for the dirt to go.
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As someone who 1st started washing his car exclusively rinseless and sometimes waterless that was a big aha for me
 
AGOatemywallet said:
In my experience, over a year, with a black vehicle....you cannot get a car really clean with any no rinse method; even if you power wash the vehicle first. The nooks, crannies, tires and wheels are not efficiently cleaned.

If you are breaking out the power washer, why not a 2BM?

The only time rinseless wash saved me time was because I didn't have to wipe down the door jambs.

Are you aware that many of the "Rinseless" potions out there contain ingredients that hide marring? Gary Dean says so!

In my experience, you should only rinse only when you cannot use a hose & the surface is very lightly soiled.
Click to expand...
Even though I resonate a little bit with where you are coming from, the reference to what Gary Dean said was inaccurate. He mentions Waterless washes will lead to micro scratches and that those washes generally leave something behind to fill them. In fact you are referring to someone who is also famous for his method of rinseless washes and part of what his product Infinite Use Detail Juice is marketed for.
 
Lolz.

They can't even make a glaze to hide defects worth a crap - no less a rinseless wash. I like GD, but that claim is out there.
 
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