VW Scandal

I'm going to take the car owners side in the diesel engine/pollution mess.

If I knew that "my diesel" could get hugely improved performance and mpg with a 40% increase in tailpipe emissions I would buy the programmer at once.

And when it came time for a SMOG check I would re-install the factory tune. And pass SMOG

No shits would be given.

Perhaps it's time to reign in the government's ability to control the population's buying choices in automobiles, guns, food, and medicines. And a whole lot of other things.
 
FUNX650 said:
VW...
being embroiled in some "scandal"?

Hasn't that always been part-and-parcel
of its illustrious history?




Bob
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Bob brother... sometimes you just crack me up! :laughing:

BTW, liked your next reply, BIG TIME. :props:

For those that didn't see it... This Week with John Oliver did a section on the VW ordeal.
(Warning... language at the end, in the parody commercial isn't exactly 'forum worthy'.)

 
Let's be honest....the only people who will care about that are the hippies that bought the TDI..not the regular people who bought it for fuel economy, but the hippies.

There, my .02c.
 
oldmodman said:
I'm going to take the car owners side in the diesel engine/pollution mess.

If I knew that "my diesel" could get hugely improved performance and mpg with a 40% increase in tailpipe emissions I would buy the programmer at once.

And when it came time for a SMOG check I would re-install the factory tune. And pass SMOG

No shits would be given.

Perhaps it's time to reign in the government's ability to control the population's buying choices in automobiles, guns, food, and medicines. And a whole lot of other things.
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I agree with you that in the above scenario, it would be YOUR choice to affect both performance and emissions. I think the difference lies in VW removing any choice from their customers and fooling everyone into thinking their "clean" diesel technology was anything but. The choice was taken away from the customer.
 
oldmodman said:
If I knew that "my diesel" could get hugely improved performance and mpg with a 40% increase in tailpipe emissions I would buy the programmer at once.
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Yeah, that wouldn't be so bad...except it's 40 times, not 40%...that's 4000%.
 
Except it's not 40 times the tailpipe emissions, just the NOx emissions. In fact, the tests only showed 5-35 times the NOx limit. Still blows the limit, but it's not constantly spewing 40x the legal limit on NOx. Re-activating the EGR actually increases total tailpipe emissions, and as the EGR gradually fouls the intake system and valves, it will likely make the emissions still worse. Deleting the EGR in my turbodiesel is one of the best things I've done to my car, and I'm ok with the choice I made.
 
SameGuy said:
Except it's not 40 times the tailpipe emissions, just the NOx emissions. In fact, the tests only showed 5-35 times the NOx limit. Still blows the limit, but it's not constantly spewing 40x the legal limit on NOx. Re-activating the EGR actually increases total tailpipe emissions, and as the EGR gradually fouls the intake system and valves, it will likely make the emissions still worse. Deleting the EGR in my turbodiesel is one of the best things I've done to my car, and I'm ok with the choice I made.
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Yes, I know it's NOX, and that the reports were "up to 40 times". That gets to be a slippery slope when you suggest that emissions controls aren't really worth it because eventually they won't work...hey, why bother at all, right? We could be just like China and have to shut all the factories down when we have to do things like host the Olympics or...breathe.

Part of the problem here is most people in this debate aren't old enough to remember how bad the air was here, say, in NYC in the 50's, or LA in the 60's (or Lake Erie in the 70's). It's easy to think that all this stuff doesn't make much difference. Perspective is everything.
 
The US government is over $18tril in debt, I don't really care about the VW scandal. Or maybe we should look at the over $97tril in unfunded liabilities...
 
@Setec Astronomy. I'm not arguing, but I am among those who "act local, think global." I choose to drive a car that easily gets 50 mpg combined without even trying, and on many of my drives gets closer to 70 mpg. My car's "tailpipe emissions" are substantially lower than those of just about every other ICE car on the road. I don't believe I've ever mentioned that emission controls "aren't worth it," just that EGR was always a flawed kludge that has somehow been around for decades despite countless examples of its negative aspects.
 
SameGuy said:
@Setec Astronomy. I'm not arguing, but I am among those who "act local, think global." I choose to drive a car that easily gets 50 mpg combined without even trying, and on many of my drives gets closer to 70 mpg. My car's "tailpipe emissions" are substantially lower than those of just about every other ICE car on the road. I don't believe I've ever mentioned that emission controls "aren't worth it," just that EGR was always a flawed kludge that has somehow been around for decades despite countless examples of its negative aspects.
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Out of curiosity, what are you driving? The only car I know of that can get close to that is a Prius. Would totally like to buy something in your mpg range.
 
2006 smart fortwo, with a 799 cc turbodiesel, 40 hp and 64 lb-ft stock. Remapped to about 54 hp and 90 lb-ft. Driven at normal US freeway speeds, no, the fuel economy is nothing to write home about -- aerodynamics win out when dealing with such low power -- but at double-nickel on back country roads 70 mpg is easy. My daily commute to work on suburban roads I usually get 60-65 mpg unless traffic causes me to take a section of freeway, in which case it drops to maybe 50 mpg. The tune and EGR delete made my (irrelevant) 0-60 drop by about 30% while fuel economy went up about 10% -- more torque at lower revs means I'm able to shift up at lower speeds and cruise in a higher gear.

FWIW, I'm always on the lookout for an original Insight, still the fuel-efficiency King in North America.
 
Oldmodman said:

If I knew that "my diesel" could get hugely improved performance and mpg with a 40% increase in tailpipe emissions I would buy the programmer at once.

And when it came time for a SMOG check I would re-install the factory tune. And pass SMOG

No shits would be given.

Perhaps it's time to reign in the government's ability to control the population's buying choices in automobiles, guns, food, and medicines. And a whole lot of other things.
Click to expand...

If more felt like you & did what you suggest, the gains made in pollution would be negated or reversed.

Automobiles & Food have become MUCH safer due to govt. responsibility/interaction, designed to keep the public safe. Your buying choices have to meet, (Auto, Food) have to meet a minimum standard so as to be safe for the public. Guns are exempt from product liability, mostly! And the 2nd amendment, confirmed by the supreme court insures you have the right to purchase, even if you are insane & want to bu by avoiding, public safety measures.

Richy said:

I think the difference lies in VW removing any choice from their customers and fooling everyone into thinking their "clean" diesel technology was anything but. The choice was taken away from the customer.
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Agree! Probably cheaper to fool with software than engineer a proper fix for th known problem. Greed!!!!!

Setec Astronomy Said:

Part of the problem here is most people in this debate aren't old enough to remember how bad the air was here, say, in NYC in the 50's, or LA in the 60's (or Lake Erie in the 70's). It's easy to think that all this stuff doesn't make much difference. Perspective is everything.
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Right On! High Five Bro.

EliteDetailing said:

The US government is over $18tril in debt, I don't really care about the VW scandal. Or maybe we should look at the over $97tril in unfunded liabilities...
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This only looking at one side of the equation, and is very deceiving. Throwing out numbers callously like this is generally, meant to imply that on side is doing a terrible job. If your going to though out debt numbers, you have to compare that to assets. You then get a ratio of debt/equity, which clearly, says how good or bad the economy truly is:

It's like proclaiming how much debt you have (house payments, credit card bills etc), but not looking at your (income, savings, & assets).

It's quite a different story how & what is driving, debt. Depends on what side of the political spectrum, your on, as to what's causing debt to increase.

Business is about money & acquiring money, if we cheat, take a shortcut, we can increase profits, vs what's the chance of being caught, & how much damage could happens, if caught. Who catches the cheaters? Who holds them accountable? What team, tries to hamper the ability to catch cheaters? Who's uninformed at the polls?
 
Since I own a diesel BMW, I suppose I have a dog to hunt in this...but nevertheless it is a real interesting story.

So far it seems that in 2009, VW purchased software from Bosch to run their new line of diesel cars. When they got the software, obviously it had various test modes built in as they developed the software and cars. However, VW left the test modes in, despite the warning from Bosch. These are still there. Who decided to leave them active is really the question at hand.

In the argument of test vs real world, lets draw an analogy: Many have taken entrance exams or similar to go to university/college. These are standardized tests. These tests are designed to measure what you have learned in preparatory school, and judge your ability to succeed in college. So to prepare, do you review everything you have ever learned, grade by grade, or do you prepare for the test itself? Of course, we all study for the test, understanding format, types of questions and sample questions. This is completely comparable to cars 'studying' for the test vs 'real world'. Does your US SAT score truly reflect what you learned and know? Most would argue it does not, and the same can be said for emissions lab tests.

Now, there is lots of arguments about how VW or even BMW perform in 'real world' vs testing. I suspect that EVERY car, yes even hybrids, will have much worse emissions in real world testing than in lab testing. One primary reason is that real world testing uses air from, well, the real world. Labs have fresh air, often filtered per test requirements, so that the test is repeatable. Real world has air coming from the car in front, so the input is already much dirtier than the test.

A great article on this topic is found in Motorsport magazine from the UK. The F1 world is all worked up about this because VW was on the verge of joining F1 just before this story broke. Most assume that VW will not join F1 as a result of this issue.

What now for VW? - Road - Motor Sport Magazine
 
Good Post Mr. Roguerobot! You can say the same about MPG on the sticker vs real world results.

Also, the more you look (dig) deeper into the story, it's not always like the eye-catching, headlines, or there's always more to the story.

My hunch "what now for VW" it's a hiccup, & soon will be history.
 
Good article Mr Robot!

Interference with regulators also needs to factored in:

Political pressure and scientific integrity

In April 2008, the Union of Concerned Scientists said that more than half of the nearly 1,600 EPA staff scientists who responded online to a detailed questionnaire reported they had experienced incidents of political interference in their work. The survey included chemists, toxicologists, engineers, geologists and experts in other fields of science. About 40% of the scientists reported that the interference had been more prevalent in the last five years than in previous years. The highest number of complaints came from scientists who were involved in determining the risks of cancer by chemicals used in food and other aspects of everyday life.[97]

Conflicting political powers

The White House maintains direct control over the EPA, and its enforcements are subject to the political agenda of who is in power. Republicans and Democrats differ in their approaches to, and perceived concerns of, environmental justice. While President Bill Clinton signed the executive order 12898, the Bush administration did not develop a clear plan or establish goals for integrating environmental justice into everyday practices, which in turn affected the motivation for environmental enforcement.[109]


Note one team relentlessly calls for eliminating, rule makers!
 
The crisis is an embarrassment for Germany, which has for years held up Volkswagen as a model of its engineering prowess and has lobbied against some tighter regulations on automakers
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Tighter regulations equals more expense, less profit. GREED

Full Article:
https://news.yahoo.com/vw-ceo-says-comprehensive-plan-tackle-diesel-issues-073910827--finance.html

Damage control begins, own up to the problem, assure customers it will be taken care of, promise it won't happen going forward, pay your fines, soon the company will be good again.

Meanwhile lobby hard, for loosening those draconian environmental rules.
 
Today's WSJ - VW may/probably will not face criminal wrongdoing in the US. Seems a long ago compromise, with those advocating for less stringent environmental laws, created a loophole, which may allow the AG not to seek charges.
 
Ricorocks said:
Today's WSJ - VW may/probably will not face criminal wrongdoing in the US. Seems a long ago compromise, with those advocating for less stringent environmental laws, created a loophole, which may allow the AG not to seek charges.
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Well, that's a kick in the head--this seems pretty straightforward, black and white--especially the report I read today about how the urea injection system was going to cost $335/car, and VW finance vetoed that as being too expensive--so engineering solved it a different way. That plus Bosch (who apparently provided the software) advising VW it would be illegal if used in production cars.
 
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