Coating WITHOUT Correction??

[tdekany]

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone-as far as I know, every customer who pays for a detail, does it to have a shiny finish. As detailiers, our job is to deliver a shiny finish. Part of detailing is to polish the paint. That is not a step you should ever skip. PREP is the key. Unless someone just wants a wash: all your packages should include a polishing step. You don't try to "sell" polishing anymore than trying to convince a customer a jiffy lube to also replace the oil filter. That would be silly. It is part of an oil change. The only difference is that most of your customers are clueless about detailing while those same people know that the oil filter needs to be also replaced. Have you ever been asked if you wanted the filter also replaced at the time of an oil change? That is in fact what you are trying to do here - don't you think it is silly? Btw, if your customer runs his/her car through car washes, and that is your reason not to polish his/her car, why do you even wax that finish? You know that the protection will be stripped in no time. Right?

As far as your justification for your standards by pointing out how cars look at car shows? I think that is the issue here. You provide a service that you charge for. You are comparing yourself to a DIY person.

That is the problem right there. This is a service industry and it has EVERYTHING to do with the customer. It is absolutely 100% about the customer's perception of value added. You can't force what we see and our standards onto them. This stance reminds me of some gun forums. Someone wants a cheap plinker rifle and the gungho guys will blast anyone for Non-operator grade choices.

Its nice that you get all customers willing to spend the coin on a full correction and coating. Most of us don't work in that niche. My customers are not compliant about what I think they should pay me to do with THEIR car. If I had the stance of "I must polish or I won't put a lsp on your car." They would go down the road and I wouldn't get paid. Most of what I've seen is where I am the only time their car gets attention, and again they don't want to spend the money for a polish. Why? I'm honest. I'll straight up tell them it is pointless to pay the money and a waste of my time if they are going to drive through a car wash. Then you have the people that live on land and their vehicle gets driven around it and scratched by branches. I don't blame them. I did a sealant without polishing on a 6mo old car. I talked to her about the process and products. I even had my car right there and showed her the difference between a polished car and one that wasn't. In the end she knew she would let the dealership drive her car through their wash and opted not to spend the money. She also wanted the longer protection of a sealant compared to a wax so, thats what I used. I did another customer without polish. This was a high milage vehicle. I used BFMS on it. First thing out of her mouth, "It looks better than new." Her husband stood staring at it for 15 min and was amazed at how well it cleaned up. Its going on 5 mo, and I heard that her daughter drove it and wanted whatever I put on her mom's tahoe on her car. I made my customers happy and I know it exceeded their expectations from what has been said. If that makes me a hack in your eyes then so be it. You aren't a customer so your opinion means nothing in my transactions.

20 min to polish? I've done this enough to know that you aren't doing much if any correction at that rate, especially on the larger vehicles like I tend to see. Wouldn't a 20min polish be a rushed job? What about your obligation to do it right? Is a "quick once over" really doing it right in your eyes, or are you cutting corners there?

And yes, you can make a vehicle shine without polish. Most lsp's impart a shine of their own. Will it shine more polished? Yup, but is the customer paying for it, will they actually see the difference, and more importantly do they want it?
Do you go to local car shows? I frequent them. About 2/3 of the cars being shown have swirls. Going by the way you are carrying on they wouldn't shine, but they do. They also win! So what we see and want has little bearing on the vast majority of even car enthusiasts.
I even see cars going up for auction on Mecum with holograms.

 

[tdekany]

Did you see me state that? Your questoin was answered before it was even asked.

This is what you wrote: """"There are customers that simply want a washed extremely cleaned car that will bead water and has a layer of protection on it offer the advantages of holding up agains the elements and their next roud of automated washes at the gas station.""""

Are you simply lying to your customers or do you not know that what you are promising is not true? A wax holding up to repeated car washes? Really?

You're skills as a teacher a failing as you're not listening to what others are sharing with youi here.

Do you mean the student arguing with the teacher? You are the one not listening. The issue lies in your "resume" - you have learned the wrong way of doing things and you are not willing to listen. But that is fine.

This isn't medicine it's auto detailing. When I go to get my oil changed, I don't expect them to put full synthetic and a K&N in my minivan just because it aligns with being what is best and what they insist on. The value proposition isn't there. Basic stuff regardless of the industry. In the optical field, not everyone needs to have an Opthomologist/MD bill them medically to do a refraction when an OD's office can do it for far less.

My goodness - no one mentioned anything about BEST. This is about doing the minimum as a detailer. I'll ask you too - have you ever been asked if you wanted your filter replaced at the time of an oil change? That is what you are arguing about. IT IS GIVEN THAT YOU GET YOUR FILTER REPLACED. You are trying to convince me that if the customer doesn't want to pay for the filter, it is ok not to change it.

Then I suppose 99% of the consumer industry is worthless as the OTC goods don't all require a polishing step first. I think you're overthinking things just a bit.

OTC products are used by DIY people - You claim to charge for a service and skipping the most important step and try to justify it.

and I grew up in the auto industry with my family who owned 3 franchise dealerships (Olds, Caddy, GMC) with a Body Shop location offering basic prep to full detailing services. Not hear to debate resume's or my 30yrs+ working on cars at first as my job starting at age 15 but now as my hobby.

As I said above already, like 99% of this industry, you learned the wrong way and unwilling to learn to do things the right way.

LOL. I guess the entire industry is a hoax

.

LOL indeed!!

Why do you think we had the original AUTOPIA and later AG and other detailing specific forums? Because the 1% wanted to provide better quality, have higher standards and do things the right way instead of the butchering that was and still is being done at most dealers and so called "detail shops"

But here you are telling people that it is ok to skip steps.

Did you see me state that? Your questoin was answered before it was even asked.

I said it because when I cover the process and a customer says no that it's not in alignment with what they want there's not much other than trying a second time and then saying you don't offer what they want is pretty much turning them away, regardless of your reasining.



You're skills as a teacher a failing as you're not listening to what others are sharing with youi here.



This isn't medicine it's auto detailing. When I go to get my oil changed, I don't expect them to put full synthetic and a K&N in my minivan just because it aligns with being what is best and what they insist on. The value proposition isn't there. Basic stuff regardless of the industry. In the optical field, not everyone needs to have an Opthomologist/MD bill them medically to do a refraction when an OD's office can do it for far less.


Then I suppose 99% of the consumer industry is worthless as the OTC goods don't all require a polishing step first. I think you're overthinking things just a bit.


Gladly but I don't do it for free. Again, back to the customers value statement.



and I grew up in the auto industry with my family who owned 3 franchise dealerships (Olds, Caddy, GMC) with a Body Shop location offering basic prep to full detailing services. Not hear to debate resume's or my 30yrs+ working on cars at first as my job starting at age 15 but now as my hobby.



LOL. I guess the entire industry is a hoax.

 

[RaskyR1]

Surface preparation is the most important to doing a coating. If it's part of your work ethic and business model to make sure the surface is fully decontaminated and prepared, and the customer doesn't want it, then walk away. Wash/Decontaminate/Evaluate/Prep/Protect -> 5 essential steps. Once you start getting nickle and dimed, it's going to cost you in the long rung.
Doing work on concession (after the fact) is never fun, nor profitable.

Honestly, I would tell her, proper surface preparation is what is key to the coating bonding to the surface and thus longevity.

^^^This!

I've never had a new car come in that didn't need correction. Most people buying a new car think that since it's new it doesn't need correction. Educate your clients and if needed have them stop by and show them the defects in the paint that they are blind too and reinforce how important the prep is for the longevity of the coating.

 

[Cruzscarwash]

this post has really blown up, and I see both sides

if the customer wants a LSP with no polish I feel that's what they should get. yes is not the right thing to do in the perfect detail world but I believe in giving the customer what they want. if you have done your due diligence and explained why that's not a good Idea then that's all you can do. you can choose also to turn them away but I also don't think that is right either, they come to you most times because they have some faith/ trust in your work with their cars and if you have told them all you can and they still don't want it for whatever reason that is their choice. I have done similar things before when ive had work done to my car. ive asked them to skip steps or not due certain tasks that are expected because I personally didn't want them done to my car. they respected that (sometimes I had to sign a wavier) so I used them for years for that reason. I also know of places that will refuse customers if they ask to not have a certain service done and I see that side as well from the businesses side. so I don't thing any side is wrong they just have different business practices and are known for each and will have different customer basis because of this.

 

[Rsurfer]

IMO if the customer does not want to pay for a polish before coating, then just offer a paint sealant, after explaining why a polish should be done before applying a coating. I don't know of any coating manufacturer that will offer a warranty on non polished paint.

 

[tdekany]

This is what I don't understand. Of all the years I have been detailing, I have never heard any of my, or other detailer's customers make that statement. Think about it. Who would ask that? If the customer is knowledgeable they would most definitely expect to have the paint polished. If not, how would they even know that polishing is part of the process? Unless the "detailer" brings it up, in which case it is the "detailer's fault. I have also never heard a request to not replace the oil filter.

However on my very first paid detail, the owner refused to let me clay the car. He thought it would remove the paint. Like all of it. There was nothing I said was helpful. Thankfully, the miata was a white single stage paint and pretty oxidized so compounding removed everything.

this post has really blown up, and I see both sides

if the customer wants a LSP with no polish I feel that's what they should get. yes is not the right thing to do in the perfect detail world but I believe in giving the customer what they want. if you have done your due diligence and explained why that's not a good Idea then that's all you can do. you can choose also to turn them away but I also don't think that is right either, they come to you most times because they have some faith/ trust in your work with their cars and if you have told them all you can and they still don't want it for whatever reason that is their choice. I have done similar things before when ive had work done to my car. ive asked them to skip steps or not due certain tasks that are expected because I personally didn't want them done to my car. they respected that (sometimes I had to sign a wavier) so I used them for years for that reason. I also know of places that will refuse customers if they ask to not have a certain service done and I see that side as well from the businesses side. so I don't thing any side is wrong they just have different business practices and are known for each and will have different customer basis because of this.

 

[RaskyR1]

I large majority of the work I do is coating brand new cars. This is just a few of the typical "brand new car" condition I see...on several of these the owners also didn't think their "new car" needed polishing either, but after explaining things to them and showing them the reality of their vehicles paint condition they agreed to having it done. Most of these were untouched by the dealer too.



































Prime, yet extreme example of the difference polishing can make on a brand new car.

 

[tdekany]

For a coating the price should reflect all the steps needed to do the job in my opinion. Imagine how much cheapskates love hearing that polishing is included in the price.

IMO if the customer does not want to pay for a polish before coating, then just offer a paint sealant, after explaining why a polish should be done before applying a coating. I don't know of any coating manufacturer that will offer a warranty on non polished paint.

 

[Rsurfer]

this post has really blown up, and I see both sides

if the customer wants a LSP with no polish I feel that's what they should get. yes is not the right thing to do in the perfect detail world but I believe in giving the customer what they want. if you have done your due diligence and explained why that's not a good Idea then that's all you can do. you can choose also to turn them away but I also don't think that is right either, they come to you most times because they have some faith/ trust in your work with their cars and if you have told them all you can and they still don't want it for whatever reason that is their choice. Then they came to you not trusting what you told them or you didn't do a good job explaining why polishing is necessary before applying any coating.I have done similar things before when I've had work done to my car. I've asked them to skip steps or not due certain tasks that are expected because I personally didn't want them done to my car. they respected that (sometimes I had to sign a wavier) so I used them for years for that reason. I also know of places that will refuse customers if they ask to not have a certain service done and I see that side as well from the businesses side. so I don't thing any side is wrong they just have different business practices and are known for each and will have different customer basis because of this.

: See post #67

 

[Cruzscarwash]

For a coating the price should reflect all the steps needed to do the job in my opinion. Imagine how much cheapskates love hearing that polishing is included in the price.

agreed the price should reflect the polish work but as you said you had someone not want you to clay. IDK why someone would ask for something to be taken out but if they did I feel like they should be able to and I don't see how a detailer is any less of a person if they did. ive not skipped polishing on any coating work ive done but if someone asked me to I think I would skip it. I don't think it would be something I would show off on my page or use for advertising or anything and I would have that noted on the inspection sheet but I don't think I would turn away the job

 

[RaskyR1]

Just came across a post on my FB feed from a buddy in TX that was way too fitting not to share!

 

[tdekany]

You noticed I mentioned claying not polishing. It was also my first detail. While I have obviously improved my detailing skills since then, the car still came out looking fantastic, but not being able to convince him about claying the paint was my fault. Let's call it amateur time! Nothing like that would ever happen today. If someone came to me and asked me to not correct the paint prior to coating it, (due to $$$$ as I am not exactly inexpensive) I would take the job and that has happened a couple of times. Since I do a 2 polishing step process anyway, I just spend some extra time and remove most imperfections anyway. But that is just me. My business comes either from the optimum site or from word of mouth. So I never run into customer not wanting the paint polished. If that did happen, it would take me a minute to convince them why they would want me to polish the paint. It is all about educating the customer. If you are not good at it, you need to work at it. I don't mean you personally.

 

[tdekany]

Ps: of course if polishing is included in your price already, I doubt that anyone would ask you to not polish. If they did, I'd agree to it but would polish the hack out of the paint anyway. I'm in business to create the best possible gloss. I'm not paid for sub par results.

 

[Cruzscarwash]

You noticed I mentioned claying not polishing. It was also my first detail. While I have obviously improved my detailing skills since then, the car still came out looking fantastic, but not being able to convince him about claying the paint was my fault. Let's call it amateur time! Nothing like that would ever happen today. If someone came to me and asked me to not correct the paint prior to coating it, (due to $$$$ as I am not exactly inexpensive) I would take the job and that has happened a couple of times. Since I do a 2 polishing step process anyway, I just spend some extra time and remove most imperfections anyway. But that is just me. My business comes either from the optimum site or from word of mouth. So I never run into customer not wanting the paint polished. If that did happen, it would take me a minute to convince them why they would want me to polish the paint. It is all about educating the customer. If you are not good at it, you need to work at it. I don't mean you personally.

again I totally agree with what you are saying but even if you educate that client sometimes they just don't want something done, polish, paint, tapping off(IDK just throwing things out) it doesn't always mean your not good at educating them, something's they just have had bad experiences or just don't have the money for the extra thing that's normally included so they try to cut corners where they feel that are happy with. IDK, ive dealt with some hard headed clients ( not in detailing but other jobs) and sometimes you just cant get people to drop the funds that are needed and they walk away altogether (sometimes not a bad thing)

 

[TTQ B4U]

This is what you wrote: """"There are customers that simply want a washed extremely cleaned car that will bead water and has a layer of protection on it offer the advantages of holding up agains the elements and their next roud of automated washes at the gas station.""""

Are you simply lying to your customers or do you not know that what you are promising is not true? A wax holding up to repeated car washes? Really?

Interesting that you continue to try and twist what I've written. Read the statement again as for the second time you take my stating what a customer wants as if it's what I stated to them. Please put your condencening questions back in your pocket and please concentrate on not what was stated the context too.

Do you mean the student arguing with the teacher? You are the one not listening. The issue lies in your "resume" - you have learned the wrong way of doing things and you are not willing to listen. But that is fine.

This isn't the only thread you've come across as if you're a know it all. I glanced over others but IMO you've confirmed the tone fairly well here.

My goodness - no one mentioned anything about BEST. This is about doing the minimum as a detailer.

Minimums don't always involve a machine polish. Perhaps in your shop yes, but in mine and in the eyes of many happy customers, no.

IT IS GIVEN THAT YOU GET YOUR FILTER REPLACED.

It's not a given that an air filter is replaced upon an oil change. Certainly not with a K&N either.

You are trying to convince me that if the customer doesn't want to pay for the filter, it is ok not to change it.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. If a customer doesn't want to pay for it then they aren't going to. There are lots of great services available but I'm not going to pay for one that is more than what I'm looking for to accomplish what I as a customer want done.

OTC products are used by DIY people - You claim to charge for a service and skipping the most important step and try to justify it.

Nearly all of the products discussed here are OTC. My justification is a happy customer base. No need to justify matching up my offerings with what my customers see value in. YMMV and good for you. Don't offer said service then.

here you are telling people that it is ok to skip steps.

I'm not telling anyone to skip steps. See post #10 long before you chimed in. You're the one here "telling" people things; your way or it's crap. Again, reading your history that's a common attitude in your posts. I'm sharing what I do and what works for me and letting them decide for themselves without criticizing it. I've also tried to pull this thread back on topic. You should try that sometime.

 

[tdekany]

Polishing is so fundamental in detailing that you simply do it. If polishing is an upsell for a detailer I'd run. Plus most people are not there watching you anyway. You do what needs to be done. You supposed to be the expert not the other way around. In my opinion there are 2 types of detailers: those who do things the right way and hacks. You can do a $150 job the right way or you can hack it up.

 

[custmsprty]

I never said I apply a coating without proper prep. I would apply a coating without polishing. My Cquartz box says nothing about polishing before coating.

Well said. Polishing has nothing to do with proper adherence. Proper surface prep does, which is not to say the same thing as swirl removal. It's simply proper surface perparation.

I bought my daughter a new 2016 Altima two weeks ago. Let the dealership wash it. Brought it home and put a coat of Blackfire Carnauba spray wax on it and it looks great. My daughter didn't care it wasn't polished or clayed. She didn't bust out a swirl finder light, she just said how great it looks and thank you. And the said product is doing it's job. It rained yeasterday and it had excellent beading. Treated the interior with CG Silk Shine and she was good to go.

I'd have to say this would satisfy the average car owner 99% of the time.
That by no means makes me a hack.

To each their own. rops:

 

[custmsprty]

Do you know that when you polish a car the finish looks glossier? So if your answer is yes, give me an example when a new car doesn't need a quick polishing step prior to protection? Because they all benefit from it. Why would it take you an extra 5 hours to do a finishing polish step? It doesn't make any sense. 5 hours? You guys should ask Mike Phillips if he ever does what you guys are doing and not polish a car prior to protection.

He doesn't need me to defend him, but GSKR has polished a few cars in his time. You have no idea who your'e speaking to. LMFAO!

The other thing is not everyone who comes here to learn does this for a living or even part time. Thier are plenty of members who come here to learn how to do take care of their personal vehicles. This isn't a "pros" only forum.

 

[tdekany]

Interesting that you continue to try and twist what I've written. Read the statement again as for the second time you take my stating what a customer wants as if it's what I stated to them. Please put your condencening questions back in your pocket and please concentrate on not what was stated the context too.


This isn't the only thread you've come across as if you're a know it all. I glanced over others but IMO you've confirmed the tone fairly well here.



Minimums don't always involve a machine polish. Perhaps in your shop yes, but in mine and in the eyes of many happy customers, no.



It's not a given that an air filter is replaced upon an oil change. Certainly not with a K&N either.



I'm not trying to convince you of anything. If a customer doesn't want to pay for it then they aren't going to. There are lots of great services available but I'm not going to pay for one that is more than what I'm looking for to accomplish what I as a customer want done.


Nearly all of the products discussed here are OTC. My justification is a happy customer base. No need to justify matching up my offerings with what my customers see value in. YMMV and good for you. Don't offer said service then.



I'm not telling anyone to skip steps. See post #10 long before you chimed in. You're the one here "telling" people things; your way or it's crap. Again, reading your history that's a common attitude in your posts. I'm sharing what I do and what works for me and letting them decide for themselves without criticizing it. You should try that sometime.

First of all no one is talking about changing the air filter. Maybe you should be reading what is written. Are you ever asked if you want your oil filter replaced when you're in for an oil change? Of course not as that is what needs to be done to do it the right way. Same with detailing - in order for the lsp to last, you polish. Sure you can skip that step just like not replacing the oil filter. Sooner or later the customer is going to pay for it. So where is the value you are claiming that you provide? Your lsp will wear away much faster which equals more money out of your customers pocket. Maybe you should try to polish paint after you did you "strong wash" and see how much extra dirt comes off from polishing. Now if you are honest with your clients and they do know that they paying for subpar results than it is ok. But I seriously doubt that you are THAT honest. And let me remind you, the op was about a coating, not some cheap mini detail. Either way, no matter what the detail costs, you can other do it the right way or hack it. If you don't like the truth, that is on you - I am definitely not a know it all but I do have the basics down pretty good. You should try it sometimes. If you expect me to tip toe around big egos, you will not like me. So for that I apologize.

 

[Eldorado2k]

.... You guys can carry on with your little argument, but I've heard about enough as far as the paint on brand new vehicles Always needing paint correction. The last 4 brand new vehicles to come my way have been absolutely flawless from the dealers lot.

2014 Dodge Charger: About a month old when 1st detailed it. No swirls. Needed to be clayed, from there I machine applied an AIO.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

2016 Dodge Ram: It came to me 4 days after being driven off the lot. Absolutely perfect in every way as far as the paint. Did not need claying, no swirl to be found, I coated all the trim, protected all the fabric, and the paint went straight to sealant.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

My brothers 2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee: 10 days after he drove it off the lot. Paint was absolutely perfect in every way. Washed it and went straight to sealant.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

My 2014 Kia Sorento: Paint was perfect from day 1 from the dealer. No clay needed, I did a test spot on the passenger door with M205 and a finishing pad. Polished half the door, then inspected it for nearly 30min. trying to see if there was any difference, there was not. So I decided not to polish the rest of the vehicle and went straight to sealant. 2+yrs. later and the paint is still flawless.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Now go slap somebody... lol.