Considering selling flex 3401 and buying griots random

The 21mm only corrects faster if the pad keeps spinning. If the pad stops spinning, it obviously won't cut. so the OPMs don't matter. The XC3401 ALWAYS spins. And cars seem to be getting more and more curves on them, so the free rotation DAs will have more and more problems.

And by the way, the XC3401 is 4800 OPM, not 480 OPM. And as for the PO5000C, it is NOT significantly faster at correcting than the XC3401, it is, by all reports, marginally faster, while it is smoother.

I will also note that the XC3401 is not known for lacking in correcting ability, or else it wouldn't have been around for as long as it has, nor would so many people be using it.
 
rover said:
I feel like the flex is too much of an orbital buffer and with a narrow throw. I am wondering if a larger throw will give me a better, faster shine without the risks of swirls by using the flex. I have used the flex 2x and it is ok but it doesn't seem like it is exactly what I am looking for. I have been able to remove some rotary buffer swirls that were in my car from the previous owner but the surface is still not what I want. Should I switch?

thanks
phillip
Click to expand...

I have the flex and the g 15 and I like the flex better. You can power through a detail, use 6" pads, works great on ALL panels not just flat ones. Also you don't have to always be worried about holding the machine in the perfect position. Try the force flex hybrid pads, there is no reason you cant get great results with the flex. you can get it as good as you can with a long throw.
 
If stalling is a problem then you cant use the machine. Also Todd Helme mentioned that 70% of 21's correction is from the orbital movement. There are few spots at most where you get stalling. Rotary or Rupes mini comes handy there. Imo forced rotation is for spot work.
 
For all Flex lovers, do side by side test and you notice that 15-21 machines correct alot faster.

Rupes Mille beats Flex for sure and yet it is noticeably slower than 15-21. I bought it because i thought it would correct faster not because i have stalling problems which i dont have. So thats why i am selling my week old Mille.
 
Joel1979 said:
If stalling is a problem then you cant use the machine. Also Todd Helme mentioned that 70% of 21's correction is from the orbital movement. .
Click to expand...

the problem isn't just in the operator, although keep in mind many here are weekend warriors not pro's doing nothing but detailing. the other problem is that with any non-forced rotation unit, even the Rupes, as soon as the operator starts applying pressure to the edge of the pad the rotation will stop. Working on any curved surface is pretty much the same as putting the buffer on an edge. Convex surfaces should require keeping the center line of the pad in contact with the panel thus more care is needed and slower correction times result. Time wise, most are doing 4-6 passes for full correction anyway thus time is really based on arm movement at that point. Pad and product used also come into play.

I started out and still use a rotary on occasion, then moved to a traditional DA and now a Flex Forced Rotation and the Flex is the overall winner IMO. The hood of a Range Rover is one thing being big and flat, but the panels of a 911 or a Mitsu Evo are another. I personally like the Flex as it can polish and correct anything from the front fenders of a 911 to the thin edges of a bumper on any sedan. Put some purple wool pads on it and the Flex is as effective as my old rotary without nearly the concerns of paint burn-through.
 
Interesting thread...


Here's what I've seen over the years...


First - I rarely see a FLEX 3401 come up for sale. Rarely.

Second - The most common comment I see from the person that sells their FLEX 3401 is down the road they regret it.


Long stroke orbital polishers win the "Smooth Operator" contest.


Gear-driven orbitals win the "Speed Contest". (no pad stall no matter what the shape of the body panel)


I'd recommend keeping the FLEX 3401 and adding a long stroke orbital to your collection. Use the tool that fits the job the best.



:)
 
kkritsilas said:
The 21mm only corrects faster if the pad keeps spinning. If the pad stops spinning, it obviously won't cut.
Click to expand...


I would write that to read,


"Free spinning orbital polishers, (no matter what the brand), only correct if pad rotation is maintained no matter what the shape of the body panel"


If the pad is not both rotating and oscillating, (for an orbital polisher), then you're not removing paint and thus you're not removing defects.


A pad simply vibrating against paint may remove some paint if you have the time to wait but one thing I've noticed about most detailers and even enthusiasts, they want the correction step and any polishing steps to take less time, not more time.


:)
 
Rarely is correct. I've been looking for a while.
 
There are like few spots where 15-21 cant use its full potential and in other places it destroys 3401. I think a rotary or.mini da would be better spot machine than clumsy 3401. Only combo that corrects faster than long throw and microfiber is rotary with hardcore woolpad like this:

Meguiars Rotary Wool Cutting Pad
 
This is always a fun topic!

On a wide open panel, Yes any long-throw machine will correct swirl marks and scratches faster than a forced roation 8mm machine.

8mm @ 960 RPM VS 21mm @ 5800 OPMS on a wide open panel those numbers let you know who has the advantage. Forced rotation is just that forced rotation, It is on a fixed gear and can only rotate so fast, long-throws have a huge OPM advantage, you also have to consider that 8mm vs 21mm is traveling almost 3x the distance meaning you are correcting 3x more surface area.

HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is what I call "The Rabbit Vs The Tortoise"

The rabbit is the long-throw machine, While the Flex is the tortoise, On a car with curvy panels, You can get it done with 1 Machine being the 3401, If the car has big open panels, any long-throw is going to be a better choice. So you have to weigh the benefit if getting it done with 1 machine, Or swapping to use multiple machines with long-throws. Sometimes that can have the turtle vs the rabbit effect.

I however glad I have both, I use them as a system, Where my Long-throw lacks, I use my 3401, the 3401 is my go-to for bumpers, side skirts, etc.

For my production buffs, "All-in-one shiner jobs" I use the 3401, I go around the car and I dont have to worry about pad-stall.

There is no right or wrong answer.

Think of it like this, Every pro-golfer uses different golf clubs, It's all about you being comfortable. If you as a detailer are comfortable you are going to provide a higher level of work.

I am a huge long-throw guy, I however do love my Flex 3401 aswell :D
 
Just to add for clarification...


Forced rotation ONLY = rotary buffer


FLEX 3401 = Forced rotation and forced oscillation

Makita PO500C = Forced rotation and forced oscillation

RUPES Mille LK 900E - Forced rotation and forced oscillation



The only reason I point this out is I tend to be a "Word Guy"' as words mean things and most of the time I see people typing about gear-driven orbital polishers they only describe ONE ACTION when in fact there are two actions.



:)
 
Joe@NextLevelDetail said:
This is always a fun topic!
Click to expand...


I agree. Love talking tools with car detailing guys.... (and ladies)



Also am going to interject this article I wrote back in March of this year for everyone that will read this thread into the future...


FLEX 3401 or RUPES? - A question I get asked a lot! -Mike Phillips


Apples_to_Oranges_002.JPG




No matter which tool you're thinking about buying.... click the link, read the info, it will help you to budget accordingly. That's all too.... no argument on my part as to which brand to go with, just what to plan for as it relates to your purchase.


BIG PICTURE

The big picture is this... no matter which tool you purchase, becoming GREAT with the tool is a matter of using great products, the right pad for the job and then investing the time behind the tool to become good with it.

When you master the tool... you an make it dance on the paint...


:)
 
.


I used each one of these tools last night and except for the TOB, all of them removed swirls and scratches...


ToolsD166_01.JPG


ToolsD166_02.JPG


ToolsD166_03.JPG





And I have them all set out in the garage right now for tonight's class. So if you're in driving range of Stuart, Florida, then come on by and have some fun!


:)
 
Mike Phillips said:
I would write that to read,


"Free spinning orbital polishers, (no matter what the brand), only correct if pad rotation is maintained no matter what the shape of the body panel"


If the pad is not both rotating and oscillating, (for an orbital polisher), then you're not removing paint and thus you're not removing defects.


A pad simply vibrating against paint may remove some paint if you have the time to wait but one thing I've noticed about most detailers and even enthusiasts, they want the correction step and any polishing steps to take less time, not more time.


:)
Click to expand...

So i guess that Rupes 15 beats 21 because it spins faster and throw doesnt matter. And duetto is even more powerful then. Imagine you take sandpaper on your hand and do random orbital movement against paint and nothing happens?

The bigger the throw is the less important spinning is. With 21 throw Rupes it should be 70/30.
 
Joel1979 said:
So i guess that Rupes 15 beats 21 because it spins faster and throw doesnt matter.
Click to expand...

I have know idea what you mean?



By reading through your posting history, you appear to be a fan of RUPES polishers.


I'm good with that... heck... I'm the only guy on earth that has written a how-to book on RUPES tools which is an attempt at helping people master their tools and their system.


RUPES_Mark_II_in_Stock_02.jpg


(link to book is in my Signature Line)


So I'm not sure what your point is?


:dunno:
 
Joel1979 said:
So i guess that Rupes 15 beats 21 because it spins faster and throw doesnt matter.
Click to expand...


Here's something I did last week, (taught a class on how to use the RUPES paint polishing system. And then took all the pictures and did a full write-up.


RUPES EASY GLOSS System - EXTREME MAKEOVER - 2006 Toyota Tundra - YEARS of neglect!



BEFORE

Tundra_EM_003.JPG




AFTER

Tundra_EM_070.JPG




How it was done --> RUPES EASY GLOSS SYSTEM

Tundra_EM_071.JPG





Name one other person that did this for RUPES or any tool company last week? Last month? Last year?



I think there's another 70 pictures and TONS of how-to information in just this one article dealing with all aspects of how to detail a car PLUS how to use RUPES tools, pads and products...


RUPES EASY GLOSS System - EXTREME MAKEOVER - 2006 Toyota Tundra - YEARS of neglect!

:buffing:
 
Mike Phillips said:
I have know idea what you mean?



By reading through your posting history, you appear to be a fan of RUPES polishers.


I'm good with that... heck... I'm the only guy on earth that has written a how-to book on RUPES tools which is an attempt at helping people master their tools and their system.


So I'm not sure what your point is?


:dunno:
Click to expand...

Yes i am, but i also have Flex pe 14-2 and mille. All of those are.great but.by far my favourites are long throws.

My point is that you underestimate throws effect and make it sound that its all about pad spinning. That.it is true with short throw machines but not at all with long throw machines. And if its all about spinning then duetto corrects faster than 21 because it spins faster. Well we all know that its not the case.
 
Joel1979 said:
Yes i am, but i also have Flex pe 14-2 and mille. All of those are.great but.by far my favourites are long throws.

My point is that you underestimate throws effect and make it sound that its all about pad spinning. That.it is true with short throw machines but not at all with long throw machines. And if its all about spinning then duetto corrects faster than 21 because it spins faster. Well we all know that its not the case.
Click to expand...


I love your passion for what I call,

The art of polishing paint


Consider writing and publishing some articles to share your passion, that's what I do. Include pictures too...


It's very rewarding helping others both in the online world and in the real world...


That's what I'm doing right now. I just finished going through the pictures I took yesterday using close to 20 tools with the new Meguiar's D166. Now I'm going to rename each picture file and then resize and then upload to the gallery.

After that I'll add words to go with the pictures and hopefully share with others some real-world experience with this new cleaner/wax.


:dblthumb2:
 
OPM/RPM and Mm offset/throw are equally important in regards to Correction speed.
If one is lacking you need to compensate with the other.

Perfect example is the new po5000c and upcomming Mille to the 3401...less throw compensated for more opm an rpm..

Or the long throws to the standard throw polisher....12-21 mm to 8mm


As for correcting when stalled..its possible with a 21mm as along as your dragging the stalled, but oscillating pad back and fourth on panel .(massage technique)
ive done it on a 08 quad cab ram.
..never tried competely stationary nor with anything less the 21mm

Rupes said they upped the OPM on the 15 to keep up with the 21mm but ive heard it doesnt...so apparently not enough compensation to match the 21mm polisher(only thing I havent tested nor confirmed as I dont have Rupes and only have G21)


My findings with the po5000c is that its easily a pass quicker then the 3401
 
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