Need advice on use of PC 7424XP

mcpp66

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Hi Guys, I'm new to detailing and am very fearful of screwing up so I need some guidance. I have a black 2010 Camaro so I'm sure you can see why I'm concerned and want to make sure I do this right. There are several "lines" in my paint from improper car washing techniques I used before I knew better. Anyhow, here's my plan of action, please provide guidance where and when necessary. I thank you in advance.

I have orange and white Lake Country Foam pads and I have Meguiar's SwirlX, ScratchX2.0 and Ultimate Compound. I have no intentions on using UC because they're very light lines and I don't think I need to be that aggressive. Of course I'm going to wash the car first (using correct techniques and equipment) and then use SwirlX with an orange pad as shown in the how-to video on this Web site. I believe SwirlX was designed as a one-step process, but I was wondering if I need to use any kind of polish on the white pad after I'm done with the SwirlX? Instead of using an orange pad with the SwirlX, should I go less agressive and use the white pad with the SwirlX instead? Of course, I realize after I'm finished removing the imperfections I need to apply a coat of wax. Are the methods of using the PC and SwirlX different for the different parts of the car (i.e., doors, hood, and so forth)? I know with a rotary buffer I would need to stay away from edges and corners, but does that also hold true with a Porter Cable DA? Thanks guys.
 
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I believe SwirlX was designed as a one-step process, but I was wondering if I need to use any kind of polish on the white pad after I'm done with the SwirlX?

No. After SwirlX if the paint looks like you want it to look then you can go to your choice of LSP, i.e a wax or paint sealant.

Instead of using on orange pad with the SwirlX, should I go less aggressive and use the white pad with the SwirlX instead?

Do a test spot first, see what you can do with a polishing pad and SwirlX before using the cutting pad.

"Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

You can't use the least aggressive product without testing first to see what you can do.

Make sense?

Are the methods of using the PC and SwirlX different for the different parts of the car (i.e., doors, hood, and so forth)? I know with a rotary buffer I would need to stay away from edges and corners, but does that also hold true with a Porter Cable DA?

It's a good practice to avoid buffing on edges but with a new car with an original, virgin factory paint job you're not going to do any damage using a DA style polisher with polishing pads and SwirlX


:)
 
Here's a tip...

The new Camaro is a relatively large size car, instead of tackling the entire car in one day, just do one panel in one day, at least to start with.

Benefits

1. You won't burn out
From beginning to final wipe-off, just buffing out one panel, for example the hood, it's a huge undertaking for a seasoned pro not to mention an Newbie, so at least to start out with, just tackle on panel. This will keep it fun so you don't burn-out.

2. Perfect your technique
By only working on one panel you'll have a chance to perfect your technique, this will give you the confidence to tackle the rest of the car while increasing your comfort level with the tools involved.

3. Reduce your risk
If there are any problems, if you only tackle one panel you'll reduce your risk to just this one panel.


No worries, everyone here on this forum is here to see you through to success...

:)
 
No. After SwirlX if the paint looks like you want it to look then you can go to your choice of LSP, i.e a wax or paint sealant.



Do a test spot first, see what you can do with a polishing pad and SwirlX before using the cutting pad.

"Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

You can't use the least aggressive product without testing first to see what you can do.

Make sense?



It's a good practice to avoid buffing on edges but with a new car with an original, virgin factory paint job you're not going to do any damage using a DA style polisher with polishing pads and SwirlX


:)


Thank you for the quick responses Mike! I wish I lived nearby I'd just pay you to do it for me so that I'd know it was being done right! Couple more questions if I may......

1. You said I won't do any damage to the paint job using a POLISHING pad and SwirlX, should I infer that by using an orange cutting pad that some damage may occur and that I need to avoid edges?

2. I already tried a test spot with SwirlX and a white pad and I could not get rid of the micro-marring. It's very, very light, but under the right lighting you can see it. Is that micro-marring there just because the white pad doesn't have enough cutting power? Is this just a side-effect of the SwirlX? Perhaps my technique is bad? I'm pretty sure I buffed it long enough because I could see the SwirlX breakdown. Any thoughts as to where or how I went wrong? I did it just like in the video. Put some around the edge of the pad, wiped it on the car, set the speed to 3 to spread it around, and up'd the speed to five and worked it in for 3-5 minutes.

3. So I would buff the hood the same way I would buff any other panel?

Thanks for your advice Mike!
 
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Thank you for the quick responses Mike! I wish I lived nearby I'd just pay you to do it for me so that I'd know it was being done right!
I'll let Mike answer your questions to him - but where do you live? There are some really great detailers on this forum that I bet would be more than happy to share what they know. (Not putting myself in the great detailer ranks - just trying to help you out).

DLB
 
I appreciate any help I can get. I live near Pittsburgh.
 
No. After SwirlX if the paint looks like you want it to look then you can go to your choice of LSP, i.e a wax or paint sealant.

Mike, now I'm confused after reading another thread. Above you stated that after using SwirlX once the paint looks the way I want it to that I don't have to use a polishing pad with some polish. But in the following thread,

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-expert-featuring-mike-phillips/21532-new-swirl-removing.html


a poster stated the following:
"Always try the softer pads first. The more aggresive you go, the more marring the pad leaves behind. So if you use the orange, you will need to follow it up with a finishing polish and finishing pad."

According to that if I use an orange pad I'll then have to follow it up with a white pad. If I'm being a pest and am making more of this than I should then I apologize, but using what I've already got, a 7424XP with white and orange Lake Country pads, what should my protocol be? You said to start with the white pad, then if I'm not satisfied or an not achieving the finish I want to move onto an orange pad. What do I do if I decide to go orange? Will that pad leave behind marring if done properly? Or does using Meguiar's SwirlX prevent that? I'm sorry, now I really don't know what to do.
 
Above you stated that after using SwirlX once the paint looks the way I want it to that I don't have to use a polishing pad with some polish.

Do a Test Spot using the white polishing pad with the SwirlX, if after you buff for 4-6 section passes to a small area and the wipe off the residue and inspect the paint looks good, that is it meets your expectations, then you can go right to your choice of wax or paint sealant. SwirlX finishes out very nicely on most paints with a polishing pad so there's no further steps you need to do before applying your choice of LSP.



According to that if I use an orange pad I'll then have to follow it up with a white pad.

Key word in what you wrote is

if


If you use the Orange cutting pad with the SwirlX or any chemical then yes, you'll probably have to re-polish each square inch using a polishing pad.


If I'm being a pest and am making more of this than I should then I apologize, but using what I've already got, a 7424XP with white and orange Lake Country pads, what should my protocol be? You said to start with the white pad, then if I'm not satisfied or an not achieving the finish I want to move onto an orange pad.

Yeah I guess I shouldn't have assumed you would know to follow a cutting pad with a polishing pad. Sorry...




What do I do if I decide to go orange? Will that pad leave behind marring if done properly?

Every paint system polishes out differently, for years I've been typing this, it kind of makes sense,


"You don't know what you can do until you try"

or

"You don't know what you can do until you go out into your garage and bring the polisher down onto the paint and buff a small section, (Test Spot), then wipe off the residue and inspect the results"


Point being is believe it or not some paints can and will polish out very nicely with a foam cutting pad and a light cleaner/polish like SwirlX but you won't know until you do dome testing.

The Lake Country Orange cutting pad is pretty aggressive so chances are pretty good you will have to follow any cutting pad step with a polishing pad step.

Polishing paint to create show car results is often times best done using a multiple step approach, if a person, (not you), wanted they could use an AIO or cleaner/wax with a foam cutting pad and get perfectly good Grocery Getter results and be done in one step. Just depends upon your expectations.


Or does using Meguiar's SwirlX prevent that? I'm sorry, now I really don't know what to do.

A quality cleaner/polish or polish or anything slippery can negate the abrading characteristics of something coarse like a cutting pad but to what end you won't know until you do some testing because all paint systems are different not to mention skill level and experience, two very important factors that have a strong effect on results.

Here you go, after washing and drying the car, or wiping the paint clean, test with a polishing pad and SwirlX to an area about 20" square or so. It helps to lay down a piece of painter's tape and only buff one side of it so you can easily see the before and after results, like shown in the below thread.

Note: This Test Spot was done using a Flex 3401 but the same principals apply for any tool and even working by hand. One thing though, with a PC you don't lay down a strip of product you apply a circle or an x-pattern to the face of the pad.


How to do a Test Spot using the Flex 3401


The below is a portion taken from this write-up,

1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown!


Note: You can swap out different pads and chemicals for your test spot, the important point is to test the products, pads, tools and your technique to one small area first, and then check your results before attempting to buff out the entire car.

It does help to actually lay down a strip of tape of tape and then just work on one side of the tape, this will help you to better see the changes taking place.

Make sure the results from your Test Spot meet your expectations, if they don't then start a thread on this forum and let us know what you're seeing and our online community will do their best to help you tweak your technique and see you through to success!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Begin Copy & Paste
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We're ready to do our test spot and for this we're going to use the Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover 3.0 with the LC Hydro-Tech foam polishing pad with the Flex 3401 If this isn't removing the swirls fast enough or effectively enough then will stick with the same product but try the more aggressive LC Hydro-Tech Cutting pad.


Center the pad onto the backing plate...
57TuqChev053.jpg



And then press the pad firmly against the backing plate to fully engage the Velcro.
57TuqChev054.jpg


Horizontal surfaces like the hood or the trunk lid always work best for the Test Spot. Here we're using the trunk lid and we've applied a piece of painter's tape to separate between the before and after sides for easier and more accurate evaluation.

57TuqChev055.jpg




Always shake your products well before using them... I like to twist them back in forth at my side...
57TuqChev056.jpg




Lay down a thin strip of product about 6" to 8" long. You'll tend to use less product as you move around the car and your pad becomes more wet with product so it's less likely to absorb product into itself.
57TuqChev057.jpg


57TuqChev058.jpg


57TuqChev059.jpg



Unlike a true Rotary Buffer which the pad would rotate clockwise as you look down on it from behind the buffer, the Flex 3401 rotates counterclockwise and as such we're going to pick up our strip of product running the pad across the panel from left to right and running the strip into the pad at the 4 O'Clock position.
(See the YouTube Video below).

57TuqChev060.jpg


57TuqChev061.jpg


57TuqChev062.jpg


57TuqChev063.jpg


57TuqChev064.jpg



After picking up our bead, we lay the pad flat against the paint and begin making slow, overlapping passes over our test section.
57TuqChev065.jpg


57TuqChev066.jpg


57TuqChev067.jpg



Try to always have a wet film of product at the end of the buffing cycle as buffing to a complete dry buff might lead to hazing if you lose all lubricity on the surface.
57TuqChev068.jpg





YouTube Video Performing A Test Spot using the Flex VRG 3401

[video=youtube_share;3CtUaI_8HhE]- Performing a "Test Spot" to the paint on a 1957 Chevrolet Belair[/video]




Turning the pad over reveals we're working on a single stage paint job, not a basecoat/clear coat finish. Single stage paints are generally softer and easier to work on than clear coat finishes with the exception of white single stage paints as the pigment type for white paint is Titanium Dioxide Powder and the pigment alone will make the paint, (resin), very unworkable or hard-to-polish.
57TuqChev069.jpg



Next we'll wipe the residue off using a Cobra Indigo Microfiber Polishing Cloth and inspect the results both in the shop and outside in full sun.
57TuqChev070.jpg


57TuqChev071.jpg



This is with the before side being lit up using the flash of the Rebel T1i
57TuqChev072.jpg



This is the after side. The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.

No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels.
57TuqChev073.jpg




And a shot right on the tape-line...
57TuqChev074.jpg
 
Continued...


If you're not getting the results you hope for using the polishing pad then try the cutting pad next and again, inspect your results.

If you really want to get D.O. then test in a new section as the first section has already been polished and can skew your results from testing the cutting pad/SwirlX because you're testing a section that's already been worked on.

Myself? I would test on the same section but you can make that choice.

After you test the cutting pad, wipe off the residue and inspect the results, this is where a Brinkman Swirl Finder Light comes in real handy...

Brinkmann Maxfire Dual Xenon Rechargeable Spotlight - BR-800-2200-0

swirl-finder2.jpg



You can pull the car out into the sun instead if you don't have the BSFL

Point being to do some methodical testing and inspect your results till you dial in a process that works and meets your expectations.


Back to the testing, after using the cutting pad, (if the polishing pad combo didn't work), if you see any hazing then simply switch back to the polishing pad and re-buff the section and then wipe off and inspect again.

(See how this all works?)

If the results look GREAT then you can probably duplicate this process over the rest of the car and the results will look great.

If the results don't look great come back and and tell us what you're seeing or take a picture an upload it into your gallery and then insert it into your thread so we can all see what you're seeing.

How-to work with pictures on discussion forums


Does all that make sense?


It's a lot easier to show in person then use a keyboard...

:)
 
There's a member over on CorvetteForum asking similar questions and I just posted the blelow for them, not sure if you've seen this yet but it's pretty in-depth...

I only copied and pasted a portion of it...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Begin copy and paste
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Tips and Techniques for using the PC 7424XP Dual Action Polisher to remove Below Surface Defects


First, here's a few time saving tips that everyone learns when they're new to machine polishing.

1. Never turn the polisher on until the face of the buffing pad is in contact with the surface of the paint.

2. Never lift the buffing pad off the surface until you have turned the polisher off.

Like this,
polish-2.gif


If you do either of the above, especially if you lift the buffing pad off the surface before the pad slows down after you’ve been buffing for a while and your pad is now wet with product, you’ll throw product splatter all over the car as well as yourself and anyone and anything nearby.

Next you'll put the polisher down and spend the next hour or so doing your best to wipe off a zillion little dots of product splatter off adjacent panels and everything else surrounding the buffer.

Most people make this mistake once, then after experiencing what a pain it is to remove all the small dots of splatter not to mention all the time it requires, then most people will never make this mistake again. So try to make it a habit to turn the polisher off and allow the buffing pad to slow down before lifting the polisher off the surface.

Now that we've covered this common mistake that everyone makes at some time or another when learning to use a DA Polisher, let's take a look at how to actually use the polisher to remove below surface paint defects first. After that we'll take a look at using the polisher to apply a wax or paint sealant and then to remove the dried wax or paint sealant.

Note; these techniques apply to your doing your Test Spot as well as all the sections you're going to break the panels of your car up into as you work around it.

Correction work – Using the PC7424XP to remove below surface defects
  • Work small sections at a time
  • Make overlapping passes as you work the panel
  • Use a slow arm speed
  • Use the 5.0 to 6.0 Speed setting when removing below surface defects
  • Apply firm downward pressure
  • Don't over use or under use your choice of compound or polish
  • Hold the pad flat to the surface
  • Clean your pad often
  • Remove spent residue before adding fresh product

thumbsup.gif
 
Wow! Thank you for the very thorough and informative responses. Just a couple more questions if I may:

1. Are 4-6 section passes generally the amount you want to use with a test spot? I'm sure this is not a hard rule, but does this rule of thumb also apply after the test spot?

2. If I do use a cutting pad and then have to follow with a polishing pad, would I still use the SwirlX on the polishing pad or is there something different to use?

3. What's an "AIO"? :confused: I guess whatever it is it's something I shouldn't attempt to use at my level.

4. I already have a BSFL (got it from this site, along with most of my other supplies) and I love it. Great product! :xyxthumbs:

5. It seems like if the cutting pad and SwirlX cause any hazing then I'll be able to get rid of it by using the same tools. In other words, if the compound and pad cause imperfections, then I should be able to use the same pad (or a polishing pad) with the same chemical (SwirlX, in my case) to repair it (i.e., no permanent damage).

I appreciate all the time you (and everyone) else gave me in this thread. It is greatly appreciated. I'm going to wash the car later in the week and if I feel brave enough to try all this I'll let you know how it all worked. I do have an old 98 Honda I've already been using as practice. But the color of the car (sort of like a light gold or beige) makes it VERY hard to see if I'm doing a good job or not. I'll probably practice on that car a little while longer before moving to my baby. Again, sorry if some of my questions are redundant or just plain stupid. Please don't assume any level of knowledge when providing me advice. This is my first real car and never really cared much about all the other ones I've owned. Thanks again Mike!
 
You can pull the car out into the sun instead if you don't have the BSFL
Mike, are you saying that the BSFL will reveal the same imperfections if any as the sun will?
 
I recently had a similar experience as your having right now. About a month ago I discovered I was getting small scratches in my new mercedes. I was determined to learn how to get my car swirl free. I don't now any detailers in this area. I spent about 30 hours researching and learning. I bought a PC 7424XP with various Lake Country CCS pads. I got some Meguiars #9 swirl remover, Menzerna final polish 2 and Meguiars 205. Just like you I was scared so I tested out on the family minivan. :) I did the hood with swirl remover. I didn't remove the swirls but hid them pretty well. I was ready to try it on the mercedes. I tried swirl remover with a white pad. Results weren't good enough. I tried the Menzerna with the white and orange and still wasn't happy with results. I used my trunk as the area to determine how to do the rest of my car. I tried the 205 with a white and finally an orange pad. The orange pad with 205 was the combo for me. 205 looks about the same cutting as swirlx. I did the whole car with 205 and orange. The 205 was good and left almost no marks. I just did one step. I'm very happy with the results. The 205 finishes pretty nice. You might consider getting some. Just remember to lighten up the last few passes to jewel it. Also, go slow (speed 5 or 6). It took me 6 hours and I proabably should've gone a little slower. I now your scared (so was I), but the PC is really easy and kinda fun and you've gotten a lot of good information in this thread. Go for it, it's very rewarding.
 
I recently had a similar experience as your having right now. About a month ago I discovered I was getting small scratches in my new mercedes. I was determined to learn how to get my car swirl free. I don't now any detailers in this area. I spent about 30 hours researching and learning. I bought a PC 7424XP with various Lake Country CCS pads. I got some Meguiars #9 swirl remover, Menzerna final polish 2 and Meguiars 205. Just like you I was scared so I tested out on the family minivan. :) I did the hood with swirl remover. I didn't remove the swirls but hid them pretty well. I was ready to try it on the mercedes. I tried swirl remover with a white pad. Results weren't good enough. I tried the Menzerna with the white and orange and still wasn't happy with results. I used my trunk as the area to determine how to do the rest of my car. I tried the 205 with a white and finally an orange pad. The orange pad with 205 was the combo for me. 205 looks about the same cutting as swirlx. I did the whole car with 205 and orange. The 205 was good and left almost no marks. I just did one step. I'm very happy with the results. The 205 finishes pretty nice. You might consider getting some. Just remember to lighten up the last few passes to jewel it. Also, go slow (speed 5 or 6). It took me 6 hours and I proabably should've gone a little slower. I now your scared (so was I), but the PC is really easy and kinda fun and you've gotten a lot of good information in this thread. Go for it, it's very rewarding.
If 205 and an orange pad got you good results you should finish down with a white pad. Or better yet finish down with Menz 85rd and a grey or blue pad.
 
205 with an orange pad is pretty aggressive, isn't it? If I were to use 205 and an orange pad, would the correct finishing step be to use 105 on a white pad?
 
You can pull the car out into the sun instead if you don't have the BSFL
Mike, are you saying that the BSFL will reveal the same imperfections if any as the sun will?

The BSFL does a fine job of revealing swirls and imperfections. It's a great tool!
 
205 with an orange pad is pretty aggressive, isn't it? If I were to use 205 and an orange pad, would the correct finishing step be to use 105 on a white pad?

Guess I got this one backwards, I guess the 105 is the cutting compound and the 205 is the finishing compound.
 
Somewhere on this site I think Mike or someone else posted a list of least-to-most aggressive compounds from Meguiars. I'm going to look for it, but if someone can post a link in case I can't find it that would be much appreciated. Thanks.
 
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