2000 Camaro Paint needs help again

[mammoth713]

I'm back again:xyxthumbs:

I caught the detailing bug last summer and bought a bunch of products and used them by hand applicators and had some good results.

I'm considering buying a Porter Cable D.A. Polisher for myself for this summer.

So I need some help.

First off, here are the products I have:

*Meg's Ultimate compound
*Meg's SwirlX
*Meg's ScratchX 2.0
*Poorboy's Polish w/ Sealant All In One
*DP Max Wax Paste

there are a lot of "spider web" marks in the paint. I got some of them out by hand last summer with the above products but I'd like to try the DA Polisher for a professional job this time.

So if I was to use the DA Polisher, I would use a "cleaner wax" to remove the wax/sealant thats on the car already, or should I use Dawn Soap?


Here are some trouble spots I'd like to try fixing (the first one is not as bad as the picture makes it out to be, 2nd one I tried showing spider scratches, cant really see them):

Any advice or suggestions are appreciated! Thanks

Heres the whole car:

 

[LuxuryMobile]

If you plan to polish the car, then I would use dawn to wash it, maybe even 2-3 times, to ensure all the protection is off. From there, you could continue on to polish the paint.

 

[hulksdaddy]

I'd wash with Dawn, then clay it. That should remove everything, plus give you a nice, smooooooth surface.

 

[c5z06camaro]

Just like other had said, use dawn to strip old wax/sealant. Then clay it, after that you can polish it. Btw nice to see another f-body owner around.

 

[mammoth713]

how would you address the area behind the front tires? would you try using the buffer pads on it or does it appear to be beyond repair?

 

[SeaJay's]

mammoth - I don't see any pics other than the whole car. Maybe it's just me?

Either way if you go the DA route, I'd also pick up some M205 to use after the Megs UC.

And as others have said dawn wash then clay and you will be ready to polish.

 

[mammoth713]

mammoth - I don't see any pics other than the whole car. Maybe it's just me?

Either way if you go the DA route, I'd also pick up some M205 to use after the Megs UC.

And as others have said dawn wash then clay and you will be ready to polish.

not sure why you cant see the other 2 photos, sorry about that.

so what kit would you suggest I purchase? I'm not familiar with how the pad system works..? Orange seems to be a light cutter pad, good for getting rid of intermediate swirls? and black seems to be a sealant/wax applicator that doesnt cut at all?

 

[SeaJay's]

I can see them now. I think it was my work computer.

Anyway...the first pic I can't really tell the damage. Is the white the damage or just dirty? Or is it really faded there? It looks from what I can tell to be some scratches and scuffs there. Maybe a few paint chips but that could just be it being dirty.

If your going to go with a DA I think a lot of people are going to point you in the direction of the griots garage da. It has more power than the PC and comes with a life time warranty. I have the PC and love it. It's a great machine. I did just step up to the Flex rotary, so my DA is going to get less use, but I always use it to apply waxes or sealants.

When it comes to the pads the colors will depend on what brand/type of pad you looking at. I am currently using the LC CCS flat 5.5" pads. The yellow pad is the high cut pad, orange a step below, and so on. You can look at this thread to see the pads. http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-charts-graphs/21155-pad-comparison-chart.html

Either way whatever kit you decide to go with I'd get a 5" backing plate and call up AG and see if they can sub in some 5.5" pads instead of the 6.5".

 

[mammoth713]

I can see them now. I think it was my work computer.

Anyway...the first pic I can't really tell the damage. Is the white the damage or just dirty? Or is it really faded there? It looks from what I can tell to be some scratches and scuffs there. Maybe a few paint chips but that could just be it being dirty.

If your going to go with a DA I think a lot of people are going to point you in the direction of the griots garage da. It has more power than the PC and comes with a life time warranty. I have the PC and love it. It's a great machine. I did just step up to the Flex rotary, so my DA is going to get less use, but I always use it to apply waxes or sealants.

When it comes to the pads the colors will depend on what brand/type of pad you looking at. I am currently using the LC CCS flat 5.5" pads. The yellow pad is the high cut pad, orange a step below, and so on. You can look at this thread to see the pads. http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-charts-graphs/21155-pad-comparison-chart.html

Either way whatever kit you decide to go with I'd get a 5" backing plate and call up AG and see if they can sub in some 5.5" pads instead of the 6.5".

thanks for the advice, I will check all that out. And yeah behind the wheels its faded kind of.. I'm not experienced enough to know if its repairable with a DA or not.. Its almost like its so scratched that it has fully lost its gloss.. Do you think I could use the DA in this area? I noticed last year when I used the Poorboy's AIO polish/sealant by hand application it definitely helped gloss over that area a bit. However, it didnt fix it...

So what do you think about it?

 

[ScottB]

You dont want to use a cleaner wax to remove old waxes and sealants if you plan on polishing paint. Perhaps a paint cleansing lotion (Pinnacle, P21S, Dodo) is a better option. Likely the polish will also remove any wax or sealant left on paint.

 

[Blackthorn One]

I would not use Dawn since I learned that it contains carcinogens and or neurotoxins according to the Safe Shopper's Bible, by Samuel Epstein, M.D.

Hidden Toxins in the Home: Information from "The Safe Shopper's Bible" by Dr. Samuel Epstein
"ARE TOXIC HOUSEHOLD CHEMICALS POISONING YOUR FAMILY?
The Environmental Protection Agency defines chemical hazards as "acute" or"chronic:" Acute hazard, includes highly toxic, or corrosive chemicals which cause anadverse effect to an organ after short-term exposure. Chronic hazard includes carcinogens and other hazardous chemicals whichcause an adverse effect over a long-term exposure The Federal Code of Regulations defines "Hazardous Chemicals" in Section 1910.1200c Title 29. However, the term "Hazardous" does NOT include hazardous ingredients used in products designed for personal, family, or household use.The Federal Code of Regulations section 1500.82, EXEMPTS manufacturers from full labeling, allowing them to exclude "Hazardous" chemicals from their labels.The EPA reports toxic chemicals in our home cleaning and personal care products are 3 times more likely to cause cancer than outside pollutants.The President's Toxic Substances Strategy Committee warns 90% of all cancers are triggered by toxic chemicals in our home environment.The Consumer Product Safety Commission connects 150 toxic chemicals in our homes to allergies, birth defects, cancer, and psychological abnormalities. The EPA warns toxic chemicals in household cleaners cause women working at home to have a 55% HIGHER cancer risk than women working outside the home. The EPA warns the nation's worst pollution is inside our homes. A number of homes tested have toxic chemical levels 70 times higher inside the home than outside.


Below is a list of common household products that contain known carcinogens and/or neurotoxins. Carcinogens are chemicals that cause cancer. Neurotoxins are chemicals that adversely affect the nervous system reducing emotional well being, mental alertness, coordination and other functions associated with intelligence.

Lysol Disinfectant (all scents), Renuzit Air Deodorizer, Bon Ami Foam Cleaner, Citri-Solv, Fantastik All-Purpose Cleaner, Formula 409, Pine-Sol Multi-Action Spray, Pledge Household Cleaner, Simple Green, #### & Span Cleaner, Scotts Liquid Gold, Lemon Pledge, Tilex Soap Scum Remover, Glass Plus, Ajax Cleaner, Gillette Foamy Skin Conditioning, Speed Stick Deodorant, Soft Soap, Secret Deodorant,
S.O.S. Ammonia Glass Cleaner, Dawn,..."

You don't need to use Dawn, anyway, because any wax or sealant on the car will be removed by polishing, and a lot by claying before that. Plus, even if you were to use Dawn, it doesn't have the lubricants in it that a good car wash soap has, which helps prevent marring. Because of this, the best thing to do for the best results is to wash with a car wash soap FIRST. After you wash the car once with car wash soap, which is the best way to clean a car, why would you wash with Dawn after that, when claying and polishing are certain to remove old waxes and sealants anyway? Seems like a wasted step at best, and a waste of time and money on product, not to mention endangering your health.
Like others have said, you don't want to use a cleaner wax to remove old wax or sealants, because then you have to remove the wax you just applied with the cleaner wax, which just makes more work.

In the first pic, it looks like the clear coat is very badly scuffed up, and there are chips of clear coat missing, revealing the color base coat underneath. If so, you can't fix that with a DA. It needs repainting. I've seen that kind of damage on ground effects before, that are urethane body parts that are flexible, and so have flex agent added to the paint. You might be able to make the area look less whitish with adequate cleaning, and maybe a little fine sanding and polishing. I suppose you could even try touching up the clear if you want to experiment. It's no good like it is, so why not try fixing it? Worst case is that it will just have to be professionally repainted, which is the best way to fix it anyway.

 

[mammoth713]

I would not use Dawn since I learned that it contains carcinogens and or neurotoxins according to the Safe Shopper's Bible, by Samuel Epstein, M.D.

Hidden Toxins in the Home: Information from "The Safe Shopper's Bible" by Dr. Samuel Epstein
"ARE TOXIC HOUSEHOLD CHEMICALS POISONING YOUR FAMILY?
The Environmental Protection Agency defines chemical hazards as "acute" or"chronic:" Acute hazard, includes highly toxic, or corrosive chemicals which cause anadverse effect to an organ after short-term exposure. Chronic hazard includes carcinogens and other hazardous chemicals whichcause an adverse effect over a long-term exposure The Federal Code of Regulations defines "Hazardous Chemicals" in Section 1910.1200c Title 29. However, the term "Hazardous" does NOT include hazardous ingredients used in products designed for personal, family, or household use.The Federal Code of Regulations section 1500.82, EXEMPTS manufacturers from full labeling, allowing them to exclude "Hazardous" chemicals from their labels.The EPA reports toxic chemicals in our home cleaning and personal care products are 3 times more likely to cause cancer than outside pollutants.The President's Toxic Substances Strategy Committee warns 90% of all cancers are triggered by toxic chemicals in our home environment.The Consumer Product Safety Commission connects 150 toxic chemicals in our homes to allergies, birth defects, cancer, and psychological abnormalities. The EPA warns toxic chemicals in household cleaners cause women working at home to have a 55% HIGHER cancer risk than women working outside the home. The EPA warns the nation's worst pollution is inside our homes. A number of homes tested have toxic chemical levels 70 times higher inside the home than outside.


Below is a list of common household products that contain known carcinogens and/or neurotoxins. Carcinogens are chemicals that cause cancer. Neurotoxins are chemicals that adversely affect the nervous system reducing emotional well being, mental alertness, coordination and other functions associated with intelligence.

Lysol Disinfectant (all scents), Renuzit Air Deodorizer, Bon Ami Foam Cleaner, Citri-Solv, Fantastik All-Purpose Cleaner, Formula 409, Pine-Sol Multi-Action Spray, Pledge Household Cleaner, Simple Green, #### & Span Cleaner, Scotts Liquid Gold, Lemon Pledge, Tilex Soap Scum Remover, Glass Plus, Ajax Cleaner, Gillette Foamy Skin Conditioning, Speed Stick Deodorant, Soft Soap, Secret Deodorant,
S.O.S. Ammonia Glass Cleaner, Dawn,..."

You don't need to use Dawn, anyway, because any wax or sealant on the car will be removed by polishing, and a lot by claying before that. Plus, even if you were to use Dawn, it doesn't have the lubricants in it that a good car wash soap has, which helps prevent marring. Because of this, the best thing to do for the best results is to wash with a car wash soap FIRST. After you wash the car once with car wash soap, which is the best way to clean a car, why would you wash with Dawn after that, when claying and polishing are certain to remove old waxes and sealants anyway? Seems like a wasted step at best, and a waste of time and money on product, not to mention endangering your health.
Like others have said, you don't want to use a cleaner wax to remove old wax or sealants, because then you have to remove the wax you just applied with the cleaner wax, which just makes more work.

In the first pic, it looks like the clear coat is very badly scuffed up, and there are chips of clear coat missing, revealing the color base coat underneath. If so, you can't fix that with a DA. It needs repainting. I've seen that kind of damage on ground effects before, that are urethane body parts that are flexible, and so have flex agent added to the paint. You might be able to make the area look less whitish with adequate cleaning, and maybe a little fine sanding and polishing. I suppose you could even try touching up the clear if you want to experiment. It's no good like it is, so why not try fixing it? Worst case is that it will just have to be professionally repainted, which is the best way to fix it anyway.

sorry but thats kind of hard to believe dawn is listed next to toilet and tile scum cleaners as being "toxic", but thanks for the information I will consider it.

About the fender behind the front tires, As I mentioned previously, its not as bad as depicted in the photo. It was "clean" when I took the photo. So either its just so badly scuffed that it looks permanently dirty, or its actually missing clearcoat as you suggested, or maybe its just wax and gunk built up that i cant get off?

May be a stupid question, but can you even use a DA on edges like that and not cause harm (given that there actually is clearcoat there)?


Edit, if you see my avatar, you can notice its not nearly as white and scuffed as in the other provided photo just to give you more of an idea of the damage there. Im sorry it's such a bad original picture (car is in storage now and those are the only pictures i have to work with for now)

 

[Blackthorn One]

sorry but thats kind of hard to believe dawn is listed next to toilet and tile scum cleaners as being "toxic", but thanks for the information I will consider it.

About the fender behind the front tires, As I mentioned previously, its not as bad as depicted in the photo. It was "clean" when I took the photo. So either its just so badly scuffed that it looks permanently dirty, or its actually missing clearcoat as you suggested, or maybe its just wax and gunk built up that i cant get off?

May be a stupid question, but can you even use a DA on edges like that and not cause harm (given that there actually is clearcoat there)?


Edit, if you see my avatar, you can notice its not nearly as white and scuffed as in the other provided photo just to give you more of an idea of the damage there. Im sorry it's such a bad original picture (car is in storage now and those are the only pictures i have to work with for now)

You CAN burn edges with a DA if you are not careful. You should always do edges by hand, unless you are talking about polishing a larger area, going close to the edge, in which case you can get as close as possible without actually buffing the edge. You can polish paint off edges by hand, for that matter, if you spend enough time. The dark spots look like clearcoat missing, and as far as the whitish look, it is my guess that the clearcoat is catching the light at such an angle as to show a whitish appearance. If so, it can be subdued to some degree by polishing. In some cases, whitish clearcoat is the beginning of clearcoat failure, which cannot be buffed out. It's difficult to tell from the pics.

 

[mammoth713]

You CAN burn edges with a DA if you are not careful. You should always do edges by hand, unless you are talking about polishing a larger area, going close to the edge, in which case you can get as close as possible without actually buffing the edge. You can polish paint off edges by hand, for that matter, if you spend enough time. The dark spots look like clearcoat missing, and as far as the whitish look, it is my guess that the clearcoat is catching the light at such an angle as to show a whitish appearance. If so, it can be subdued to some degree by polishing. In some cases, whitish clearcoat is the beginning of clearcoat failure, which cannot be buffed out. It's difficult to tell from the pics.

so could i use the DA Polisher on the spot where it has 4 humps in the hood behind the headlights? or no because its uneven and crevice-like?

or are you limited to doing it by hand there? How do the pros do it?

 

[c5z06camaro]

so could i use the DA Polisher on the spot where it has 4 humps in the hood behind the headlights? or no because its uneven and crevice-like?

or are you limited to doing it by hand there? How do the pros do it?

Yes you can bro. I did use a pc on my bros nbm ss and my friends z28.

 

[Blackthorn One]

so could i use the DA Polisher on the spot where it has 4 humps in the hood behind the headlights? or no because its uneven and crevice-like?

or are you limited to doing it by hand there? How do the pros do it?

Yes. I would start by polishing in the crease using the edge of the pad to get in completely, and then switching to the other side of the crease and polishing that side, again, with the edge of the pad in the crease, or as far in the crease as the other pass didn't reach. Just remember that when polishing inside a crease, if you have to apply any pressure to squeeze the pad down to reach the bottom of the crease, there will be much more pressure applied just next to the crease, and you will thus be removing material much quicker on those higher spots.
This is why I recommend doing the creases first, because if you do the surrounding area first, you will buff more than needed on any areas that you have overlapped with your buffing, which removes excess material.

It is a similar technique to painting, to avoid runs. You always paint nooks and crannies first, and then you paint the overall large areas so that the paint can be even. Otherwise, if you paint the crevices last, you will invariably put too much paint right near the crevice where you overlapped your application of previous paint, thus applying too much paint to that area, which causes a run in the paint.
This may sound like making this more complicated than is really necessary, because, honestly, You can probably buff the area without paying any attention to this principle, and still get the job done for a few times, with no discernible ill effects. However, what about long term? I think that it is always important to employ any techniques that can conserve paint thickness as much as possible.

 

[SeaJay's]

thanks for the advice, I will check all that out. And yeah behind the wheels its faded kind of.. I'm not experienced enough to know if its repairable with a DA or not.. Its almost like its so scratched that it has fully lost its gloss.. Do you think I could use the DA in this area? I noticed last year when I used the Poorboy's AIO polish/sealant by hand application it definitely helped gloss over that area a bit. However, it didnt fix it...

So what do you think about it?

It very well be that the clear coat is completely gone. Try taking a pad and come polish and polishing the area. If you see color on your pad then the clear is gone. As for trying to hit that area with a DA I'm not sure I'd want to try it. Since it's a plastic fender (at least I think it is!). It may end up shaking a lot and causing more damage. I'd try polishing it up by hand using the polishes/compounds your going to use on the rest of the car.

 

[mammoth713]

Yes you can bro. I did use a pc on my bros nbm ss and my friends z28.

sweet thanks

Yes. I would start by polishing in the crease using the edge of the pad to get in completely, and then switching to the other side of the crease and polishing that side, again, with the edge of the pad in the crease, or as far in the crease as the other pass didn't reach. Just remember that when polishing inside a crease, if you have to apply any pressure to squeeze the pad down to reach the bottom of the crease, there will be much more pressure applied just next to the crease, and you will thus be removing material much quicker on those higher spots.
This is why I recommend doing the creases first, because if you do the surrounding area first, you will buff more than needed on any areas that you have overlapped with your buffing, which removes excess material.

It is a similar technique to painting, to avoid runs. You always paint nooks and crannies first, and then you paint the overall large areas so that the paint can be even. Otherwise, if you paint the crevices last, you will invariably put too much paint right near the crevice where you overlapped your application of previous paint, thus applying too much paint to that area, which causes a run in the paint.
This may sound like making this more complicated than is really necessary, because, honestly, You can probably buff the area without paying any attention to this principle, and still get the job done for a few times, with no discernible ill effects. However, what about long term? I think that it is always important to employ any techniques that can conserve paint thickness as much as possible.

Yeah I understand what you're saying, it makes sense. Thanks!

It very well be that the clear coat is completely gone. Try taking a pad and come polish and polishing the area. If you see color on your pad then the clear is gone. As for trying to hit that area with a DA I'm not sure I'd want to try it. Since it's a plastic fender (at least I think it is!). It may end up shaking a lot and causing more damage. I'd try polishing it up by hand using the polishes/compounds your going to use on the rest of the car.

Good point, forgot about that.. As I mentioned above, i did the car all by hand with the products I have currently and if I remember right, i used Meg's Ultimate compound down there and it helped but I DO NOT remember seeing the pad turn black. We'll have to see in spring, I'll try it again.


Might be a dumb question: when you mask off the car and use "painters tape", is this the same tape as the blue tape you usually use in houses on walls too?


2nd of all, I could use the DA on the back bumper then too? What do I do about the edge there? Should I do everything but the edge with the DA and then do the edge by hand?

Thanks for all the advice so far!

 

[c5z06camaro]

I use 3m automotive green tape they sell them at any auto parts store.
Yes you can do the back bumper with the da, just be careful with the pad when you go down to the tips as you can see the slp tips are sharp.

 

[mammoth713]

I use 3m automotive green tape they sell them at any auto parts store.
Yes you can do the back bumper with the da, just be careful with the pad when you go down to the tips as you can see the slp tips are sharp.

ok great thanks for the help!


So when i go to use the DA, should i use the tape to tape off edges? I.E. seam of the hood and the front quarter pannels, etc..