Always wanted to ask

Wes Bremec

Wes Bremec

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How many corrections can you do on one single vehicle. I know most are gonna say one and maintain the finish but realistically how many 2 step corrections can be done on one single vehicle. Is there a real answer to this question with a comfortable answer????? Every single cars paint thickness is different in some way
 
I really don't think there's a universal standard to that... Environmental conditions, owner maintenance and technique in doing so, 'hardness' of clear coat system, thickness of clear coat system, whether or not it was repainted, sharp body angles to consider...

I think if anyone here was to give a universal answer, the answer would be one and done.
 
Wes Bremec said:
How many corrections can you do on one single vehicle. I know most are gonna say one and maintain the finish but realistically how many 2 step corrections can be done on one single vehicle. Is there a real answer to this question with a comfortable answer????? Every single cars paint thickness is different in some way
Click to expand...

On my 1992 Ford Explorer I probably corrected the finish (with a DA) about 20-30 times.

Looked great right up to the point where the clear coat failed.

Considering that was after 17 years of ownership I think that I got a pretty good lifespan out of the paint.

And it wasn't the correcting that caused the failure. It was exposure to UV rays in the sunlight.

I say that because the first point of failure was the middle of the roof, which got the LEAST amount of polishing. The last place to turn to crap was the hood. It got the MOST correction, but also got the most amount of wax. It was washed and waxed at least once a month during it's life.

That says to me that it's the wax layer protecting the paint that really adds to the lifespan. Not so much the polishing that takes the lifespan away.
 
I ask because I have a customer that I performed a two step with the wolfgang twins which to me is using a mild polish (tsw) and a finish polish (fg). Orange and white pads on a da. I find it hard to believe on this ford paint that there isn't enough clear for further correction.
 
Depends on the age of the vehicle (older = thicker paint/clear)
Depends on single vs two stage paint
Depends on the prior work
Depends on .....

Using a paint gauge would give you a better idea than all this speculative thinking.
 
Hard to say! It's a question I have pondered myself. In my typical 2 step process takes off anywhere from 2-8 microns of CC. Many many factors but that's my typical average. Hope this gives you a general idea.
 
In regards to factory paint-kitchen CC-sprays:

-It's not just how many times CC can be safely corrected...
-But also how much of the CC's UV-protection can be
safely removed before voiding paint warranties.


Here's a scale that was used a couple of years ago:

-CC's thickness ~ 50 microns
-UV-protection is throughout the CC...
With the majority lying within the top 50%
-OEM's warranties are voided if more than 25% of
CC's UV-protection is removed...~6-7 microns..maximum!!


BTW: OEM's state their paint warranty is also voided/re-spray will be in order...
if more than ~.3-.5 mils (7.5-12 microns) of CC has been removed.


All that's left to perform is a: Vehicle's CC averaging-method...
to determine the amount of CC, and its removal-amount,
before/during/after "corrections". (An EPTG comes in handy)

Example:
Wool pad on a rotary using M105 @ 1800 rpms?


Also remember:
Every model year...
OEM's are requesting 'thinner and thinner' paints from their paint vendors.


Bob
 
Wow are you a body shop manager ........I don't know If you should of posted something that critical. I'll sell all four of my polishers now lol:(
 
I always recommend daily drivers to go for paint enhancement if they will not change on how they wash their vehicles.

Some want 100% correction and they still don't want to change their style of getting the car washed.
 
Well as soon as I get back in town I'm going to get insurance for this upcoming season.
 
Some more ???

1. How thin is too thin (in microns) to do any polishing? I realize it varies by vehicle.

2. Where's the best spot to measure the original CC thickness with a PTG? Some say by the rocker panel with the door open, but some say the paint is applied thinner there.

3. If your working on your own personal car, how important is keeping the UV top most protection layer of the clear coat intact, when most of us are using LSPs the give UV protection?

Just wondering on others opinions.
 
swanicyouth said:
Some more ???

1. How thin is too thin (in microns) to do any polishing? I realize it varies by vehicle.

2. Where's the best spot to measure the original CC thickness with a PTG? Some say by the rocker panel with the door open, but some say the paint is applied thinner there.

3. If your working on your own personal car, how important is keeping the UV top most protection layer of the clear coat intact, when most of us are using LSPs the give UV protection?

Just wondering on others opinions.
Click to expand...

Hope this helps!

1. Of course it depends on the vehicle and the paint system. Overall though, base and clear coats are relative. My general rule of thumb is the clear makes up almost half of the overall thickness. The new mazdas out there are around the thinnest I have ever seen at 50-60 microns in total. You have to clear be very careful and ginger in your polishing. 2007 Jag X-type I measured was around 150-250 microns. From my own rule on the Mazda, if I started getting in the low 40's to high 30's I would not touch it and recommend a respray. On the Jag anything near 100 I would not touch or keep going clearly.

2. Are you meaning the original thickness from the factory, or the average thickness of the CC? Unless you have a $2K Defelsko 200, you need to be more creative. Typically door jams are a good place to start. Yes the pain is thinner there, but so is the clear coat. This is a great, safe place to set a benchmark. To get the original factory thickness, find an awkward place that a buffer would not fit. I like to either measure right up near the door mirrors or if you have a rear spoiler, measure there. These areas typically have not been heavily polished or thinned due to difficulty to fit a buffer right up. Quite often you have to make the best of what you got though.

3. Let Bob answer this one.
 
Andr3wilson said:
Hope this helps!

1. Of course it depends on the vehicle and the paint system. Overall though, base and clear coats are relative. My general rule of thumb is the clear makes up almost half of the overall thickness. The new mazdas out there are around the thinnest I have ever seen at 50-60 microns in total. You have to clear be very careful and ginger in your polishing. 2007 Jag X-type I measured was around 150-250 microns. From my own rule on the Mazda, if I started getting in the low 40's to high 30's I would not touch it and recommend a respray. On the Jag anything near 100 I would not touch or keep going clearly.

2. Are you meaning the original thickness from the factory, or the average thickness of the CC? Unless you have a $2K Defelsko 200, you need to be more creative. Typically door jams are a good place to start. Yes the pain is thinner there, but so is the clear coat. This is a great, safe place to set a benchmark. To get the original factory thickness, find an awkward place that a buffer would not fit. I like to either measure right up near the door mirrors or if you have a rear spoiler, measure there. These areas typically have not been heavily polished or thinned due to difficulty to fit a buffer right up. Quite often you have to make the best of what you got though.

3. Let Bob answer this one.
Click to expand...

that's excellent advise. Thanks!
 
swanicyouth said:
Some more ???

1. How thin is too thin (in microns) to do any polishing? I realize it varies by vehicle.

If a vehicle has never been compounded/polished after leaving the assembly line...
With...(And I'm going to be generous here)...the thickness of the CC: ~1.5-2 mils (~38-50 microns)

Then:
-The OEM's "paint-UV protection-warranty" can be voided if there's (discounting among other items...Act of God, etc.):

Removal of more than 25% the CC-paint's UV protection...
(Using the ~1.5- 2.0 mils figure: ~6-7 microns!)

And:
-The OEM's entire paint-warranty can be voided if there's (discounting among other items...Act of God, etc.):

Removal of more than: ~12-14 microns (using the ~1.5-2.0 mils figure)


-CC paint is said to be about as thick as a (choose your poison):
A $1 bill; half the thickness of a sheet of copy-paper;
A folded-upon-itself cigarette cellophane wrapper; etc.

-Perhaps it becomes a judgemental call...even with a EPTG.


2. Where's the best spot to measure the original CC thickness with a PTG? Some say by the rocker panel with the door open, but some say the paint is applied thinner there.

-I say, to ensure that the most "beneficial-measurements"
for polishing CC-paint are made and recorded by:

Using the averaging-method I alluded to an earlier post...
Not only by taking numerous readings all over the vehicle's panels...
and recording them on a template...
But, also, as you perform detailing tasks...
As well as upon completion of the polishing-session.

Here's an excellent template I found (Courtesy of: TOGWT)
PTGTemplate.jpg



-How many folks will actually do this measuring process?
Hardly any, I suspect.

But if a person would do so...just once...
It would assure them of a real eye-opener to their detailing processes and CC-paint.

3. If your working on your own personal car, how important is keeping the UV top most protection layer of the clear coat intact, when most of us are using LSPs the give UV protection?

I'd also include customers in this equation. I wouldn't want their vehicles to incur earlier than expected CC failure.

What LSP"s are we using that have the ability to replace the abraded-away: CC-UV-protection?

So far Optimum Car Wax is the only one I'm aware of that has been:
"ANSI-tested"...as being capable of doing such a feat!

Just wondering on others opinions.

^^^FWIW: There's mine.^^^ :D


Andr3wilson said:
Hope this helps!

1. Of course it depends on the vehicle and the paint system. Overall though, base and clear coats are relative.


My general rule of thumb is the clear makes up almost half of the overall thickness.

And here I thought I was being generous giving factory CC ~ 1.5-2.0 mils!


The new mazdas out there are around the thinnest I have ever seen at 50-60 microns in total.
You have to clear be very careful and ginger in your polishing.

Is this 50-60 microns in total: The CC paint thickness?
If so...Isn't that about the "normal thickness" for factory sprayed CC-paint.



2007 Jag X-type I measured was around 150-250 microns.

^^^6-10 mils?^^^ :wow:
And: No re-spray either?


From my own rule on the Mazda, if I started getting in the low 40's to high 30's I would not touch it and recommend a respray. On the Jag anything near 100 I would not touch or keep going clearly.

^^^:dunno:^^^


2. ...
I like to either measure right up near the door mirrors or if you have a rear spoiler, measure there. These areas typically have not been heavily polished or thinned due to difficulty to fit a buffer right up. Quite often you have to make the best of what you got though.


Good areas for EPTG points of reference! :props:


3. Let Bob answer this one.

I tried
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


:)

Bob
 
- Bob

1. 50-60 Microns was the total! E-coat, primer, base, clear, all together made 50-60 microns :eek:. Fresh off the lot, no previous polishing! I said almost half of the overall thickness. On my Merc, the thickness from the factory was 110-120, in the jam it is 65-69, roughly half. Most cars I have measured seem to follow this.

2. Well the Jag was mostly in between 200-170, dipping to 150 in some areas. I blame poor spraying methods, according to the owner, other than refinished rims, no body work was done. (I will be posting the transformation when it come in the spring dark black/blue)

I would also like to add that near and inside badges are also great places to get measurements!

Sorry if I am posting stuff that doesn't make sense! I am recovering from some oral surgery and the anesthetic is still wearing off!
 
Andr3wilson said:
- Bob

1. 50-60 Microns was the total! E-coat, primer, base, clear, all together made 50-60 microns :eek:. Fresh off the lot, no previous polishing!

Egads Man!!
A cheap, coarse Costco MF towel, and some M105,
could rub-off all of that CC-paint

Sorry if I am posting stuff that doesn't make sense! I am recovering from some oral surgery and the anesthetic is still wearing off!

At least you have an excuse...{J/K}
(I'm hardly ever "blessed" in having one.)

Anyway...Here's wishing you a quick, successful recovery!
Click to expand...

Bob
 
In the context of this thread, there are two meters I'm considering. The Highline Meter II and the CM8801FN (auction site) which appears to be a Chinese knock off. Do you guys have an opinion? Thanks as I believe this is something I should own and use.
 
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