How to remove Orange Peel using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike these pads are interesting. I've read about them but have never used them. I do see a reason for having some on hand. My questions are somewhat subjective.

1. Say for the truck hood you did, how many pads would be required to complete just the hood?

The most difficult thing to do with these pads is clean them really good in-between buffing sections. The face of the pad becomes hard and almost glazed looking with use.

Brushing them with a stiff nylon brush helps but you never get the pad back to where it looked when it was new and that's what most people think they are going to do and what to do when cleaning a pad.

As long as you get any excess product off the face of the pad that appears to be good enough. The edges of the pads seem to want to curl inward, not sure if this is a huge deal or not. I can take a picture to show what I mean.

2. How long will a denim pad last relative to say a foam backed finishing disc?

That's one of those apples to oranges questions as these denim pads are very different from a microfiber pad.

The denim pad is just like your jeans and after being attached to the backing the surface is hard and non-giving. The microfiber pads are soft to the touch and have some level of cushion to them.

Also, these denim pads are for removing orange peel while the microfiber pads are for removing below surface defects or polishing and waxing.

I'm guessing a Flex 3401 might be an ideal tool being direct drive and that it oscillates.

A couple of comments...

1. Thin, hard pads don't buff really well on forced, rotation, gear-driven oscillating tools.

For example, the Meguiar's microfiber pads and the Lake Country "THIN" microfiber pads don't buff well on the Flex 3401.

Thicker pads do buff well on the Flex 3401, for example the thick Lake Country microfiber pads buff really well on the Flex 3401.

Instead of asking people to take my word for it I purposefully had two other experienced detailers test out both thin and thick microfiber pads on the Flex 3401 and then post their experience, you can read Robert's and Paul's thoughts on the thick versus thin MF Pads in posts #26 and #33 here,



2012 Dodge Challenger + Menzerna Color Lock Makeover




2. Currently the Denim pads by CarPro are only available in the 5 1/4" size. The factory backing plate on the Flex 3401 is just under 5 1/2". I just fitted one of these pads to the factory backing plate and it's undersized.

But again, I'm pretty sure if you tried these types of pads on a Flex 3401 the feeling you will get is what we call...

G-r-a-b-b-y


Because tools like the PC are free spinning, that is for lack of a better term they offer slippage which keeps the pad buffing smooth on the surface.

I like the safety factor over wet sanding but would look for something quicker than 8-12 passes.

Time is the trade-off for safety but you are cutting out the compounding step and keep in mind, compounding can bring with it heat issues as well as burn-through issues not to mention the time and mess associated with the compounding step, even little things like spurring a wool pad often when compounding out sanding marks.

As for the time issue, again I don't think anyone has dialed-in the perfect compound for this procedure yet. A lot of compounds tried, talked about but no definitive "Compound K is the best" type of conclusion yet.

I see this as a way of spot correcting quickly vs sanding and then polishing out the sanding marks. Could be a nice upsell or a way to deliver that something extra for a client.

It's an option that will reduce orange peel, maybe not remove it 100% depending upon the time factor.

It's definitely a new technology, new idea that will get more attention into the future and if things go like they normally go on forums like this one, the procedure will get perfected and then shared and then we'll all know.

That's why I say,

"Detailers that hang out on forums like this one know more than detailers that don't hang out on forums at all"

 

[tguil]

How about "dieback"? Can the peeling pads be used for this?

Tom

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

How about "dieback"? Can the peeling pads be used for this?

Tom

Yes if it's topical, that is on the surface.


Dieback - Before

Dieback - After

Before and After

How's the close-up photography in these pictures?

 

[erichaley]

The most difficult thing to do with these pads is clean them really good in-between buffing sections. The face of the pad becomes hard and almost glazed looking with use.

Brushing them with a stiff nylon brush helps but you never get the pad back to where it looked when it was new and that's what most people think they are going to do and what to do when cleaning a pad.

I found that a bug scrubber sponge does a wonderful job of cleaning these pads. They last about 5-6x longer before needing washed!

For the fraying issue, trimming them with a pair of scissors before they get bad helps tremendously!

2. Currently the Denim pads by CarPro are only available in the 5 1/4" size.

CarPro also makes these pads in 3" and 4" sizes. I have a ton of all three sizes as they do wear out fast, which I assume is due to them being used on a DA.

 

[rmagnus]

2. How long will a denim pad last realitive to say a foam backed finishing disc?

That's one of those apples to oranges questions as these denim pads are very different from a microfiber pad.

The denim pad is just like your jeans and after being attached to the backing the surface is hard and non-giving. The microfiber pads are soft to the touch and have some level of cushion to them.

Also, these denim pads are for removing orange peel while the microfiber pads are for removing below surface defects or polishing and waxing.

Mike thanks for the detailed answers.

On Q#2 Ahhh the english language, I didn't explain myself very well. I wasn't asking about microfiber pads but rather sanding disc like the foamed backed Meguiars or 3M version. I believe they are 3000 grit and higher in 3M's case.

Designed to just level peaks and valleys of orange peel vs remove it like hard sand paper.

I find the 3000 grit to loose it's cut pretty quickly. Just wondering if the denim last longer. I wasn't sure how many pads you went through doing the hood of that truck.

Even though this is new technology and detailers are still testing I think there is a place for this in the arsenal.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I found that a bug scrubber sponge does a wonderful job of cleaning these pads. They last about 5-6x longer before needing washed!

For the fraying issue, trimming them with a pair of scissors before they get bad helps tremendously!

Thanks for the tips, I'll put them to use right away.

CarPro also makes these pads in 3" and 4" sizes. I have a ton of all three sizes as they do wear out fast, which I assume is due to them being used on a DA.

Good to know. I'm a huge fan of 3" sanding discs for getting into tight areas. Just makes good sense.

 

[statusdetailing]

I can see these pads being a problem on curved panels and tight spaces. Being harder, will they conform around curves panels?

Im gueasing in tight spaces you will still need to wet or damp sand.


Like you mentioned a smaller 3 or 4 inch pad might be helpful.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I'm getting ready to post some of the pictures I took from this project. Last Friday was kind of busy with some other projects as was both yesterday and today.


Also wanted to take a moment to give due credit where credit is due, something I like to practice as I never knowingly take or use other guy's work or ideas and present them as my own.

In this thread,

Thinking of wet sanding my whole car - advice wanted


Post #36

Eric aka erichaley shared that he had been using the CarPr Denim pads with DA Polishers instead of the CarPro recommended rotary buffers and having good success with this approach.

Here's his post...

If you must wet sand, try the CarPro denim pads instead. I have had incredible results on removing the orange peel on my car.

Yes, I've read the warnings, I have a PTG, and I'm prepared for the worst.

The denim pads on a DA are roughly equivalent to the velvet pads on a rotary. You'll need a bunch of pads as they seem to get chewed up on a DA (they weren't designed for a DA, do I don't fault them for it).

The trick is to work at a speed of about 4 with barely enough pressure to hold the machine to the surface. In fact, you almost need to lift up on it.

So thank you Eric for pioneering this appoach as it not only seems to work but like I posted previously in this thread in Post #8

Notice I purposefully used a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher. I did this on purpose because as long as you maintain pad rotation, and that's pretty easy to do since these pads are THIN then you're doing the same thing a rotary buffer would do, that is rotating the pad.

So I figured not only would it work but it would open the door to a LOT more people being able to use these pads as more people own and are comfortable with using a Porter Cable DA, Meguiar's DA and Griot's DA type polishers than they are with rotary buffers.

Using a DA polisher instead of a rotary buffer also means you can work cooler as a DA does NOT generate the kind of heat a rotary can create which could lead to burning or twisting of the paint.

Plus, when used with a rotary buffer, that is a DIRECT DRIVE tool that only rotates the pad in a single direction, it's a lot harder to control the buffing action than with the Porter Cable style tool. This has to do with the oscillating and free spinning spindle drive aspect of the tool.

With the dual action polisher, these pads are very easy to use.

So if I'm able to get the kind of results you see in the pictures in this thread using the Porter Cable 7424XP, then think of what you could do with your Porter Cable, or Meguair's or Griot's dual action polisher?

Kind of opens the door to removing orange peel to a lot more people now doesn't it?


Hang tight... pictures going up on the first page of this thread...

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Okay....



Just posted all the pictures from this project to the first page of this thread here,


How to remove Orange Peel using a Porter Cable Dual Action Polisher


I think if you check out the results and keep in mind this is as easy as buffing out swirls and scratches using a Porter Cable, Meguiar's or Griot's Polisher you, like me will be impressed.

 

[Avi@CarPro]

Hi Mike

thank you for great informative review, i think you covered it all , and many guys will now be more relaxed using it.
about the thickness measure, as you said its hard to take number since the paint doesnt have same measure all over,
a good way to do it is to use laser point light , not moving , and place the meter at that exact point its target, this way you can have very close numbers before and after.
as i wrote in another thread , each pass will remove about 2~3 microns from the clearcoat, using the denims

here is a pic showing how the paint is pointed with a laser spot.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hi Mike

thank you for great informative review, i think you covered it all , and many guys will now be more relaxed using it.

That was the goal... I know a lot of people don't like the amount of orange peel they see in their car's finish but are not ready or able to take on wetsanding.

a good way to do it is to use laser point light , not moving , and place the meter at that exact point its target, this way you can have very close numbers before and after.

Good tip!

I'll try to get some good before and after readings on the next project that I do by myself.

I had multiple guys removing orange peel because a number of people wanted to test these pads out and anytime you have different people doing a process like this you're going to have some variance due to style.

Will try to get some of the actual "after" pictures from this project up tomorrow.


:xyxthumbs:

 

[fishbonezken]

Great article and photos Mike! I never imagined that flattening using velvet/denim pads on a DA machine was possible!
I did an article of orange peel removal via sanding vs compounding here:

Analysis: Sanding vs. Velvet Pad Compounding to reduce orange peel. Which removes more paint? | Wet Shine – Malaysia's Premier Auto Detailing Blog, Reviews, Tests, Details, Articles, Events










Before


After

I concluded that 'sanding removed less paint than compounding to remove orange peel'. Granted it was only a one time test and I should repeat it for a more consistent conclusion.

I will have to try these pads on DA next! Will be less risky to work with compared to rotary.

 

[lunchboxmunchy]

Nicely done Mike. Although, I wouldn't expect anything less than perfect!

Keep Calm & Chive On

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Great article and photos Mike! I never imagined that flattening using velvet/denim pads on a DA machine was possible!

It's a very interesting technique and it just goes to show that all of us need to be open to new ideas, that is new pads, products, tools and techniques.

None of us knows everything because new technology is continually being introduced as these pads and this technique demonstrates. That's why I always say that detailers that hang out of forums like AGO know more than detailers that don't hang out on any forum.

Detailing discussion forums is where new information breaks.


When I saw Todd Helme remove orange peel using a rotary buffer I was a believer but I also saw that using a rotary buffer made the buffing experience awkward as is the case when you run a hard disc over the surface with a direct drive single rotating tool.

This same awkward buffing experience takes place when you use a rotary buffer to buff glass with abrasive glass polishes to remove scratches out of the glass. The one thing I found that makes machine buffing glass with a rotary buffer easier, or at least makes the buffing experience less grabby and awkward is a quality flexible backing plate. Like shown here,

How to remove tiny pinhole pits in glass windows using a rotary buffer



Note: The Glass Cutting discs are hard and thin, that's their characteristic, just an observation, not a negative or positive comment. The point is they are thin and hard and glass is hard so one thing that helps a lot when buffing glass is to use the glass cutting discs with a flexible backing plate which helps make the buffing process smoother.

Note the flexible backing plate on the Flex PE14 rotary buffer.

My guess is using a flexible backing plate with orange peel removing pads on rotary buffers would also make the buffing experience easier but using a flexible backing plate might also defeat the purpose of using a flat, hard disc to knock down the tops of orange peel.


This is why I purposefully chose to use the dual action polisher with the CarPro Orange Peel Pads. I figured it would be a lot easier to move the polisher over the surface and as long as a person maintains pad rotation you could accomplish the same thing you could accomplish with a rotary buffer.

This will also open the door to a lot more people that want to remove orange peel or even lessen it but that don't own and/or don't want to use a rotary buffer.

I did an article of orange peel removal via sanding vs compounding here:


I concluded that 'sanding removed less paint than compounding to remove orange peel'. Granted it was only a one time test and I should repeat it for a more consistent conclusion.

Before these orange peel removal pads were introduced the historic way to remove orange peel was to wetsand, not just use a compound.


You can remove orange peel by compounding only as I proved this to myself back around 1990 on a 1958 Chevy Belair. Heck... I even have an article on this...

Can orange peel be removed or lessoned by just machine compounding?

I will have to try these pads on DA next! Will be less risky to work with compared to rotary.

Exactly.

Remember, the verdict is still un-answered as to which compound works the best for this technique. Could be a less advanced compound that is more like liquid sandpaper, (that is real gritty to the touch), might actually cut the tops of the orange peel better than a quality SMAT or DAT product. It's my guess it will but it also won't leave the paint looking polished. Just a guess.

Nicely done Mike. Although, I wouldn't expect anything less than perfect!

Like I said, we've had these pads for a while and I've just been waiting for the right project car to test them out. The curves of the hood on this truck don't make for the best testing panel but they do put the pads and the person's skill to the test.

 

[fishbonezken]

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply and links to related articles. Much appreciated!

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

And here's the complete write-up for this project featuring Scholls Concepts compounds, polishes and waxes...


1949 Chevy 5-Window Pickup Extreme Makeover - Pictures & Videos

:xyxthumbs:

 

[Perfessor]

Hi Mike,
I've read through many of your articles and other members posts, but either I'm not seeing it, or I'm not understanding what I'm reading about 'orange peel' paint.

The hills and valleys of the orange peel, is this caused by the paint itself, is it caused by the clear coat on top of the paint, or a combination of the two?

I most definitely would like to get rid of the orange peel on my car, but if its in the paint only, then I'd have to remove the clear coat to get to it. Since I bought the car used, I have no idea if the paint on it is OEM or aftermarket. Or how think the paint or clear coat is.

After reading this (the above post), lets me think that I could do it myself instead of having to take it a body shop. (Doing myself would be less expensive [cheaper, lol]).

Thanks in advance.
Scott

 

[brondondolon]

After watching the first video on pg 1 i immediately reached for my wallet to buy the noted products. Then after reading i saw that people were against using it on OEM paint. I have a black 2009 Dodge ram 1500 with OEM paint but every time i detail it i think to my self "wow looks great! aside from all that orange peel..." i want it gone but im not confident in my wet sanding abilities. This seems like a great alternative.

My question is why would you NOT want to use the denim pad on a OEM paint? Obviously id be removing clear coat but is the concern that ill be removing so much id be going into the paint or is it that ill be removing enough that ill reach a threshold after a few details where i will no longer be able to buff normally without burning into the paint?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hi Mike,
I've read through many of your articles and other members posts, but either I'm not seeing it, or I'm not understanding what I'm reading about 'orange peel' paint.

The hills and valleys of the orange peel, is this caused by the paint itself, is it caused by the clear coat on top of the paint, or a combination of the two?

Orange peel is caused by the way the paint is mixed, sprayed and dried. I'm not a painter so perhaps a real painter can do a better job of specifically stating why freshly sprayed paint will lay down on the surface and then dry with the shape or texture of a bumpy orange peel.

It can be in both the basecoat and the clearcoat but it's usually a problem in the clear layer as the basecoat is usually very thin.

I most definitely would like to get rid of the orange peel on my car, but if its in the paint only, then I'd have to remove the clear coat to get to it. Since I bought the car used, I have no idea if the paint on it is OEM or aftermarket. Or how think the paint or clear coat is.

After reading this (the above post), lets me think that I could do it myself instead of having to take it a body shop. (Doing myself would be less expensive [cheaper, lol]).

Thanks in advance.
Scott

I wish I had 5 bucks for every post I've read like yours above.

No car enthusiast like the orange peel in their paint and most car enthusiast don't understand how hard or how thin the factory paint is.

Short answer is this....

"Yes" you can remove the orange peel and the safe way to do it would be by using the CarPro Orange Peel Removal Pads on a dual action polisher. Get the Denim pads.

You'll need a compound and as I've posted numerous times on this forum, the verdict is still out on which compound works BEST for this pad and process and I don't think there's an answer yet.

That said, any high quality compound will work. Stick with the best known brands ans they use the best abrasive technology.

Also read this, LOTS of good info... you'll know more than most people after you read this article.

Wetsanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint


Clearcoats are Scratch-Sensitive

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

My question is why would you NOT want to use the denim pad on a OEM paint?

Obviously id be removing clear coat but is the concern that ill be removing so much id be going into the paint or is it that ill be removing enough that ill reach a threshold after a few details where i will no longer be able to buff normally without burning into the paint?

Here's the deal...

Correctly done, all you're going to remove is the hills or bumpy portions leaving the majority of the clear intact.

If I were going to do it I would use the Denim pads because it will be faster as they are more effective.

Stick with the best brand compounds and take your time.


Also, consider only doing the verticle panels since this is a truck and harder to look down on the hood. The SUN shines on the hood more and you need all the factory paint and UV protection inside the factory clear that you can get for the paint to last over the service life of the mechanicals.


Make sense?

See page 2 of my article,

Beginning Clearcoat Failure.... --> good info...