Polishing Speed Effects, do I need another tool?

Durallymax

Durallymax

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Couldn't think of a good way to phrase the title, but my question pertains to metal polishing. Mostly on big trucks.

I purchased a Flex PE14 due to the reviews, and my love for German tools. I chose the rotary over the DA because I wanted to learn rotary anyways, but a large part was due to the fact I could use it for metal polishing. However the dilemma I now face is the speed. All of my wheels and rouge bars will be here Monday so I am kind of jumping the gun and just speculating out loud here.

Most people seem to opt for using a 9" variable speed sander for this application. This allows you to run the 10" Air Way wheels versus the 8" I purchased for running on the Flex.

The next issue is RPMs. The Flex will only do 2100RPMs. The Air Ways can run 3200 for the 10" and 3400rpm for the 8".

Since these are made to be run on edge, my calculations below show the rough Inches Per Minute of each tool

8"@2100RPM=52,773ipm
10"@3200RPM=100,544ipm

Thats nearly double the speed. The air way wheels really seem to take a lot of power, but It still seems the high powered motor in a 9" machine could maintain 3200RPM. The Flex looks to be very powerful and I would think it could maintain speed well.

The tradeoff though is the weight and size. The DeWalt isn't too bad for weight, the Milwaukee is a tank though. I'd prefer to stay German but I cannot find a variable speed 9" machine from Metabo,Flex,Fein,Festool,Walter,or Bosch.

I will be doing the majority of the long term stuff at ground level with little sections here and there, however I will be doing our Milk Tankers and such as well which will be very long projects.

I am just speculation here. If I can get by for now I am happy. However I won't have much of a comparison is the only issue.



While on the topic of the Flex PE14. Is there a bale handle that will fit it? I'll be holding it sideways a lot and I think one may be nice?

I'm sure that I will read plenty about this later, but since I have you here, would it be in my best interests to get a good DA polisher in addition to the rotary?


Thanks.
 
This from Wikipedia…

Polishing wheels come in a wide variety of types to fulfill a wide range of needs. The most common materials used for polishing wheels are wood, leather, canvas, cotton cloth, plastic, felt, paper, sheepskin, impregnated rubber, canvas composition, and wool; leather and canvas are the most common. Wooden wheels have emery or other abrasives glued onto them and are used to polish flat surfaces and maintained good edges. There are many types of cloth wheels. Cloth wheels that are cemented together are very hard and used for rough work, whereas other cloth wheels that are sewn and glued together are not as aggressive. There are cloth wheels that are not glued or cemented, instead these are sewed and have metal side plates for support. Solid felt wheels are popular for fine finishes. Hard roughing wheels can be made by cementing together strawboard paper disks. Softer paper wheels are made from felt paper.[1] Most wheels are run at approximately 7500 surface feet per minute (SFM), however muslin, felt and leather wheels are usually run at 4000 SFM.[7]

Formula for calculating surface footage.

SFM = Surface Feet Per Minute
RPM = Revolutions per Minute
Dia = Tool Diameter

RPM / 3.82 x Dia = SFM

If I use this formula on your Flex with an 8” at 2100 RMP I get a SFM of 4397.9057.
The Flex with a 10” wheel at 2100 RMP is 5497.3821 SFM.
Air Ways 10” wheel at 3200 RPM is 8376.9633 SFM.
Air Ways 8” wheel at 3400 RPM is 7120.4188 SFM.

In my opinion you would be best off finding a machine that will do 3400 RMP’s and running the 8” wheel. My thought is that the 10” wheel is going to require a very big set of arms and a ton of upper body strength to maintain for any length of time. (Tankers are Big) When operating the machine on its edge, gyroscopic precession will play a big role in your ability to stay in control of your machine over long periods of time. (From Wikipedia… Torque-induced precession (gyroscopic precession) is the phenomenon in which the axis of a spinning object (e.g., a part of a gyroscope) "wobbles" when a torque is applied to it, which causes a distribution of force around the acted axis.) The bigger the wheel the more pronounced this effect becomes.

I hope this helps,

Craig
 
Thank you for the input.

I think I will see how this setup works out for me. I do fear it may feel a bit slow, but like you mention, its more of a marathon than a sprint.

A buddy of mine has a variable speed 9" milwaukee. I may borrow it and run the 8" wheels on it just to compare speed. I like your input about the 10" wheels. Most of the people I see using them are doing fuel tanks and wheels with them. They are in a comfortable spot to handle that much force versus trying to remain balanced on scaffolding doing a tank.

I looked around again and found Bosch has a 7" variable speed model that goes to 3,000RPM with a 12 amp motor and only weighs 6lbs. Walter has a similar model that goes from 2,000-7,300 with a 12.5amp motor, weight is unlisted. Can't find much for pricing but the pricing I do find is over $500. The Bosch is under $200. There is always the DeWalt as well i guess, not too much more than the Bosch, 1LB heavier than the Flex, 12 amp motor and 3500RPM top speed.


I will have to compare the speed differences once I get a feel for the Flex. Going to get the feel for everything on some aluminum engine explosion shields for a friends pulling tractor. Lots of real estate 7'x3'.
 
Hello Durallymax, interesting situation in your Thread Title.
Polishing Speed Effects, do I need another tool?

And as cgreeen1120 stated, I also agree that the PE14 would be sorely underpowered for such a huge process involving multiple steps. But for less obvious reasons.

I fail to see the reasoning for putting the PE14 under prolonged stress of running balls to the wall (aviation term) and and barely meeting the SPM's needed to attain correction of aluminum. However, if there is any SS to be addressed, the PE14 won't even come close @ 2100rpm's. Kinda like running a 3406-B all day against the 2350 factory CAT preset...doesn't make much sense.

I find it interesting that you have quality tool tastes, but are willing to run them into the ground working on the acreage of metals that your project entails. I believe that the weight of the tool should be a secondary consideration, i.e, the ability and quality of the tool should be tops for your criteria. Especially if you are going for mirror finish, as opposed to mirror shine.

As far as polishing wheels, fuel tanks, and misc. items, one can't go wrong with the 849...great machine for aluminum...but not necessarily for huge tankers ( I failed to go back to your previously posted equipment pictures ~ my bad :) ).

Anyhoo, sending a pm link to Caswell Plating guide for aluminum polishing. Great info for beginners. I think (?) it's agaist forum rules to post link.
Also, take a look at the tool used in this video. As far as the products offerred in this link, I have no positive opinion...especially after seeing the rouge results alone - seems to be wasted steps...how to polish aluminum tonymetalart - YouTube

Great service life and ability in this one...you're gonna need it. Also, it will cut down on the time needed to complete such a tedious, time-consuming muti-step process.


Also, I see wheels, greaseless, and tools mentioned, but nothing concerning, mineral spirits, wheel rake, and end sealant - such as beeeswax mixture or Colly 845. It would be a shame to go through such a huge undertaking without sealing up the end product.

As always, looking forward to seeing your progress, and the continuation of this thread. Hope that you, and also Mr. Green, had a wonderful holiday weekend! Mine was the best in several years.
 
Vegas Transplant said:
I fail to see the reasoning for putting the PE14 under prolonged stress of running balls to the wall (aviation term) and and barely meeting the SPM's needed to attain correction of aluminum. However, if there is any SS to be addressed, the PE14 won't even come close @ 2100rpm's. Kinda like running a 3406-B all day against the 2350 factory CAT preset...doesn't make much sense.

I find it interesting that you have quality tool tastes, but are willing to run them into the ground working on the acreage of metals that your project entails. I believe that the weight of the tool should be a secondary consideration, i.e, the ability and quality of the tool should be tops for your criteria. Especially if you are going for mirror finish, as opposed to mirror shine.
Click to expand...

If the Flex is not up to the task that is fine. I bought it to use as a rotary buffer 1st and metal polisher 2nd. After using it for awhile today on paint, I don't feel it was a bad purchase and I would not want to trade it off on a "one tool does all". This machine is light and powerful for the task at hand.

I would hope it is designed to withstand heavy work loads. Afterall that is what a "quality" tool does right?

I do not run any of my tools into the ground, if it does not work for the job I will find the better tool.

The weight is a lower consideration, but when many OEMs are similar power wise, weight comes into play a lot. I love the material our 9" grinder can remove, but start using it out of position and you learn how terrible it is.

Vegas Transplant said:
As far as polishing wheels, fuel tanks, and misc. items, one can't go wrong with the 849...great machine for aluminum...but not necessarily for huge tankers ( I failed to go back to your previously posted equipment pictures ~ my bad :) ).
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I like the 849's specs. I don't plan to do huge tankers often. It would be milk tankers not the manure tanker lol. I will take a picture the day I go nuts enough to polish that tank though.

The milk tankers are all stainless barrels. They are not in bad shape, but I wouldn't mind spending some time with enough of them cleaning everything up. Fenders and Wheels as well as ladder and catwalk are all aluminum.



The other large project would be maintaining the finish on the new belt trailer we ordered. It is all aluminum. The picture below is the same thing, just a 46' long model. ours is a 42' to facilitate going in and out of fields.

4684_zps6f45b7a6.jpg




Vegas Transplant said:
Anyhoo, sending a pm link to Caswell Plating guide for aluminum polishing. Great info for beginners. I think (?) it's agaist forum rules to post link.
Click to expand...

I have spent a lot of time reading on their site in the past. I recieved a PM from you, thanks.

Vegas Transplant said:
Also, take a look at the tool used in this video. As far as the products offerred in this link, I have no positive opinion...especially after seeing the rouge results alone - seems to be wasted steps...
Click to expand...

I think I saw that video awhile back. Didn't look hard enough at the one he usese at first though.

Do you think the 10" pad would be a much better future investment when stepping up to one of these sander/polishers?? Or do you think it may become too bulky? The products I have are similar to what is in his video. I would already have a lot of the 8" at my side,.

Vegas Transplant said:
Also, I see wheels, greaseless, and tools mentioned, but nothing concerning, mineral spirits, wheel rake, and end sealant - such as beeeswax mixture or Colly 845. It would be a shame to go through such a huge undertaking without sealing up the end product.
Click to expand...

I have a wheel rake a plenty of other household/shop products. I do not have a final protectant picked out yet and I am open to many suggestions.

Vegas Transplant said:
As always, looking forward to seeing your progress, and the continuation of this thread. Hope that you, and also Mr. Green, had a wonderful holiday weekend! Mine was the best in several years.
Click to expand...

Thanks you as well. Hope it was good.

Not sure what MR. Green you are referring to, but
 
Didn't get this pic in there for some reason, of the tankers. Not looking to do them frofessionally just as a hobby.

T600Tanker_zpsd1b72b48.jpg
 
Durallymax said:
Didn't get this pic in there for some reason, of the tankers. Not looking to do them frofessionally just as a hobby.

T600Tanker_zpsd1b72b48.jpg
Click to expand...

Good Luck!!!! I think I threw out my back just from looking at the pics. :laughing:
 
If you find a way to mount a wheel on a Stihl TS 420 STIHL Cutquik this would enable you to do the bulk of the tanker.

Craig
 
psnt1ol said:
Good Luck!!!! I think I threw out my back just from looking at the pics. :laughing:
Click to expand...

Haha thanks. Im going to test it out on the "belly" to see if it turns into just being impractical. Neither of them are in terrible shape, but it wouldn't hurt them to be cleaned up some more. They generally get washed weekly when at the plant. The old plant we used to go to was nice, large all indoors they supply hot water for washing and wash buckets, you can use their soap or bring your own, they supplied brushes if you wanted. Trucks and tank always got a rinse job and usually washed once or twice per week, more in the winter. New plant is same company but truck and trailer do not fit all the way inside so they only get washed on sunny days in the winter. Takes 1-1.5hrs at the plant so it kills the time.

If I feel it is worth it, I'll just take it one ring at a time probably, I think if I tried doing one nonstop id be dead.

cgreen1120 said:
If you find a way to mount a wheel on a Stihl TS 420 STIHL Cutquik this would enable you to do the bulk of the tanker.

Craig
Click to expand...

We do have a 420 gas axe. I wouldn't want to hold and control that thing to polish the entire tank though, it does work great for its intended uses though.
 
Durallymax said:
If the Flex is not up to the task that is fine. I bought it to use as a rotary buffer 1st and metal polisher 2nd. After using it for awhile today on paint, I don't feel it was a bad purchase and I would not want to trade it off on a "one tool does all". This machine is light and powerful for the task at hand.

The PE 14 is a great tool. Just never had a place for it in my arsenal.
The Busch guide:
Stainless Steel

Stainless Steel is a hard ferrous metal that requires faster sf/min and more buffing heat than aluminum. The recommendation is 8000 sf/min. ​
For example, a 10” airway pad with 3600 arbor speed:
1/4*10*3600=9000 sf/min. This is a little high per the recommendation, but will still work well.
An 8” pad with 3600 arbor speed:
¼*8*3600=7200 sf/min. This is a bit low per the recommendation, but will also work well.
Click to expand...

PE @ 2100 rpm will produce shiny results though :)

I would hope it is designed to withstand heavy work loads. Afterall that is what a "quality" tool does right?

I do not run any of my tools into the ground, if it does not work for the job I will find the better tool.

I've always polished comm. veh.'s for profit or while waiting for a back haul/layover. Getting to the end of the job was always on the forefront. Tool consideration didn't come into play since I always have back-up. I wasted plenty $$$ on tools before landing on what those that feed their families (or their habits :cool:) were using to spin wheels.

The weight is a lower consideration, but when many OEMs are similar power wise, weight comes into play a lot. I love the material our 9" grinder can remove, but start using it out of position and you learn how terrible it is.



I like the 849's specs. I don't plan to do huge tankers often. It would be milk tankers not the manure tanker lol. I will take a picture the day I go nuts enough to polish that tank though.

Looking forward!

The milk tankers are all stainless barrels. They are not in bad shape, but I wouldn't mind spending some time with enough of them cleaning everything up. Fenders and Wheels as well as ladder and catwalk are all aluminum.

Will be interesting to see whether the white or the green rouge fits the bill.


The other large project would be maintaining the finish on the new belt trailer we ordered. It is all aluminum. The picture below is the same thing, just a 46' long model. ours is a 42' to facilitate going in and out of fields.

Niiiiiicccee...
Keep in mind that the Airways will actually cool the product in cold weather months more readily than other wheels, thus hindering product performance.




I have spent a lot of time reading on their site in the past. I recieved a PM from you, thanks.



I think I saw that video awhile back. Didn't look hard enough at the one he usese at first though.

Definitely a dog walker, but pricey ~ $800 IIRC. But will pay for itself in performance and end product.

Do you think the 10" pad would be a much better future investment when stepping up to one of these sander/polishers?? Or do you think it may become too bulky? The products I have are similar to what is in his video. I would already have a lot of the 8" at my side,.

Just like paint polishing, multiple sized pads are mandatory for efficiency.



I have a wheel rake a plenty of other household/shop products. I do not have a final protectant picked out yet and I am open to many suggestions.

I am now a fan of Colly 845, but both Busch and Caswell have a specific product.



Thanks you as well. Hope it was good.

Not sure what MR. Green you are referring to, but

cgreen1120 AKA Craig, the Commonwealth hand.
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention that the shaft extension is necessary, available at both supplied links.
 
I do have a shaft extension. Got the start of my stuff today, finally got some time to go use it a little bit now.

In your opinion would the 849 be enough of a machine and step up or is there another one you would reccommend for running the 10" wheels and such.

Not that I want to spend $800 but is Dog walker the brand or slang?

Sorry for the confusion on the MR. Green. I didn't see it was another users name , thought you may have been thinking I wanted to polish our green manure tanker I talked about in my other thread.


Thanks again.
 
Any other tips/tricks or products I should know about Vegas? New to machine polishing for the most part, always was by hand before or with cheap buffs on a drill that I could find locally. Not a ton of resources out there for info or supplies. I found the two you mentioned, matchless metal, english polish, and zephyr.

Thanks.
 
Durallymax said:
I do have a shaft extension. Got the start of my stuff today, finally got some time to go use it a little bit now.

In your opinion would the 849 be enough of a machine and step up or is there another one you would reccommend for running the 10" wheels and such.
For what you're doing, Yes. The 849 is the workhorse of parking lot,truckstop/wash, abandoned gas station polishing hands.

Not that I want to spend $800 but is Dog walker the brand or slang?

Slang, but colloquialism sounds better...lol.

BobbyG. , IMO, is the resident forum tool guru for tool advice.

Sorry for the confusion on the MR. Green. I didn't see it was another users name , thought you may have been thinking I wanted to polish our green manure tanker I talked about in my other thread.


Thanks again.
Click to expand...



Durallymax said:
Any other tips/tricks or products I should know about Vegas? New to machine polishing for the most part, always was by hand before or with cheap buffs on a drill that I could find locally. Not a ton of resources out there for info or supplies. I found the two you mentioned, matchless metal, english polish, and zephyr.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

* Vision. hearing, and respiratory personal safety protection.

* YouTube videos are invaluable.

*Metal polishing forum mebership to peruse threads. That group will most likely not answer noob questions than can be answered by reading the buffing guides, or perusing threads.

* Rake your wheel after unpackaging. Before loading rouge.

* Mineral spirits for residue. B&B Tennessee has success with spray window cleaner.
* Flour, corn starch, or talcum powder will also help in removing residue.

*Get Al. polishing under your belt before attempting the SS. One can learn methodology and technique on the softer Al.

* Stay away from sanding until you get polishing down.

*Sanding SS, then attempting correction usingthe 849 will be most tedious.

1. Load your wheel so that the rouge will not come flyingback at you (see quotes below).
2. Grip your rouge tightly.

B&B Tennessee said:
Going Rouge? - Not sure what that means?!?!?!

Flour trick - not this time...... cleaned up the black residue with IPA and foaming glass cleaner - the same I always used on aircraft leading edges.
Click to expand...

Vegas Transplant said:
Just wondering. Everybody has a particular method.
Excellent results as usual.:props:

Rouge is the brick that almost broke your shin...as you stated several months ago.
View attachment 12744


I use corn starch instead of flour and have used diesel in the past. Will have to try your method just for kicks. Thanks.
Enjoy your weekend.
Click to expand...

B&B Tennessee said:
LOL - crazy you remember that! Yep, my ankle still hurts if the kids put pressure on it . Thanx for the compliment:dblthumb2:
Click to expand...


tuscarora dave said:
Use your never dull until it has the black residue on the aluminum, then put some flour (Baking flour) in a bucket and coat a MF towel with flour in the bucket. Once the towel is covered in flour, lightly shake the excess flour off of the towel and then rub off the black residue with the flour coated towel.

If you try this you'll be amazed at how quickly and easily it takes the black residue off of the brushed aluminum.
Click to expand...

tuscarora dave said:
See the bucket under the sink in this photo? A bucket of flour for aluminum polishing residue removal. Once you try it, you'll always have a bucket of flour handy when polishing aluminum.

011-2.jpg
Click to expand...
 
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Vegas Transplant said:
* Vision. hearing, and respiratory personal safety protection.

* YouTube videos are invaluable.

*Get Al. polishing under your belt before attempting the SS. One can learn methodology and technique on the softer Al.

* Stay away from sanding until you get polishing down.

*Sanding SS, then attempting correction usingthe 849 will be most tedious.
Click to expand...

I watched a lot of them in the past and still watch more every now and then. Everyone has their own little tricks that are nice to learn.

It seemed PPE was always empathized even with the most backwoods polisher. I have a full face mask with respirator, wear a welding beanie and ear plugs as well as gloves and long sleeve shirt. Some seem to exxaggerate how bad the stuff is for you, but the general consensus seems to agree that protection needs to be in place.

I did some sanding on a tank awhile back but it was tedious and time consuming.

After playing with the flex running the stuff last night, I think i'm ready for some faster cutting. Seemed very slow.

Which forum(s) do you recommend?

Thanks again.
 
Durallymax said:
Which forum(s) do you recommend?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Both of the links provided have forums. Busch's is relatively inactive...but you can call them up for advice. Knowledged people from the Tarheel State.

None that I'm familiar with are expedient.

CW for the plethera of threads available and knowledge therein.

Heck, there's a lot of polishers here on AGO. I read and old thread (09) and was suprised at those who offer services polishing out at truckstops. If you get in a bind, posting detailed photos of the issue will get replied to quicker. Even on the CW forum, top notch refinishers offer varied processes. But the finished products speak for the poster.

OAN: Suit up and dive right in. No question is too simple and if no one here has an answer, I'll be glad to pm you a link from CW pertaining to the issue. Or send you my cell no. and walk you through it. I'm certain that tuscarora dave would do the same if he's not slammed. His number is on his site. Forum member Kevin Cullen has a site also and posts both here and CW.

Post pics of your progress.
 
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I had somewhat wondered about using those as well but never saw anybody use one. Maybe to agressive for aluminum? We have to use one on all of our milk lines in the parlor. Every weld has to be burnished down.
 
Cool link Craig :props:

Here's a video that shows you the progression . Zephyr - How to Polish Aluminum - YouTube

Notice the dry sanding.

The wheel was formerly used in a dual set-up as noted by both the gouging of the face and the amount of scale build-up. While these guy's are probably just showing the steps, the finished product is full of scratches (as seen at both the 3:00. mark and at 6:00) The initial sanding step wasn't deep enough.




Also notice the variety of wheels used especially the one used around 4:40. By just using the airway wheel, you can achieve max. bling, but will still have shiny scratches. That's the reason I stated to master the polishing before moving on to the sanding.
Also Mothers is the go to for LSP(olishing) before sealing for many in the industry. Their Q.C. is exemplary.

Any before and afters using the PE 14 and new products? Thoughts?
Durallymax said:
After playing with the flex running the stuff last night, I think i'm ready for some faster cutting. Seemed very slow.
Click to expand...

Which bars were you using?
 
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Don't have much to report yet. I was just testing everything on a piece of 1/4" sheet we had here. It seemed to be extremely delicate compared to wheels and such, the tiniest thing would scratch it.

It had the mill finish on it, I used Zephyr bars, emery, tripoli, green chrome and max red. Seemed to take a long time at the slow speed for it to really get much done, but thats just comparing to videos. Seems enough of them I have watched are guys running them on 6,000rpm grinders though.

The Flex seemed happier with paint, it handled everything fine but was just slow. I picked up a Dewalt DWP849X today, was going to test it out polishing the valve cover for my TDI since I'm doing a turbo job on it anyways, but ran out of time.

It will be nice to have both tools available for various projects but my guess is the DeWalt will stay black and the Flex will stick to paint. I just restored it back to its red color tonight.

I should have some time this weekend to really get into it, got a few crappy rims laying around I need to get cleaned up.

Thanks again.
 
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