Car Makers Tightening Up On Paint Thickness

Dr Buff

Dr Buff

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Hi there Fellas

I don't know if it's just me, but I have noticed paint thicknesses here in Australian production and even import Jap cars, have declined dramatically.

Every vehicle that I have checked from years of 1990-2000 appears on most vehicles to have been between 170-220 microns. From 2000-2005 again it appears to have dropped from on average from 180-140 microns. 2005-2011 it appears paint thicknesses have again reduced from 130 down to as low as 90 microns.

Has anyone else noticed this happening in their own home town ?
If wet sanding is required on some of these cars, has anyone got feedback on what events they have experienced with paints this thin.

I have personally tested paints this thin and have found some paints to lose their clear coat thickness after consistant cutting at about 50 microns from a thickness which was about 90-100 microns OEM to begin with.

Could some fellow detailers possibly elaborate on your own experiences on paints this thin, and whether or not you carried out any wet sanding on paint thicknesses this thin to begin with

Cheers To All Feed back please :xyxthumbs:
Pete
 
Dr Buff said:
Hi there Fellas

I don't know if it's just me, but I have noticed paint thicknesses here in Australian production and even import Jap cars, have declined dramatically.

Every vehicle that I have checked from years of 1990-2000 appears on most vehicles to have been between 170-220 microns. From 2000-2005 again it appears to have dropped from on average from 180-140 microns. 2005-2011 it appears paint thicknesses have again reduced from 130 down to as low as 90 microns.

Has anyone else noticed this happening in their own home town ?
If wet sanding is required on some of these cars, has anyone got feedback on what events they have experienced with paints this thin.

I have personally tested paints this thin and have found some paints to lose their clear coat thickness after consistant cutting at about 50 microns from a thickness which was about 90-100 microns OEM to begin with.

Could some fellow detailers possibly elaborate on your own experiences on paints this thin, and whether or not you carried out any wet sanding on paint thicknesses this thin to begin with

Cheers To All Feed back please :xyxthumbs:
Pete
Click to expand...
At 90 mics I wouldn't wet sand. I would be reluctant to even use a heavy compound. Stay away from sanding these cars and save yourself some grief.
 
very common.

bean counters monitoring paint down to the drop. there is a general consensus that these accounting types have urged the engineers to cut corners in any way possible, as long as it doesn't necessarily shorten the drivetrain life and/or cause safety issues. otherwise wear is not an issue. if it lasts the basic warranty span, it did its job. pitiful, but true.

the painting machines are extremely precise at this stage, and they can get away with the bare minimum for a nice aesthetic but minimal durability.

for example...anecdotal, i know, but still...

two of my first cars were a 1990 honda civic si and a 1998 honda civic cx. build country and paint system aside, the paint application was more than ample for both, and very similar in durability.

later, purchased a 2004 Si. less application thickness and moderate durability. not bad.

next car, a 2007 Si sedan, proved to have relatively thin (yet soft) clear, and overall weak durability. poor.

2008 Mazdaspeed3 - EXTREMELY thin and moderately hard. weak durability.

2011 Toyota Tacoma - EXTREMELY thin, but it seems to have slightly more clear than the Mazda. harder than Honda, softer than Mazda.

main point i guess is that sanding (and compounding) should be reserved for the most severe jobs - severe peel and/or major defects. the old detailing addage to start with the least aggressive combination rings truer than ever at this stage!
 
Rsurfer said:
At 90 mics I wouldn't wet sand. I would be reluctant to even use a heavy compound. Stay away from sanding these cars and save yourself some grief.
Click to expand...

I was kinda thinking of the same thing.
It really is a major risk having to put severe compounds
to paint this thin let alone using paper.

Cheers
Pete :xyxthumbs:
 
builthatch said:
very common.

bean counters monitoring paint down to the drop. there is a general consensus that these accounting types have urged the engineers to cut corners in any way possible, as long as it doesn't necessarily shorten the drivetrain life and/or cause safety issues. otherwise wear is not an issue. if it lasts the basic warranty span, it did its job. pitiful, but true.

the painting machines are extremely precise at this stage, and they can get away with the bare minimum for a nice aesthetic but minimal durability.

for example...anecdotal, i know, but still...

two of my first cars were a 1990 honda civic si and a 1998 honda civic cx. build country and paint system aside, the paint application was more than ample for both, and very similar in durability.

later, purchased a 2004 Si. less application thickness and moderate durability. not bad.

next car, a 2007 Si sedan, proved to have relatively thin (yet soft) clear, and overall weak durability. poor.

2008 Mazdaspeed3 - EXTREMELY thin and moderately hard. weak durability.

2011 Toyota Tacoma - EXTREMELY thin, but it seems to have slightly more clear than the Mazda. harder than Honda, softer than Mazda.

main point i guess is that sanding (and compounding) should be reserved for the most severe jobs - severe peel and/or major defects. the old detailing addage to start with the least aggressive combination rings truer than ever at this stage!
Click to expand...

Mate, I couldn't agree with you more about the less is best rule, but would you actually still wet sand, even on severe peel even though paints are that thin ?

Cheers mate :dunno:
Pete
 
I heard theyre applying the paint differntly as well. theyre pretty much powdercoating the vehicles. they negativly charge the vehicle and positivly charge the paint so there is no overspray whatsoever. i'm assuming that also has something to do with the thinness of the paint.
 
purgeofdarkness said:
I heard theyre applying the paint differntly as well. theyre pretty much powdercoating the vehicles. they negativly charge the vehicle and positivly charge the paint so there is no overspray whatsoever. i'm assuming that also has something to do with the thinness of the paint.
Click to expand...

Well there's that (electrostatic coating application) but there's also the fact that what they're applying is water-based or waterborne paint. I believe it simply sprays out thinner than solvent-based paints like most of us are used to working with.
 
yup ,same here in USA. My 2010 toyota roof has micron reading as low as 88. Its really concerning me .
 
Isn't that ridiculous ??

How the hell are you supposed to carry out any serious paint correction on seriously swirled or scratched paint and still feel comfortable about not penetrating any clear coat.

I have to agree as well that they are using a different method of spraying vehicles
It's not the first time I've heard of this charging process of spray painting.
If this is the case, you can certainly see why there is so little paint on cars.

I've actually had to inform a couple of customers about the risks of carrying out
serious levels of paint correction on their thin paint, and they still said go ahead
even though they agreed to taking responsibility if anything went wrong.

My only concern is, this is starting to become more and more evident, which may reduce strong levels of paint correction down the track.

At least I now know this is happening everywhere, and not just here.
Have any of you guys carried out any wet sanding or spot sanding on cars with such levels of thin paint in order to correct ?

I have to say, I think an average rule of thumb is, probably don't use any strong compounds under 80 mic. Under testing, I kept buffing on a particular panel and finally broke through at about 50 microns. This is on a panel starting with around 100-120 mic.

I would be interested to see if any other Gents around here could carry out some of your own tests and see what you come up with.

If you do, please let me know your findings. This will help us all out.

Cheers Boys :hungry: Feed back please
Pete.
 
purgeofdarkness said:
I heard theyre applying the paint differntly as well. theyre pretty much powdercoating the vehicles. they negativly charge the vehicle and positivly charge the paint so there is no overspray whatsoever. i'm assuming that also has something to do with the thinness of the paint.
Click to expand...

Shiny Lil Detlr said:
Well there's that (electrostatic coating application) but there's also the fact that what they're applying is water-based or waterborne paint. I believe it simply sprays out thinner than solvent-based paints like most of us are used to working with.
Click to expand...

Well...you guys are talking about a few different things here that pre-date waterborne paints. Going back 20 years or more electrostatic painting was used to get the operators out of the spray booth (not the best job in the plant) and to reduce solvent (VOC) emissions (by using less paint). I would argue that it's harder to get the paint to flowout thinner with a high-solids or waterborne paint than it is with solvent, however.
 
Dr Buff said:
Mate, I couldn't agree with you more about the less is best rule, but would you actually still wet sand, even on severe peel even though paints are that thin ?

Cheers mate :dunno:
Pete
Click to expand...

nah, i wouldn't. if the depth gauge says something crazy, i'd def not try it. yes peel means there are high spots that can be sanded down to the low spots for uniformity, but when uniform what would the thickness be at that stage? definitely not worth the risk, even on my personal vehicle.
 
My 2006 S2000 is around 60 microns in some areas - scary thin. I don't even like using any waxes with cleaners in them because I get some paint transfer from the thin tinted clear coat onto my pad. John's 2010 Mazdaspeed3 is around 75-80 microns in some areas...at least his paint is somewhat hard, though.
 

I have in the past, gotten red clear/tint transfer, but I'm not worried about it :xyxthumbs:



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** Stupid Question Alert **

If the clear is really thin on a new car, can you take it down to your favorite auto painter and have them slap on some more clear coat?

Be kind.
 
TornadoRed said:
If the clear is really thin on a new car, can you take it down to your favorite auto painter and have them slap on some more clear coat?
Click to expand...

Boy that sounds like a nightmare. Better to take it to somebody like Integrity Detail and get an application of Opti-Coat.
 

TornadoRed said:
** Stupid Question Alert **

If the clear is really thin on a new car, can you take it down to your favorite auto painter and have them slap on some more clear coat?

Be kind.
Click to expand...


Unless there is an inherent factory defect, I wouldn't even trip. There is no need for an auto body shop, or spraying or anything.



 
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