Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips

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Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips


The majority of cars being manufactured today and starting since the 1980's use what's called a basecoat/clearcoat paint system. With this system, a clear layer of paint is sprayed over the top of the basecoat which is also the color coat or the layer of paint that has pigment in it. If the car has a metallic finish then the metallic flakes are also in the basecoat.

The basecoat doesn't offer any gloss or shine and in fact it's dull or matte looking after it's sprayed. The basecoat gets it's gloss, shine, depth and reflectivity by the spraying of the clearcoat layer of paint over the top of it. This is why if a person removes too much clearcoat when buffing and they expose the basecoat it will appear to be a dull round or oval spot on a body panel. The part of the paint system that adds beauty has been removed revealing the dull or matte basecoat layer of paint.



Just how thin is the clear layer of paint on a factory paint job?

The factory clearcoat on a new or modern car measures approximately 2 mils thin.



The average Post-it Note is around 3 mils thin.

watermark.php




What does this mean?

This means the factory clearcoat on a new or modern car is thinner than a post-it note. The next time you have a post-it note in front of you, feel a single post-it note between your fingers. Like this...

watermark.php




This experience will drive home the point as to just how thin the clear layer of paint is on modern car with a factory paint job.

It should also drive home the importance of using the least aggressive pad, product and even tools to get the job done.

When I say, get the job done, the context of this usually means someone is buffing out a car to remove paint defects like swirls, scratches, water spots and oxidation to make the paint and thus the car look better.

By using the least aggressive products you "get the job done" while leaving the most paint on the car to it will last over the mechanical service life of the car.

If you're working on your own cars and you're reading this you're already ahead of the game by reading the AGO forum and probably being a member so you can ask questions and get help.

If you're working on customer's cars take a professional approach as a service to your customers.


If you're reading this and you're going to do the work yourself or hire a detailer then do some research and make sure you hire a detailer that knows this type of stuff because the factory clearcoat on your car is thin.


:)
 
Re: Paint is thin

When the clear layer of paint become too (from improper detailing) or if it's not properly and regularly washed and waxed one result can be clearcoat failure.

Clearcoat failure is where the paint flakes and peels off. Your car will look like it has a rash. Like this,

ClearcoatFailureonFord.jpg




My friend Paul owns a body shop. He only does professional quality repaints. I asked him if someone brought him a car, for example an average sized passenger car and it needed ZERO body work. It only needs new paint. How much on average would he charge?


He said about $3000.00


Now this is for a high quality paint job to a mundane passenger car that needs no body work. Of course you can get a less costly paint job but instead,

Learn to take proper care of your car's paint while its still in great shape.

Only hire qualified detailers to do the work for you but - do hire them and have your car washed and waxed on a regular schedule.

You can learn how to properly wash and wax your car here on AutogeekOnline.net, simply join the forum so you can post questions and get help.


Click here to join the AGO forum


Or if you're looking for a qualified detailer to work on your car, boat, motorhome, motorcycle, etc. then join the forum so you can create a thread that looks like this,


Pro Detailer wanted in Stuart, Florida

Then in the message of the thread state what you have that needs detailed and what you're looking for. We have a huge membership with lots of qualified detailers that can help you get the job done right.



:)
 
Re: Paint is thin

I have read varying information regarding where the UV protection actually resides within the CC itself

Some state that it is contained in the top 20% of the CC

Others claim that this does not make sense because the UV protectants themselves have a higher specific gravity and would sink to the bottom of the layer

To complicate things the information on the Ceramiclear fumed silica CC is that the UV protectants rise to the surface


Is all the inside info proprietary to the paint manufacturers and therefore we will never know?
 
Re: Paint is thin

I have read varying information regarding where the UV protection actually resides within the CC itself

Big picture?

At 2 mils thin I treat it all like it's precious because it is...


David Ghodoussi told me that the UV protection used in car paint has a half life of 5 years. This means if you bought your car in 2010 - by the year 2015 half of the UV protection originally used to make the clear layer of paint is now non-functioning.


To me, this is why you should always use the least aggressive product and process to get the job done because by doing this YOU LEAVE THE MOST PAINT ON THE CAR


It's that last part of what I wrote above that everyone leaves out or forgets to say.



:)
 
***Bump***


When it comes to sanding on factory clearcoat paints,

Remember...

1. Sanding removes paint.
2. Compounding removes paint.
3. Polishing removes a little paint.


You only have a limited amount of paint on the car and even the best in this industry, sooner or later will sand or buff through a factory clearcoat finish.


Here's an article I wrote in 2009 that really clarifies why you DON'T want to wet sand or dry sand factory clearcoats.


Wetsanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint


Hand sanding the Titanic circa 2000

TitanicSanding004.jpg



:)
 
Thanks for this information! It really does help understanding why you should not go to far compounding the clear coat!


Sent from my iPhone using AGOnline
 
Thanks for this information! It really does help understanding why you should not go to far compounding the clear coat!


Your welcome.


And thank you for commenting on this thread.

Considering I wrote this article in 2014 and thousands of people have read it I'm always surprised no one ever makes a comment.

It is probably what I consider one of the Top 10 Articles I've ever written simply because the pictures enable the average person to wrap their mind around just how thin the paint is on their new car.


I also use this article to inform and even WARN people that are "thinking" about WET SANDING the factory finish on their car. For most people... this is not going to turn out well.



:)
 
This is a New Mazda 3, not touched by the dealership.

They are getting very thin nowadays!

ptgshineshop.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This is a New Mazda 3, not touched by the dealership.

They are getting very thin nowadays!


Crazy huh?


And if Dr. David Ghodoussi is correct, that is - if the long term testing the paint companies have conducted have shown that in order for the entire paint job to hold up over time the clear layer needs to be at least 2 mils in thickness, (actually thinness is a more accurate word), then the car manufacturers have gotten the science of the ecoat, primer and color coat down to less than 1 mil according to your readings.


Now think about the above every time you see someone on Facebook wetsanding a factory finish.


:dunno:
 
I went out today and looked at a 2019 Mustang GT Prem with the FP pack 1. I took measurements and saw 4.0 - 4.7 mils. Very thin!!! I also brought my Scangrip Colormatch light and saw a nasty buckle rash in the passenger rear quarter panel. I said, "thanks but no thanks..."

Today's lesson: paint is thin... and it's getting thinner. Secondly, detach yourself from the car your buying and think of it as a business decision. This car with 104 miles on it had more paint blems than my 2016 Mustang EB which is PRISTINE!!!

I treated this vehicle as if I was doing a VIF. I had my clipboard, VIF Form, my Scangrip light and Delfesco PTG. I didn't care if they thought I was crazy.

There was a scratch on the rear qtr panel, I would have fist tried removing by hand with an applicator and some 105. If that didn't work I'd have to try some 3000.. all on a new $46k car. The salesman saw my light and paint meter and said, wow that's what we take to auctions... he said, you must be in the business. They didn't think I was nuts, instead they realized they were dealing with a very informed person. Third lesson, don't be afraid of what people think of you. If you're OCD, they'll have to deal with it! :) It's your money. I graciously passed... and am ready to look at another. And I'm patient... I can wait for the perfect one.

Again, paint is thin.. do your homework... A $699 Delfesko PTG and scangrip light are the best tools to have in a tool box. Because when you decide to chase a scratch, it's bad news when you burn the clear... No undo's there.
 
Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips


The majority of cars being manufactured today and starting since the 1980's use what's called a basecoat/clearcoat paint system. With this system, a clear layer of paint is sprayed over the top of the basecoat which is also the color coat or the layer of paint that has pigment in it. If the car has a metallic finish then the metallic flakes are also in the basecoat.

The basecoat doesn't offer any gloss or shine and in fact it's dull or matte looking after it's sprayed. The basecoat gets it's gloss, shine, depth and reflectivity by the spraying of the clearcoat layer of paint over the top of it. This is why if a person removes too much clearcoat when buffing and they expose the basecoat it will appear to be a dull round or oval spot on a body panel. The part of the paint system that adds beauty has been removed revealing the dull or matte basecoat layer of paint.


:)
Hi Mike,
I wish I read this sooner than later!
I posted a thread on the form Ask Mike, about my clear coat I sprayed on my truck after painting the base coat. The Clear Coat did not apply clear, but had a matted look...is that because it was sprayed from a spray can? I purchased the CC and BC from Automotivetouchup.

And yes, the factory CC is very thin, I had a spot where I used 2,000 grit and accidentally went down to the primer!
 
The Clear Coat did not apply clear, but had a matted look...

is that because it was sprayed from a spray can?


Hard for me to say?


Maybe go back and talk to the people at the company that sold you the paint. In fact, drive your truck and show them.


I know some people have successfully sprayed basecoat/clearcoat paints from spray cans obtained from PBE stores and had good luck. There's a lot of factors that go into getting a great paint job from a spray can or any method.


:)
 
I am an amateur .....Ive been chasing scratches on my 2012 Corvette with Trizact 5000 Discs using the soft interface
on my Porter Cable 7424XP.....

Previously I had been using a 3" Lake Country MF Pad and Meg's 100
 
I am an amateur .....Ive been chasing scratches on my 2012 Corvette with Trizact 5000 Discs using the soft interface
on my Porter Cable 7424XP.....

When it comes to sanding, 3M Trizact #5000 is about as NON aggressive as you can get.

Can't count how many Corvette owners I've met that ask me how to remove the orange peel out of the paint on their Corvette. Most don't have the skill or patience to wetsand their car. Most also don't own the right tools to do the sanding and then have the right tools, pads and products to remove the sanding marks.

IF a person is serious about removing or better, reducing the level of orange peel out of a FACTORY finish, then using a technique I call Scuff & Buff is the safe approach.


Previously I had been using a 3" Lake Country MF Pad and Meg's 100

Yeah.... just buffing can remove orange peel but it's the least effective way to do it. I have a picture showing that I've done it from around 1990 back in Albany, Oregon.


This is 1958 Chevrolet Bel Air that I compounded heavily from the center chrome trim up including the hood, roof and deck-lid. The owner didn't want to spend any more than $300.00 so wet-sanding was out off the table.

The pictures don't show the results as well as looking at the results in person but you could definitely see there was less orange peel on all the paint above the long stainless steel trim running down the car and the paint below the trim.

orangepeellessened01.jpg




Close-up, cropped out section...
orangepeellessened02.jpg




For removing orange peel by machine you MUST use sanding discs without foam backing or very little foam backing. Anytime you introduce "cushion" you enable the abrasives to sand into the valleys. You don't want this. What you want is to only sand off the hilltops.


Try 3M Trizact on a backing plate without the interface.


:)
 
Tons of great and accurate information here. 3 years ago I passed a paint manufacturers certification test with 2.2 mils on my panel. That was with a good quality clear. The cheap $50 a gallon clears that a lot of body shops who do work for used car lots won’t even get that much build.
 
Tons of great and accurate information here.

3 years ago I passed a paint manufacturers certification test with 2.2 mils on my panel.

That was with a good quality clear.

The cheap $50 a gallon clears that a lot of body shops who do work for used car lots won’t even get that much build.


Wow!

That's interesting.

Thank you for sharing.


:bow:
 
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