Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

[johnnyO]

Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

I'm trying to preserve as much of the original paint on my '53 MG TD as possible. In the 33 years I've owned and driven the car, the red has given way to various shades of grey and orange primer and even bare metal on the tops of the cutaway doors that serve as armrests. There is no rust, just lots of character. I recently discovered this Forum and and hope that Mike and others will chime in.

For the past 15 years, I've applied heavy coats of Griot's Paint Sealant (now discontinued) about twice a year in a manner similar to what I've just learned is recommended using Mirror Glaze #7. Most areas of the car just soak it up, and then I blend and lightly buff the last coat to create a somewhat uniform look on the various panels... each of which has its own particular sheen and color. The pigment on the top 2 hood panels seems to be held in place by gravity and will come loose and streak with even the most gentle wiping. Reluctantly, I plan to have these panels repainted to match the patina and color of the others (in their treated depth of color).

I'm experimenting now with the #7 on the slab fuel tank before treating the expansive fender areas and have the following questions:

• After the initial soaking, I find that on additional layers my applicator towel still gets soaked with a pink slurry that gets spread around. After drying about a half hour, there are swirls and lines where the residue has built up. (Not sure if this will show in photos below) This buildup will not buff out by hand. Adding a bit of glaze to the surface will loosen it and allow me to feather it out. But there is still some "loose" pigment on the surface. So now I'm using a clean application and buffing towel for each coat. Once the buffing towel has minimal red on it, I assume it will be time for wax.

• In the past, I've not been top coating the sealant with wax because when I tried years ago, even more paint came off on my towel and it left a blotchy finish that I had to feather out with more product. So, is the goal with multiple applications of #7 to nourish and seal the paint with so many thin layers that the pigment gets "locked" in place? And that a final application of wax will further protect the base layers?

• WAX. Will a paste wax provide a better layer of protection than liquid? I don't want a wet-look high gloss, but rather a mellow sheen. Recommendations? The car is driven regularly in all types of weather, so durability is a must.

• FOLLOW UP. Will the paint be able to hold the sealed darker appearance with several waxings per year and not have to feed the paint with sealer again? Or if there is a hint of fading, do I retreat with #7 and rewax throughout the driving season?

• I've used Griot's Poly Wax on clearcoat. Are modern finishes like this compatible/recommended with the #7 Glaze?

• Will Speed Shine or other detailer have a negative effect on my treatment? Or put another way, what will cause deterioration of the wax and sealant layers?? Rain, sun, wind friction from high-speed driving, harsh wash soap, ???

Ahh, the challenges of single stage red paint!



Here's a pic from 11 years ago to show the lost of pigment, also showing sealer applied to one side.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Wow!

What a cool project!


Hang tight and I'll reply... (just found this thread, been working on a new article)

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

• In the past, I've not been top coating the sealant with wax because when I tried years ago, even more paint came off on my towel and it left a blotchy finish that I had to feather out with more product. So, is the goal with multiple applications of #7 to nourish and seal the paint with so many thin layers that the pigment gets "locked" in place? And that a final application of wax will further protect the base layers?

• WAX. Will a paste wax provide a better layer of protection than liquid? I don't want a wet-look high gloss, but rather a mellow sheen. Recommendations? The car is driven regularly in all types of weather, so durability is a must.

• FOLLOW UP. Will the paint be able to hold the sealed darker appearance with several waxings per year and not have to feed the paint with sealer again? Or if there is a hint of fading, do I retreat with #7 and rewax throughout the driving season?

• I've used Griot's Poly Wax on clearcoat. Are modern finishes like this compatible/recommended with the #7 Glaze?

• Will Speed Shine or other detailer have a negative effect on my treatment? Or put another way, what will cause deterioration of the wax and sealant layers?? Rain, sun, wind friction from high-speed driving, harsh wash soap, ???

Ahh, the challenges of single stage red paint!

Great questions, I simply don't have time right now to type out my thoughts.

We're shooting a LIVE video at 3:00pm Eastern Time about working on single stage paint today and besides prepping for that I'm in the middle of processing pictures for a project that's due.


I'll get to this tomorrow. :cheers:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Also...

To make it easier for everyone to see the pictures I uploaded them to your free gallery here,

johnnyO Gallery - AutogeekOnline Gallery


By doing this I could insert the full size version.


:cheers:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

More....


Thanks for joining us for the LIVE detailing class on working on single stage paint.

For everyone that will read this thread into the future, here's the video

:buffing:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Controlling pigment removal using Mirror Glaze #7 - 1953 MG

I'm trying to preserve as much of the original paint on my '53 MG TD as possible. In the 33 years I've owned and driven the car, the red has given way to various shades of grey and orange primer and even bare metal on the tops of the cutaway doors that serve as armrests. There is no rust, just lots of character. I recently discovered this Forum and and hope that Mike and others will chime in.

Cool car and real-world patina!

For the past 15 years, I've applied heavy coats of Griot's Paint Sealant (now discontinued) about twice a year in a manner similar to what I've just learned is recommended using Mirror Glaze #7. Most areas of the car just soak it up, and then I blend and lightly buff the last coat to create a somewhat uniform look on the various panels... each of which has its own particular sheen and color. The pigment on the top 2 hood panels seems to be held in place by gravity and will come loose and streak with even the most gentle wiping. Reluctantly, I plan to have these panels repainted to match the patina and color of the others (in their treated depth of color).

I feel your pain -Bill Clinton

I feel your paint -Mike Phillips

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do even when you don't want to do it.

I'm experimenting now with the #7 on the slab fuel tank before treating the expansive fender areas and have the following questions:

• After the initial soaking, I find that on additional layers my applicator towel still gets soaked with a pink slurry that gets spread around. After drying about a half hour, there are swirls and lines where the residue has built up. (Not sure if this will show in photos below) This buildup will not buff out by hand. Adding a bit of glaze to the surface will loosen it and allow me to feather it out. But there is still some "loose" pigment on the surface. So now I'm using a clean application and buffing towel for each coat. Once the buffing towel has minimal red on it, I assume it will be time for wax.

Here's my best guess based upon experience working on vintage British car paint. I'm sorry to say, all the vintage British car paint I've worked on, including the 6 different British sports cars I've owned, is a tick on the side of poor quality. Kind of like the electrical systems. And the motors. And the transmissions.

But damn - the British really know shape body panels. :wowwow:

• In the past, I've not been top coating the sealant with wax because when I tried years ago, even more paint came off on my towel and it left a blotchy finish that I had to feather out with more product. So, is the goal with multiple applications of #7 to nourish and seal the paint with so many thin layers that the pigment gets "locked" in place? And that a final application of wax will further protect the base layers?

In theory - and with most paints - the answer is "yes". The final application of a non-water soluble sealer of some form will protect the base layers. The issue you're dealing with is the actual paint quality when the paint was new and now 70 years later - the quality hasn't gotten any better.

• WAX. Will a paste wax provide a better layer of protection than liquid? I don't want a wet-look high gloss, but rather a mellow sheen. Recommendations? The car is driven regularly in all types of weather, so durability is a must.

It would seem a paste wax would be less chemically aggressive than a liquid. I think most people, including myself would think that it takes more solvents or "carrying agents" to liquefy and suspend a wax into an emulsion. But I have been told by at least one really really good chemist, that I know and trust, that there are actually more solvents in paste versions of wax.

That said, as I mentioned in the LIVE detailing class video - I'm sending you the brand new can of M16 you saw me open and use in the video and the bottle of Meguiar's M20 Polymer Sealant.

What I used to do way back before the Internet and thus way back before so many different brands and different products had been invented and become available was - after doing the paint correction to a car, I would apply a base layer of the Meguiar's M20 Polymer Sealant. Because it has a very light chemical cleaner this would clean-up any polish smears from the polishing step and leave behind a very slick an water repellent layer of protection. Also very easy to apply and wipe off after you let it fully dry - and it dries fast. Then I would apply a super thin coat of the Meguiar's M16 Professional Paste Wax as a form of "layering". This was before people used the term "layering".


You will have the option to try both product by themselves and also to test them out as I just described and see which process works best for this paint.

• FOLLOW UP. Will the paint be able to hold the sealed darker appearance with several waxings per year and not have to feed the paint with sealer again? Or if there is a hint of fading, do I retreat with #7 and rewax throughout the driving season?

Well this is what we will both hope for. I'm sorry to vindicate what you already know and that is this paint is truly on it's last stages of life. The truth is - just being exposed to the air, sun, moisture in the air or rain, it's going to go downhill.

My instincts tell me, the M20 Polymer Sealant, applied as needed, will do a good job of maintaining the finish and be very non-aggressive.

• I've used Griot's Poly Wax on clearcoat. Are modern finishes like this compatible/recommended with the #7 Glaze?

Griot's makes great products - I wouldn't hesitate to use anything from Richard and his team. :xyxthumbs:

• Will Speed Shine or other detailer have a negative effect on my treatment? Or put another way, what will cause deterioration of the wax and sealant layers?? Rain, sun, wind friction from high-speed driving, harsh wash soap, ???

Reality is - anytime and every time you touch the treated paint, (polished, waxed or sealanted), the microfiber towel surface plus whatever it is you're applying will MICRO-ABRADE the stuff on the paint and the paint. It's a physics thing.

Ahh, the challenges of single stage red paint!

Agree. And even more so when the paint is vintage and sparse.

Here's a pic from 11 years ago to show the lost of pigment, also showing sealer applied to one side.

I'm impressed with your passion to preseve it. Good job. :dblthumb2:


Don't know how much if any the above comments and suggestions have helped but my fingers are crossed the M20, or the M16 or a combination of both will help and possibly even be the recipe to preserve what's left for another 70 years.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

One more....

johnnyO]
[/B]
The pigment on the top 2 hood panels seems to be held in place by gravity and will come loose and streak with even the most gentle wiping.

One of the reasons why the paint that is left is so easily removed is because there's simply so little of it left.

A layer of paint is a matrix of resin, binders, pigments and other miscellaneous ingredients.

What you have is a smattering of the original matrix. There's simply not much there.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hey John,

This is shipped out today... its the things we've talked about in this thread and also in the video.

The M16 is from my personal stash. I taped a penny in the secret slot to make it apparent.

There's also some clean simple foam applicators for both the M16 and the M20 and a couple of my new favorite towels that will work well with any product but especially wiping off dried M16.



Remember - when it comes to M16 - a SUPER THIN LAYER - let it fully dry and then wipe off.

Sometimes it helps to just wax a small area, let the wax dry for about a half hour and the wipe-off. This teaches you to apply a thin coat.


Enjoy!

:cheers:

 

[johnnyO]

Mike,

I received your package today. Thank you very much! But I'm realizing the "secret slot" in the wax can isn't much of a secret anymore if you keep telling everyone. :laughing:

I've been experimenting with Comet on some inconspicuous areas like the underside of the rear bumper valance shown below. The cleanser did a great job removing the dark road grime and I was surprised to find there were different black situations. Evidently decades ago, maybe while redoing the wiring harness I sprayed some black primer to protect areas with inadequate protection. The Comet removed the overspray but there was one area where I rubbed through to bright metal. There was another spot to the right of the cutout where I thought I was cleaning overspray or surface dirt only to find out that it was specs of factory black primer showing through. So instead of making the black disappear, I exposed more. A lesson learned!

Left rear fender

I removed this fender to experiment with cleaning the underside before deciding what procedure to use on the main parts of the car. On the MG, much of the inner wheel arch is visible, so I want to get these areas cleaned up as much as is practical.

Here's how the Comet cleaning is going. The black specs below are from driving on a newly tarred road we encountered on a rally about 20 years ago. The rallymaster was assured by the county engineer there would be no roadwork scheduled during the event. Well, once we encountered their equipment, there was no way out unscathed and all the car owners had to spend hours with tar remover that evening.(obviously I missed some.) I see no reason to pick off the bits now and will continue scrubbing.

MIKE, Is it ok to use mineral spirits for a less abrasive cleaning of the panels? Eventually I will have to do the hood louvers which are oily on the underside. Any other suggestions? I'm also using a Scotch Brite kitchen sponge for the Comet and sometimes the "non-scratch" rough side where there is a lot of buildup.

Feeding the paint

The top left section is where I used M07 ad let it soak in. Today I used the M20 Sealant on the lower right test area and am amazed at the gloss! Next I will try the sealant over the M07.

MIKE, some questions:

I plan to do a gentle cleaning with Comet on the top sides of the rear valance or fuel tank next. If there is already #7 on an area, will the Comet simply remove it and get me down to the original finish? Then I can redo #7 and seal with #20.... plus a thin layer of wax?

In the wheel arches, which have minor oxidation due to lack of exposure, should I do the same process... less the finish wax? Then, knowing that some of the arch area will have sealant over spots with minimal paint, what is the best method of upkeep. Additional applications of the #20? I've also seen people use FluidFilm and wipe the excess in these areas?

You've been a source of sympathy and consolation in regard to my old British paint... and I can see why there is no cookie-cutter solution to preserving it.

Cheers!

John

 

[johnnyO]

I'm now trying out the process on the sunny side of the car. REMARKABLE!!

Comet, then heavy #7. I applied #20 on the top half of the test area... only a minor change in gloss, but I'm not complaining!

View attachment 73026

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

And again, mostly for everyone that will read this into the future...

I've owned 6 classic British cars myself, all of them had the original paint. And in my experience, the paint was a tick on the poor quality side from the factory. Meaning nothing you pour out of a bottle of any brand works great because the "stuff" you're working on wasn't great to start with. And after 70 years go by... it doesn't normally get better. What's the opposite of the word "better"?


Here's your picture,

At least there's some rich color now...


:dblthumb2:

 

[johnnyO]

Mike,

I appreciate your enlightening me about the Comet cleaning and #7 glaze procedures. To clarify, I'm not looking to restore the finish on my car, but rather to preserve its well-driven character and appearance with additional depth of color and sheen. It's a pre-WWII design sports car intended for driving country roads and club competitions, not car shows. Fred Simeone of his namesake Museum of historic race cars (The Collection | Simeone Foundation Automotive Museum) is a huge proponent of stewardship, recognizing that a car is only original once. While my car does not have a LeMans pedigree, it is significant in that unrestored vintage MGs are becoming a rarity.

You've been clear on your dislike of old British car paint and I understand your distancing yourself from the rainbow of reds evident on my car. In all fairness, the quality of the paint shoiuld be assessed on both aesthetics and ability to protect the metal (and wood, too). My car is virtually rust free, so while the finish is oxidized, the metal could not be more sound. Over the 3 decades of my ownership, it has spent extensive periods outside under a cover, not to mention lots of road time in all sorts of weather.

Let me know if you'd like me to start a new thread to document my preservation progress in hopes that others may see hope for their vintage car's patina instead of opting for a new paint job.

And again, mostly for everyone that will read this into the future...

I've owned 6 classic British cars myself, all of them had the original paint. And in my experience, the paint was a tick on the poor quality side from the factory. Meaning nothing you pour out of a bottle of any brand works great because the "stuff" you're working on wasn't great to start with. And after 70 years go by... it doesn't normally get better. What's the opposite of the word "better"?


Here's your picture,

At least there's some rich color now...


:dblthumb2:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

You've been clear on your dislike of old British car paint and I understand your distancing yourself from the rainbow of reds evident on my car.

Nothing personal about it - just my observations. And my observations are primarily for the color or pigment - red. My two Midgets, my two MGAs were red and had the same looking same reacting that I see with the paint on your car.

The brown on my Spitfire also didn't polish good. The yellow on the other Spitfire did actually polish good, so it could be issues with primarily just red pigmented single stage paints.

AND - out of all the different colored gelcoat boats I've detailed in my life, I would say red gelcoat has been the worst to oxidize, the hardest to bring back and the most difficult to preserve - so it could all be related to whatever is used to create red pigment. Lucky for me - I'm not a chemist so I don't have to figure it out, just make observations based upon real-world experience and then try to help others along the road of life.

Let me know if you'd like me to start a new thread to document my preservation progress in hopes that others may see hope for their vintage car's patina instead of opting for a new paint job.

No need for that... I think it's better to keep all this wonderful information in a single thread.


:cheers:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

And just to add....


Over the weekend I did a major paint correction, compounded this paint HARD! Then polished and sealed and this yellow all original paint car came out really nice.

So my theory is - when it comes to single stage paint, especially old single stage paint - pigment type is a important factor that affects everything about the paint.


The BIG PICTURE is, like you stated, no matter how it may look or how long it looks good - if it prevents the underlying metal from rusting - then it's doing its number #1 job.

 

[johnnyO]

When to apply LSP

After going through the #7 and #20 steps, I tried some of the #16 paste wax and found that it did not leave a transparent finish. It appeared as if it was soaking in unevenly rather than staying on top. This is an issue I had in the past when I was using Griot's discontinued Paint Sealant (which BTW has similar work-ability to #7). So I tried testing 2 other liquid products I have on hand. Griot's BOS and Poly Waxes. The 1" test spots are shown below with the Poly on the bottom. The results are similar in that it leaves a cloudy appearance.





Help me understand what's happening. Does the paint need more saturation of #7 or more layers of #20? I did try machine polishing the #20 on the slowest speed with a Griot's orange foam pad and firm pressure, but I have not tried any wax on top of that area I now feel confident in most areas of the car that it can handle a RO polish but not sure about increased speed or pressure.

Your thoughts on polishing and LSP?


Also, If I've already applied #20, will the paint still benefit from additional #7 or do I have to "strip" the sealant with a cleaner?


And.... the MGB GT looks great.... my son has one restored with single stage urethane about 20 years ago. Is there any video of your work on the GT?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Getting ready to go LIVE for our Thursday live detailing class.

What you're seeing is why you do testing to spots before doing the entire car. With paint this old in this condition there's simply no other way to find out what will work and won't work.

I'd stick with the #7/#20 routine.

And yes - you can apply #7 over the 20 - it will remove a little of the #20 but will also get past the #20.


You may have hit the wall or ceiling with this project.

 

[2black1s]

... Your thoughts on polishing and LSP?...

Here's my recommendation for what it's worth...

From my experience, compromised paint in the condition such as yours does not respond well to traditional methods. Especially traditional LSPs. The cloudy/hazy results you are seeing where you applied the LSP is often the norm.

There is another thread going on right now about preserving the paint on a 68 Dodge Charger. In that thread I have described my method of dealing with such paints. What I have found to be the best solution in these cases is using an "oily" protectant as the LSP. It is simple to apply and can be repeated as often as you'd like to keep the protection level you desire. The "protectant" will also provide some gloss and bring as much life as possible into the color.

I understand that my recommendation is outside the norm for paint protection, and I have never seen this recommendation anywhere else, but I have to tell you that for compromised paint such as yours, it works, and it's about the best you can do.

As far as what kind of protectant to use... Think of something that you may have used on an interior and didn't like it because it left behind a greasy/oily film... That's what you want.

 

[johnnyO]

Here's my recommendation for what it's worth...

From my experience, compromised paint in the condition such as yours does not respond well to traditional methods. Especially traditional LSPs. The cloudy/hazy results you are seeing where you applied the LSP is often the norm.

There is another thread going on right now about preserving the paint on a 68 Dodge Charger. In that thread I have described my method of dealing with such paints. What I have found to be the best solution in these cases is using an "oily" protectant as the LSP. It is simple to apply and can be repeated as often as you'd like to keep the protection level you desire. The "protectant" will also provide some gloss and bring as much life as possible into the color.

I understand that my recommendation is outside the norm for paint protection, and I have never seen this recommendation anywhere else, but I have to tell you that for compromised paint such as yours, it works, and it's about the best you can do.

As far as what kind of protectant to use... Think of something that you may have used on an interior and didn't like it because it left behind a greasy/oily film... That's what you want.

Great suggestion. I was looking into using Fluid Film as an initial product for saving my paint before learning about #7. I do plan to use it on chassis areas that are basically weathered steel where the paint is long gone. I contacted the company about using it on car paint as compared to Gibbs Brand which is recommended by some in the hot rod realm. They replied:

Yes it would be possible to add our product to the surface then rub it in like a wax so the product is in the pores of the surface but feels dry to the touch. We have a number of users who do this on chrome and other surfaces for the same reason.
Gibbs is high in solvents and designed to penetrate quick and dry or gets gummy over time.
​

So because Fluid Film is an oily lanolin wax product, I think it may perform better than ArmorAll or other silicone-type protectant. Or maybe not....

I wonder what the effect of adding additional layers of product. Is it better if the top layer sits on top of, rather than penetrates the sub-layer???

 

[johnnyO]

You may have hit the wall or ceiling with this project.

Does that mean my paint will not benefit appearance-wise by a layer of wax because it will likely result in a cloudy look regardless of beefing up the underlying layers?

There's no question that stopping with the #20 layer gives an acceptable appearance... similar to what the Griot's Paint Sealant provided in the past, but now with the added protection of the AIO. I want to consider all options for tweaking the finish for enhanced depth or warm sheen associated with an antique car finish.

While the modern PolyWax did not dry clear, I wonder if ceramic coating technology would work?


Please address the following so I can proceed. What are your thoughts on an "oily protectant" top coat that will dry to the touch? (See 2 previous posts above.)

Help me understand what's happening. Does the paint need more saturation of #7 or more layers of #20? I did try machine polishing the #20 on the slowest speed with a Griot's orange foam pad and firm pressure, but I have not tried any wax on top of that area I now feel confident in most areas of the car that it can handle a RO polish but not sure about increased speed or pressure.

Your thoughts on polishing and LSP?

Lastly, what washing product/method is best for my "fragile" paint? Can you provide me with a link?

Thank you for your guidance!!

 

[2black1s]

Great suggestion. I was looking into using Fluid Film as an initial product for saving my paint before learning about #7. I do plan to use it on chassis areas that are basically weathered steel where the paint is long gone. I contacted the company about using it on car paint as compared to Gibbs Brand which is recommended by some in the hot rod realm. They replied:

Yes it would be possible to add our product to the surface then rub it in like a wax so the product is in the pores of the surface but feels dry to the touch. We have a number of users who do this on chrome and other surfaces for the same reason.
Gibbs is high in solvents and designed to penetrate quick and dry or gets gummy over time.
​

So because Fluid Film is an oily lanolin wax product, I think it may perform better than ArmorAll or other silicone-type protectant. Or maybe not....

I wonder what the effect of adding additional layers of product. Is it better if the top layer sits on top of, rather than penetrates the sub-layer???

I think anything you use is going to penetrate to some extent. It's the nature of the compromised (porous) paint film remaining.

There are many products around today that were not available the last time I dealt with paint in your condition and some of those might provide good results. Even so, if I were in your shoes today my baseline would be the "protectant" method and I'd start experimenting from there.

One traditional LSP I might try would be Meguiar's Ultimate Wax (liquid). It's a fairly oily composition and it never really dries to a haze. It doesn't stain trim and I think that is a plus for porous paint. It may not leave behind the haziness that you've experienced with the LSPs you have tried so far.

I just recently read that Meguiar's has updated the Ultimate Wax formulation so I'm not sure if it still has the oily, non-hazing characteristics. I think those characteristics are a plus for paint in your condition.