DA and polish/compound created swirls....need help.

[jam]

Can the combination of Meguiars UC and a DA with an orange LC (CCS) pad cause swirls? This seems to have happened. This was on 9 yr old acrylic enamel that had oxidized and faded to orange from red. It actually seemed really really great just after doing it looking with a close-up light in the garage and at all angles, but now several days later out in the sun there is significant swirling that definitely was not from before, but the red has come right back. The roof actually seems a lot better but there are two differences: I used a white pad and a less aggressive green (when no whites were clean) with the UC, and i also worked the product for a short time (no more than 1min to 1.5min). Most of the rest of the car was with the orange (the spoiler and one front fender with white when the orange ones were dirty) but all these parts of the car have a lot of swirls. I was so frustrated with how short the work time appeared to be (judging by when it began to haze) on the roof with the UC (and previously test spots of M80 and M83), that i figured i wasn't working it as long as you could.....so i stretched that out to over 2min or more for the rest of the car. I also learned after the roof to use less product which made it like a light haze/fog that still "seemed" workable after multiple minutes.

Questions:
1. Is the UC and orange pad a combination that will lead to this and HAS to be followed up with something else?

2. Could this be a factor of working the product too long, and if so, how are you supposed to know how long you can work it? I had watched the "How to use the PC" video and it seemed it was until it hazed (he used M80) which seemed to be multiple minutes. As mentioned above, all 3 products seemed to haze VERY quickly in no more than one minute. Is the working time of these products actually that short? Does temp/humidity maybe shorten the time?

3. Do these polish/cleaner products actually hide swirls as well as remove them? Becuase the surface looked WAY better after polishing even under the garage light.......now you can EASILY see the swirls in the garage as well. The car was not done and i needed to take it somewhere, so i put Ultimate Quick wax on for some protection (the ultimate goal is a long lasting sealant). It was exposed to some light rain but now in most areas it is now hazy/cloudy and many more swirls evident almost as if the polish has washed off.

4. When you take off paint with these products, i always thought the underlying paint would have a nice gloss on it's own just like when it was new even when not enhanced with the polishing oils......of course only for a time until it oxidizes again, but for new paint that is quite a while. Why is it going hazy/cloudy as mentioned above so quickly (less than one week)? Once your paint is oxidized, are you then screwed and have to continually polish regularly for the life of the paint or when protected by a better product will it last potentially months? I definitely don't have it in me to do this every week! lol

I know i definitely need to tweek the process before i finish the remaining parts of the car and to go over the swirly parts again, so any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

thanks.

 

[JAF06SE]

Did you use a polish after the UC to clean it up? UC finishes out pretty good itself but still wouldn't hurt to follow it up.

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

Here is my take on the situation... and I hope others chime in as well. The swirls you are seeing out in the sun were there all along. You just couldn't see them in the lighting in your garage.

The action of a DA polisher will not produce swirl marks. Sometimes on certain types of paint with certain types of compound/polish you will get "DA Haze" but it does not look like swirl marks. It just sort of looks like swirl-free paint that isn't as glossy as it should be.

1. UC with an orange pad is a pretty aggressive combination. Although it will finish out very well, a lighter polish with a softer pad as a second step will really amp up the gloss.

2. You should stop working the product when you no longer see a wet film trailing your pad as you work the product. Temp/humidity/etc absolutely effect working times.

3. Have you washed the car since polishing? What is your process? If you could not see the swirls before and now you can see them it means one of two things: They were being hidden by polishing oils that have now washed away, revealing the swirls. OR, they have been instilled by the washing process.

4. Your paint will not re-oxidize that quickly... especially if protected with a quality wax or sealant. When you polish away oxidation you are removing the old, dead paint to reveal the fresh paint below. It would only get oxidized again if exposed to the elements for some time with no protection.

 

[jam]

ALso, it doesn't look like i mentioned but i was using speed 5 with the PC DA and i did at least two apps of UC per area in order to get rid of the orange faded paint.

Did you use a polish after the UC to clean it up? UC finishes out pretty good itself but still wouldn't hurt to follow it up.

No, not as of yet. I am waiting for some small 4" pads to make the front and rear clips easier but mostly wanted to consult some experienced people prior to continuing.

You should stop working the product when you no longer see a wet film trailing your pad as you work the product. Temp/humidity/etc absolutely effect working times.

So when it looks like a haze, that is too dry and you should stop? I was shocked at how quickly it went to a haze, it had to have been less than a minute. But if that is the case, it would have taken me probably 4 or 5 applications of UC and an orange pad per area with that doing so little work in that short amount of time.

Have you washed the car since polishing? What is your process? If you could not see the swirls before and now you can see them it means one of two things: They were being hidden by polishing oils that have now washed away, revealing the swirls. OR, they have been instilled by the washing process.

No, i have not yet since polishing, so these are from the polishing or from before. At first i thought that they were from before but in some areas i know they didn't look like that....the DA rotates as well though so i figured it may have been from that? The other reason i think it is from the DA is because some scratches on the hood i greatly reduced and yet there are swirls in that area, so i had surely taken off enough paint to otherwise remove the swirls i would think.

So if polishing oils hide swirls, how do you know you have actually gone far enough and gotten rid of them and they are not just hidden?

Oh and once i am confident to continue, what is the best way to deal with the spray wax that i temporarily put on there? Will the polishes like UP or M80 remove it or do i have to remove it some other way before proceeding?

thanks for all the info so far guys.

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

So when it looks like a haze, that is too dry and you should stop? I was shocked at how quickly it went to a haze, it had to have been less than a minute. But if that is the case, it would have taken me probably 4 or 5 applications of UC and an orange pad per area with that doing so little work in that short amount of time.

Make sure you are sufficiently priming the pad before you begin. The face of the pad should have product evenly worked into the foam yet you should still be able to see the texture of the foam surface. Then, add a few pea size drops of product on the pad as your "working product." This should allow you at least 4-6 section passes before it starts to dry up, depending on environmental conditions.

No, i have not (washed) yet since polishing, so these are from the polishing or from before. At first i thought that they were from before but in some areas i know they didn't look like that....the DA rotates as well though so i figured it may have been from that? The other reason i think it is from the DA is because some scratches on the hood i greatly reduced and yet there are swirls in that area, so i had surely taken off enough paint to otherwise remove the swirls i would think.

Some of the swirls and scratches could be deeper than you think depending on how neglected the finish was to begin with...

So if polishing oils hide swirls, how do you know you have actually gone far enough and gotten rid of them and they are not just hidden?

After finishing your compounding stage with UC, wipe off the polishing residue and then wipe the section with 10:1 IPA/Water or something else like CarPro Eraser to strip any remaining oils from the paint. Then look at that section with a bright light or in the sun to make sure that all of the defects you want to safely remove have been removed. Then, after you are sure all the swirls are gone you can move on to polishing and refining the finish to a show car shine.

Oh and once i am confident to continue, what is the best way to deal with the spray wax that i temporarily put on there? Will the polishes like UP or M80 remove it or do i have to remove it some other way before proceeding?

thanks for all the info so far guys.

Use APC mixed in with your next wash and a stronger dilution of soap in the bucket to strip all the spray wax off prior to getting back to correcting the paint. Then you will know the true condition of the surface you are working with without any fillers hiding anything.

Good luck! I'm expecting some stunning after pics!!! rops:

 

[jam]

Well, i have been priming the pad....hopefully an acceptable way.....i use chemical guys pad conditioner and spray it on and then put the pea size drops on. After a while i actually started using a spray of the conditioner before each section when adding more product rather than just at the very beginning. I kind of thought that the product didn't build up as much in the pad it seemed (you could see the texture longer).

Also still trying to learn all the detailing acronyms.....what is APC and IPA (some form of alcohol i know)?

I do have some pictures of where the hood and the roof were half done and the difference was amazing. I couldn't believe how much it actually faded and lost gloss.
thanks.

 

[350z00m]

APC= All Purpose Cleaner
IPA= Iso.. cant spell so.. its alcahole and water diluted..

 

[jam]

Question: is it normal to have paint dust being generated when polishing (with something aggressive like UC)? I noticed red dust today (paint is red). Would dust like that not possibly contribute to swirls?

I was working on the one bumper today and there is no question the swirls are coming out, granted it is taking a good 3 applications with the UC and orange pad. Now i hope others were not put in from polishing that i just can't see yet. I will have to back it out tomorrow in the sun before continuing any further to double check.

Now with the swirls almost greatly reduced and gone in certain areas, my thoughts are do not do any more UC and use a milder compound (maybe M80) with a white pad to finish taking them out and not take off more paint than necessary. Does that make sense or will it still be necessary to use an agressive product again with the orange or maybe jsut the white pad in order to get rid of swirls?

thanks.

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

Question: is it normal to have paint dust being generated when polishing (with something aggressive like UC)? I noticed red dust today (paint is red). Would dust like that not possibly contribute to swirls?

I was working on the one bumper today and there is no question the swirls are coming out, granted it is taking a good 3 applications with the UC and orange pad. Now i hope others were not put in from polishing that i just can't see yet. I will have to back it out tomorrow in the sun before continuing any further to double check.

Now with the swirls almost greatly reduced and gone in certain areas, my thoughts are do not do any more UC and use a milder compound (maybe M80) with a white pad to finish taking them out and not take off more paint than necessary. Does that make sense or will it still be necessary to use an agressive product again with the orange or maybe jsut the white pad in order to get rid of swirls?

thanks.

If you are working on single stage paint you will get dust/color transfer that is the color of the paint. That is normal since you are removing paint while compounding/polishing. If you are working on base/clear than it means you have a problem...

It sounds like you are making good progress. There is always a balance to keep in mind: perfection vs protection. There is a finite amount of paint to work with and it is up to you to decide how far you want to pursue each and every little scratch. If this is a daily driver it may make more sense to leave most of the RIDS there and keep a thicker layer of paint on the vehicle.

When I am correcting paint I use whatever I am using during my compounding stage to remove all the defects I intend to remove. Then I progress to polishing steps only to refine the finish, remove holograms/haze, etc. I don't consider the polishing step to be removing defects that were there to begin with, I use it to remove defects imparted by the compounding stage.

Happy polishing! :buffing:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

What are you working on?

Or did I just not see it mentioned?


Single stage paint is pretty rare now days.... so what are you working on?


:dunno:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Nicholas is right, DA polishers don't instill swirls, they remove them. They can instill DA Haze, also called micro-marring or Tick Marks.

The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls and Micro-Marring



If you're new to machine polishing with a DA, read through this and make sure you're not making any of the common mistakes...

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide


Also, don't buff to a dry buff as this can cause DA Haze...

DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide


And if you are working on single stage paint, be sure you're cleaning your pad often...

How to clean your foam pad on the fly



All of the above can be found in my book and my article list...

 

[jam]

What are you working on?

Or did I just not see it mentioned?


Single stage paint is pretty rare now days.... so what are you working on?


:dunno:

Sorry about that, i guess i didn't include all of the details about. It is a mid 80's firebird with 9 or 10 yr old red acrylic enamel that i had painted back then after i did all the bodywork. After all that work the car never ended up being a daily driver as was originally intended, but still sat out a lot in the earlier years unlike in more recent times. A busy life sadly led to neglect as the last wax (Meg's #20 sealant) was 3 or 4 yrs ago. It has definitely faded and dulled over the yrs (the worst naturally in the recent few years).

After working on the bumper a couple days ago (and seeing the reduction in the swirls after several applications), and reading everyones input, i am mow thinking that most were probably there before and somehow were masked. What i still don't understand is why they are obvious now in the same lighting. the one thing i am wondering though is if they got there in part from polishing dust/material getting in there from working too long or from the DA motor blowing it in from laying on the windows near-by?

Thanks for the links Mike......I have some reading to do!

And thanks everyone for all the input so far, it is definitely looking FAR better than it did. Unfortunately i can't post too many pics as they are not 640x480. I do have some good half and half ones of the roof and hood.

The first several are all before. The last two pics are after using the UC and then putting on the Ultra spray wax for temp protection while we took it somewhere on a trip. They show the haze/cloudiness I was referring to above in question 4. It did rain once a bit and those pictures are after washing and after only one week (and that one small rain). Why would it go hazy like that so quick, even with the wax on? That does not come off and will again have to be polished.