Did A Test Spot - Less Than Thrilled With The Results

[Kappy]

Sorry for the long post, but you guys do like all the details.

Time to make the leap. I decided today would be the day I'd do a test spot, at least so I could make sure I had the correct products, and as the subject line says, I didn't get the results I had hoped for.

2012 black Nissan Murano, using a GG DA with 5" backing plate and 51/2" LC flat pads.

After doing a Garry Dean wash with ONR and claying the car, I started with M205 on a white pad first, just to see if I'd get any results.

Trying to remember everything I'd read and seen:

Covered the windshield with a towel
Marked the back of the 5" plate so I could make sure it was rotating
Marked an area on the hood a little less than 24" x 16"
Primed the white pad with M205 as shown by Mike
Added 3 small drops to the primed pad
Put the cord over my shoulder and was ready to go

Using a speed of 3, I did a few passes to spread the polish
Stopped and set the speed for 5
Did 6 section passes, 3 horizontal and 3 vertical

A few times I noticed that the pad wasn't rotating so I tried to keep the DA straighter. The hood is not really flat so I had to follow the contour or I'd start tilting a little bit to one side. I never felt like I was pressing that hard when the pad stop rotating, and sometimes didn't feel like I was pressing hard enough.

My first problem was trying to wipe off the polish. I read posts about this, but couldn't remember all of the suggestions that were made. I had some ONR clay lube handy, which I sprayed on the car, but that didn't help. I was starting to worry that I was rubbing so hard with the towel that I was going to add scratches to the paint.

I added 3 more drops of polish to the pad and did another 6 section passes. Again, it was hard to get the polish off, and once I did, the paint didn't look much better to me.

I decided to try M205 on an orange pad, instead of jumping right to M105. As I was priming the orange pad, I realized that I probably hadn't used enough polish when priming the white pad, even though I thought I used as much as I had seen Mike put on the pads in his videos. I guess it was hard for me to see the white polish on the white pad, but much easier to determine how much polish was required to prime the orange pad.

Instead of moving to a new spot, I went over the original test spot to see if I could improve it. After 6 section passes, twice, if there was any improvement it was very subtle.

On the other hand, I've had an odd drip mark on the side of my car, where some pin striping had been removed by the dealer. A few days after I picked up the car I noticed that there was still a very faint shadow where the stripes had been, but you could only see them in certain light. They appeared black on the black car, and it was an effect that didn't bother me.

What I didn't like was that at one end, right below where the stripes had been, there appeared to be 4 or 5, three inch long drip marks, either from a solvent that had been used, or possibly from some type of polish that the dealer put on the car. I had tried Dawn, and a very weak IPA solution, but neither one made a dent in the marks.

The M205 on the orange pad took the drip marks right off the car. I couldn't see that it removed any of the pin stripe shadow, and it didn't really do much for the swirls, but the marks that stood out the most to me were finally gone.

Since I didn't feel that I was making much progress I got out the M105 and a fresh orange pad. Primed it and did 6 section passes. Could barely wipe it off, and where I could, I still couldn't see much change. I did another 6 section passes, after adding a few drops to the pad, and I'll bet it took longer to wipe it off than it did to do the passes. Possibly fewer swirls, but I didn't know how many times I should go over the same section, and struggle to wipe off the polish, so I called it quits for the day.

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. The car hadn't been driven so the hood wasn't warm, and although it was starting to get hot outside, I was in the garage where it wasn't that uncomfortable.

I went through the entire trouble shooting guide, and not using the correct amount of product might be my biggest issue. I never even got to the "cleaning pads enough" stage since I only did 2 passes with each pad, and maybe I should have done more.

The one positive from today is that I never forgot to keep the pad in contact with the paint when turning on or off the DA. At this point, I'll take whatever success I can get.

I'm not opposed to trying this again, especially while the car is clean, and I'll take whatever suggestions I can get.

I'm also thinking that I can watch a hundred videos and read a thousand posts, but it could be even more helpful if there was a skilled detailer/forum member in the Dallas area who wouldn't mind taking a look at the car and my technique. I've now read enough to know that every car, and every situation, is different, and someone who's done this for awhile might be able to share some expertise in person that would save me a lot of trial and error. Just a thought ....

 

[Rsurfer]

105 can react to humidity and temperature. Do a smaller section (18"X18") and less passes (4) before a wipe down and inspection. If the work time is still short and removal difficult, add 2 pea drops of 205 to your pad. When you empty your 105 jug, I would recommend you getting M101, much easier to work with.

 

[StuDLei]

As a noob, I had this same problem when I first started. I'm not sure if I ever figured out exactly what I was doing wrong at that point, but I'm betting it was my technique. More specifically, I think I was moving too fast, not making overlapping passes, and probably not using enough pressure (Flex). I would keep on trying and eventually you'll get it.

I have never used anything but the Flex, but from what I've heard, I thought the GG could handle quite a bit of pressure and keep rotating. Try using "firm" pressure and slowing your passes down to a snails pace and work a smaller section.

When you wipe it off, you can try using ONR, a QD, or IPA (I use Eraser). FOLD the towel up, but IMO don't be afraid to get a little aggressive wiping 105 off.

GL

 

[Eric@CherryOnTop]

105 is a SMAT compound meaning it doesn't use diminishing abrasives. You can stop polishing whenever you want as long as you get the results you are after without having to worry about not having broken down the abrasives enough to not leave any swirling, if that makes sense. It sounds like you might be drying the product out on the paint and "dry buffing" which is bound to leave behind some marring. If you notice the area behind where you just buffed seems dry, this is a sure sign that this is what is happening. 105 is also notorious for having a short working time. Try these things:

- prime your pad like you have been doing, but apply your working product directly to the paint. Try a 2-4" stripe for an 18x18 section. Mist your pad lightly with pure water, quick detailer or pad conditioner. Don't spread the product out before working as this might dry it out prematurely.
- if you notice dry trails behind the buffer stop and apply more product. With 105 there is no need to wipe off the previously applied product before continuing.
- you can mist some water or QD or even IPA on the paint to help product removal. Don't rub too hard because to do t want to reintroduce swirls and scratches.

How about posting some pics of what you are working on? Let us know how it goes.

Sent from my Transformer using AG Online

 

[swanicyouth]

If this is your first time using a polisher, maybe this will help:

- Ive never used 105, but some day its hard to use for a noob, maybe another polish may work out better. Wolfgang and Optimum polishes are very user friendly

- if its was hot, heat can definitely affect the polish. IMO, you shouldn't add water or anything else to the polish - shrink your work area instead.

- when the polish is too hard to wipe off, it usually means you used too much, not too little.

- M105 is a pretty aggressive polish, if its not making a dent in your defects its likely technique related:

* prime your pads initially. Just enough to turn the pad the color of the polish. It should be hard to spread the polish out to cover the whole pad face to make it the color of the polish. Then spray pad with one spray only of detail spray. One spray only. Then add 3 or 4 dots the diameter of a dime of polish to the pad

*15 lbs of pressure down on the polisher

* move the polisher 1-2 inches a second. Measuring how much space your covering and counting in your head can help.

* overlap passes by 50%

* do 4-5 passes at the most in the heat

* shrink your work area down in the heat , even as small as 12"x12"

* wipe the polish off ASAP when your done polishing.

* M105 often gets reported as a "dusty polish", lack of dust could be another sign your using too much polish.

 

[tuscarora dave]

It sounds to me like you're using too much product, or "working wet" as it's called. There's a time and a place for working wet. To keep your thread on focus, I'll just say that attempting to correct clearcoat with a non diminishing product like 105 or 205 isn't really a time to be working wet.

It seems to me that when you apply too much product to your pad and begin buffing on the paint, during your first several passes your abrasives will be hyper lubricated or suspended off of the paint, hydroplaning on a thin layer of the product's liquid components. Kind of the same as your car tires (at a certain speed) can hydroplane over standing water on the road allowing you to lose control of the car. When this is happening there will be minimal defect removal at best.

Ok, back to the pad priming and compounding stage. I watched the "Kevin Brown Method" being demonstrated and noticed that Kevin would recommend first priming the pad similar to what Mike shows in his videos, but then Kevin would take a microfiber towel and absorb some of the liquid with the towel before he began polishing.

Having a lot of trouble with the use and learning curve of M-105 I tried it and noticed a better cut. I found also that once I did a few section passes and started seeing a significantly less amount of product trailing behind my pad, the cutting was just now becoming more efficient and the majority of the defect removal seemed to be occurring between this point and the point that the product was going completely invisible on the paint. Years later I still observe this, however I don't use the towel to absorb the product back out of the primed pad. I use a certain amount of product (about 1/2 the amount that Mike uses) to prime my pad and I use the side of my finger to smear it flat across the pad. I'm not really trying to load the pad up with product, but more so ensuring that 100% of the face of the pad has abrasives on in.

After achieving this thin but thorough layer of product, I place the pad on the paint and begin working section passes in about a 12 to 15 inch squared section until the product goes completely clear on the paint. I do not polish or compound past the point where the product goes completely clear on the paint because I don't want to be dry buffing the paint. As soon as it goes clear on the paint I turn the machine off and then lift the polisher off the paint.

To be clear about what I mean, I work the section until the pad essentially removes 95% of the product and then I turn the machine off. When I do turn the machine off and lift the pad off of the paint, there is typically a small damp area where the pad was on the paint where there is a little damp product residue left behind to wipe off. Whatever else that's left on the paint is so thin that it wipes off effortlessly. "The end" that I describe in this last paragraph is what you need to strive for in each work section. So if you're working 6 to 10 section passes in any one work section and you're still ending up wet with a hard to remove layer of product still on the paint one of a few things are likely, (1) you're still using too much product, and (2) you likely didn't achieve the the correction you were expecting on a medium to harder paint system.

At this point simply keep working without adding more product to the pad until the product trailing behind the pad is all but clear and then get ready to shut her down as soon as it goes clear. Of course check your results before deciding to just keep on compounding until the product is used up from the pad. If you got your correction after your projected amount of passes, move on to the next work section. Start using less and less product until you are finishing a work section in 6 to 10 section passes with the product just going clear at the end, and you'll have found the right amount of product to use on your Murano.

Perhaps this will help some. I'm all googley eyed over here from looking at this screen too long.

 

[Kappy]

105 can react to humidity and temperature. Do a smaller section (18"X18") and less passes (4) before a wipe down and inspection. If the work time is still short and removal difficult, add 2 pea drops of 205 to your pad. When you empty your 105 jug, I would recommend you getting M101, much easier to work with.

Thanks. If everything eventually goes well, after this paint correction I hope not to need any more 105 or 101.

As a noob, I had this same problem when I first started. I'm not sure if I ever figured out exactly what I was doing wrong at that point, but I'm betting it was my technique. More specifically, I think I was moving too fast, not making overlapping passes, and probably not using enough pressure (Flex). I would keep on trying and eventually you'll get it.

I have never used anything but the Flex, but from what I've heard, I thought the GG could handle quite a bit of pressure and keep rotating. Try using "firm" pressure and slowing your passes down to a snails pace and work a smaller section.

When you wipe it off, you can try using ONR, a QD, or IPA (I use Eraser). FOLD the towel up, but IMO don't be afraid to get a little aggressive wiping 105 off.

GL

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll bet that while I think I'm crawling, I'm still moving too fast and not giving the polisher a chance to work.

105 is a SMAT compound meaning it doesn't use diminishing abrasives. You can stop polishing whenever you want as long as you get the results you are after without having to worry about not having broken down the abrasives enough to not leave any swirling, if that makes sense. It sounds like you might be drying the product out on the paint and "dry buffing" which is bound to leave behind some marring. If you notice the area behind where you just buffed seems dry, this is a sure sign that this is what is happening. 105 is also notorious for having a short working time. Try these things:

- prime your pad like you have been doing, but apply your working product directly to the paint. Try a 2-4" stripe for an 18x18 section. Mist your pad lightly with pure water, quick detailer or pad conditioner. Don't spread the product out before working as this might dry it out prematurely.
- if you notice dry trails behind the buffer stop and apply more product. With 105 there is no need to wipe off the previously applied product before continuing.
- you can mist some water or QD or even IPA on the paint to help product removal. Don't rub too hard because to do t want to reintroduce swirls and scratches.

How about posting some pics of what you are working on? Let us know how it goes.

Sent from my Transformer using AG Online

More good suggestions. Thanks.

I was afraid to rub too hard with the towel, but maybe with all of these tips I won't have to worry about it.

I did try to take photos, but I need to find a new location where you don't see the reflection of my garage door, or the sky, and no car, in every one.

If this is your first time using a polisher, maybe this will help:

- Ive never used 105, but some day its hard to use for a noob, maybe another polish may work out better. Wolfgang and Optimum polishes are very user friendly

- if its was hot, heat can definitely affect the polish. IMO, you shouldn't add water or anything else to the polish - shrink your work area instead.

- when the polish is too hard to wipe off, it usually means you used too much, not too little.

- M105 is a pretty aggressive polish, if its not making a dent in your defects its likely technique related:

* prime your pads initially. Just enough to turn the pad the color of the polish. It should be hard to spread the polish out to cover the whole pad face to make it the color of the polish. Then spray pad with one spray only of detail spray. One spray only. Then add 3 or 4 dots the diameter of a dime of polish to the pad

*15 lbs of pressure down on the polisher

* move the polisher 1-2 inches a second. Measuring how much space your covering and counting in your head can help.

* overlap passes by 50%

* do 4-5 passes at the most in the heat

* shrink your work area down in the heat , even as small as 12"x12"

* wipe the polish off ASAP when your done polishing.

* M105 often gets reported as a "dusty polish", lack of dust could be another sign your using too much polish.

I'm going to have to take my iPad into the garage so I can refer to all of the suggestions. Thanks.

Actually, I didn't mention the dust, but I did have some, which might have been more from me wiping off the polish than from the polishing itself.

I've never attempted anything like this, which makes me no different than a lot of people who frequent this forum. You see all the great after pictures and forget that there are stages during the paint correction where the car doesn't look that great, and even the pros struggle occasionally with certain paints and have to try a variety of products.

The other thing is my fear of going through the clear coat, the paint and then the metal, so you can check the oil without opening the hood. I know. Not gonna happen.

 

[tuscarora dave]

You see all the great after pictures and forget that there are stages during the paint correction where the car doesn't look that great, and even the pros struggle occasionally with certain paints and have to try a variety of products.

That's a great description of what's seen in my shop during the compounding stages. Great insight!!

The other thing is my fear of going through the clear coat, the paint and then the metal, so you can check the oil without opening the hood. I know. Not gonna happen.

Now that's just straight funny, I love it!!:laughing:

 

[Kappy]

I was reading this thread again and taking some notes, when I was reminded of something Junkman said in one of the first detailing videos I watched.

Technique trumps product.

And he's a perfect example.

I've read that he used to work with Adam's products, and in the video I watched he used M105 and M205, which I have no doubt influenced my initial decision to work with those two. Now he's using Optimum products and still getting great results.

The only thing in common is his use of the Porter Cable DA and Hex-Logic pads. And his years of experience and technique.

In another thread, Sonic/Ihaveacamero/Roshan said he had success working on a Nissan with 205 on an orange pad, followed by 205 on a red pad. (Not a typo - 2 applications of 205). The 205 on the orange pad left some marring, which was removed by using the red pad. This is what gave me the idea to try the 205 on the orange pad, though I realize my Nissan could have entirely different paint.

So now I'm trying to decide which product and pad do I start with? Was it my technique that prevented the 205 and white or orange pad from doing the job, or do I need something as aggressive as the 105? I have no problem starting over, but now I'm confused about the best appproach.

 

[tuscarora dave]

I used a lot of sub par products getting to the point that I am at now. I have a hard time throwing old products away so every now and then I'll use those old products that I cut my teeth on just to try getting rid of them. I have to totally change my technique and even go from DA to rotary to maximize their performance but typically I can get great results with them, though it takes much more time.

Don't put too much time into over thinking it outside of the garage. It's said that it's best to choose a set of pads and products and master them before moving on to something else. Otherwise you'll be spinning your wheels getting nowhere and spending a ton of money on a shelf full of products that you have no idea how to use efficiently.

Practice, practice then practice some more.

 

[Becciasm]

Kappy,

Im with you man. Sometimes it's the products，sometimes it's the environment, sometimes it's the technique. Today, I was battling 95 deg temps and 95% humidity, which was making my products gum up and not perform as usual. Carpro fixer on LC pads. But the humidity made things slow going and we have to postpone the rest of the paint correction to another day.

Keep at it, the advice posted here is sage. Prop the iPad up in the garage for reference.

Sent from my VS840 4G using AG Online

 

[HateSwirls]

I don't prime my pads, I start with three large drops then three small pea size drops for each panel.
No issues, it wipes off very easy for me, the 205 wipes off like a wax, so easy, I just love the combo.

It make take you time to figure out the correct method that works for you.

 

[hernandez.art13]

I have only used 3M compound and polishes before discovering AG.

I then switched to 105 (just for kicks)
I really like it.

I do agree with Technique Trumps Product even with machines (for the most part)

I am learning how to use a DA Polisher but I am capable of using a Rotary.

I like the idea of you finding a Reputable Detailer in your area that would be willing to help you out. (Teach you)

IMO this would save you a lot of time. Yes IMO it is possible to learn by reading and watching videos and practice and practice. But hands on training will be a plus to further enhance your Detailing Knowledge.

Any quick questions or quick tips would be available for your right there on the spot with hands on training.

That's how I learned. (Kinda they gave me a buffer wet sand paper and said good luck after a 5 minute demo, then they walked to there office, any questions I had I had to run back to the office, did a lot of running back in the beginning)

Either Way Good Luck!

Art

 

[StuDLei]

When you guys are polishing with 105 and it starts to leave dry "crescent moons" behind the buffer trail, what do you do? Personally I have found it's fine to just go back over them. Maybe I am drying buffing a little bit, I don't know, but it's these "crescent moons" that are next to impossible to take off by hand sometimes. I don't worry too much about creating a flawless finish with 105 anyways, because I'm always going to use a less aggressive product afterwards.

Just wondered if people experience the same thing and if that's how they handle it?

 

[Kappy]

Round 2. Some improvement but still slightly less fun than I had hoped.

It's possible the polish is doing everything it's supposed to, and just requires several rounds of section passes. Having never done this before, I have no idea how many sets of passes it takes to remove the swirls, and my expectations were one or two sets per section. I'm not even sure where I got that idea. There are a couple of really small marks in the paint that I hoped the polish would remove, but they look the same as when I started. The absence of the drip marks show the most evidence of any work I've done, so something worked someplace, just not everyplace.

I'm realizing that my garage is not the best working environment for this because of poor lighting. It would be fine if I had more experience, or was sure that a certain number of passes gave the desired results, but even with a light I'm using as a swirl finder, I can't really see my work that well.

Anyway, on to today's episode.

I primed an orange pad, added one spray of the ONR pre-spray solution I use when washing the car, and 3 drops of polish. This time I also wore my lucky T shirt and special magic polishing shoes.

Worked a smaller area and concentrated on working slowly, with enough pressure, as many of you suggested.

I could see a little more polish being applied to the car and the pad never stopped rotating. I did 5 passes and stopped to check my work. I won't say it was easy to wipe off the polish, but easier than yesterday since the polish was not as dry.

A little more dust today than yesterday, which was hard to wipe up, even with a damp towel and some ONR spray.

Added 3 drops of polish to the pad and did 5 more section passes. A little more difficult to remove the polish this time, and it's hard to tell if the second set of passes made much of a difference. Again, it could be the lighting and the fact that now I've tested a few areas so it's harder to compare one section to the next.

Created even more dust, and not just on the hood. After trying to clean it, the front end of my car still looks like it has dandruff.

When I moved the car outside I expected it to look a lot worse than it does because of residual polish. There are a few spots that could use a better cleaning, and I can see dust, but the spots I polished blend in okay with the rest of the hood.

I'm still not sure if M105 and I are going to continue to be on speaking terms. I'm not looking for instant success, but after two attempts I don't know if there's much progress, unless it just requires more section passes. Certainly could be me and not the product, but I would consider trying something else to avoid any more frustration. The clean up is far worse than the polishing, and now I understand what I've been reading about the dust issue.

I'm still considering posting a help wanted ad to see if someone in Dallas is available for a little coaching. It couldn't hurt to have someone else check my technique, and get an opinion as to whether M105 is the right product for my car.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I was reading this thread again and taking some notes, when I was reminded of something Junkman said in one of the first detailing videos I watched.

Technique trumps product.

I disagree with a caveat...

Technique only trumps product assuming the product actually works. I say this all the time..

When it comes to working on clear coats, it's all about the abrasive technology being used. If the abrasive technology works, then it's all about technique and of course using the right pad.

If the abrasive technology doesn't work, you can use all the best technique all day long and it's still not going to look good when you're done.


There's lots of variables in the paint polishing world...

I'm still considering posting a help wanted ad to see if someone in Dallas is available for a little coaching. It couldn't hurt to have someone else check my technique, and get an opinion as to whether M105 is the right product for my car.

If you lived closer I'd be happy to lend a hand...

A relatively new forum member sent me a PM last week, said he would be in town today and asked if he came by, could he test out the Flex 3401 and the Rupes polishers. Not only did I say "yes" but I also brought a really cool car in for him to work on and we took it for a ride around the building.

Detailer’s Paint Coating on Single Stage Paint

We have a lot of great members here on the forum and it's a whole lot easier to learn when someone that's experienced and good at this is there to work with you. So start a thread and be sure to write the title in a way so the right people reading it will know to click on it.

How to write a good title for your thread



Sounds like you're making progress and others have already posted tons of great tips to help you tweak your technique...

 

[therapy1]

I had the same problems the first time I used 205/105, made the mistake of using in the sun. Keep the faith, I have since come to love this combo. Maybe try mf cutting pads, IMO it dusts like crazy but the cutting power is vastly improved. Just a thought.

 

[Kappy]

I disagree with a caveat...

Technique only trumps product assuming the product actually works. I say this all the time..

When it comes to working on clear coats, it's all about the abrasive technology being used. If the abrasive technology works, then it's all about technique and of course using the right pad.

If the abrasive technology doesn't work, you can use all the best technique all day long and it's still not going to look good when you're done.

There's lots of variables in the paint polishing world...

If you lived closer I'd be happy to lend a hand...

Thanks. I appreciate that. And I'd be waiting at the garage before you opened in the morning.

From the day I joined the forum I've been trying to read as much as I can, and ask the right questions, before I touched my car. I really don't mind waiting a little longer to get more information, which could ultimately save me time, and aggravation, down the road.

We have a lot of great members here on the forum and it's a whole lot easier to learn when someone that's experienced and good at this is there to work with you. So start a thread and be sure to write the title in a way so the right people reading it will know to click on it.

What's the best category to post a help wanted ad, for someone who wouldn't read all new posts?

And I agree 100%. I'm amazed at how many members, including you, of course, who are willing the share their knowledge and expertise.

Sounds like you're making progress and others have already posted tons of great tips to help you tweak your technique...

I have made some progress. You should see my shrine to detailing supplies, small by most standards, but considering that two months ago I didn't own a single product, it's pretty surprising.

 

[StuDLei]

Did you check it in full sunlight? If so, how does it look? Can you take pics?


How far away is Arlington from Dallas? I know a VERY good detailer in that area and I might be able to get you two in touch. If it happens, I will be extremely jealous because I said years ago I wish I could hang out with him for just a day or two, because he's very good at what he does.

Some of you probably know him: "Scottwax."

 

[Kappy]

Thanks for the offer.

Depending on where in Arlington, and traffic, it's probably about 45 minutes from where I live. I've actually watched some of his videos, including one on using a DA.