Engine shampoo vs liability

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Xcessiv

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Hey fellow detailers. :buffing:

I offer engine shampoos to all my customers for no additional cost as part of 2-step polishes or compound packages. I cover all electrical components and ensure the engine isn't hot prior to washing. I only use fire hose nozzles to ensure there's no pressure at all.

Once everything is clean, I let it run for 20-30 minutes w/ hood closed to ensure that all water evaporates.

So 20-25 shampoos later, I have a customer complaining that his 6 years old car started acting up 100 km and 4 days later. Obviously, I want to ensure that all my customers are fully satisfied and might cover part of the repair, but I'm wondering until when should I worry about this kind of liability. Usually, if the car runs well for the next 24 hours or so I consider the job as successful.

:nomore:
 
PS.: the customer specifically said that he wasn't accusing me and wasn't expecting any reimbursement, but I'm asking here to see if I should actually pay part of the repair or not.
 
DARK HORSE said:
What is in need of repair?
Click to expand...
He doesn't know yet. The engine went in safe mode and no throttle response. Could be the Throttle Position Sensor for which there were some recalls on these Mustangs.

Considering that:
- I took all imaginable precautions
- A sensor can go bad anytime on a 6 years old car
- These sensors are known to go bad even without engine shampoos on these Mustangs
- The car ran fine for ~100 km and 4 days

I know that I'm in a position where I could potentially tell him that I'm not liable for such a delayed effect, but until now I had a 100% satisfaction rate so that's why I'm asking here.
 
I think before you can fully evaluate the situation you need to know for sure what the failure is. Currently doesn't sound like a problem you induced to me. Just unlucky timing. But see for sure what the issue is and see how the owner feels about it, after finding out for sure. When you find out for sure what it is contact the dealer, or if you have a mechanic you trust and ask them "Is there any way possible washing the engine could have caused the problem, let alone 4 days later"?
 
No need to tell you that I'll start steam cleaning from now on. I don't like this incertitude, even if this wasn't caused by me there's still a correlation that is perceptible by this customer... I spent a lot of overtime to make his car 100% perfect, but he'll remember the engine issue instead of the perfect finish.
 
A dirty mass air flow sensor can cause the car to run poorly. It's installed in the air intake tubing. Also, does he have a cold air kit such as a K&N? I have seen where people have cleaned and re-oiled their air filter and if too much oil is applied it can clog up the mass air flow sensor and cause issues.

Just something to look at. Good luck with it.

Eric
 
Until it is checked by a tech their is no way of knowing but I can tell you that washing the engine with a stream of water can cause problems weeks later.

The water gets in the connection and causes corrosion it will run ok until it can no longer make contact due to the corrosion.

I would never clean a engine in the manner that you did or steam it either, all cleaning should be done by hand with a rag.

As someone who has worked in this field ( retired now ) I can assure you that many a car has been screwed up by washing in the manner you describe.
 
This happened to me about a year ago on a buddy's car. It was a 2006 GLI with 100,000 miles on it. I used the same method of washing the motor as I did one my 2008 GTI. Then we went to the track that night everything was fine then the next day the car started acting funny.

Well it turns out he never changed his coil packs for that 100,000 and the plus were already in bad shape being on there for 70,000 so there was a gap and water got in the coil back and when the motor got at the water boiled and messed up 2 coil packs.

Now I always use a compressor to dry the motor as well as let it run for 15-20 mintues to make sure all the water is gone. Because he did not take proper care of his motor it got a little hurt.
 
If you are only using a garden hose with no powerful pressure then you should be fine.....all the components under the Hood are water proof.....what happens when you drive on the highway in the monsoon rain? Everything gets soaked. I am mobile so I only detail engines on request and my contract has a waiver in regards to engine details so I wouldn't pay for repairs.
 
Always get a waiver signed. You don't know what condition that engine is in before you clean it. That being said, I will add this.

Engine cleaning has to be done following the correct steps but the three most important to me are.

1) The engine cannot be hot. It could be slightly warm to the touch but if it's hot, you risk condensation problems when you spray water on hot metal and it turns to steam. This can mess up parts in the electrical system.

2) Sensitive electrical parts should be covered to protect them from water. In most cases a little water won't hurt them but a flood of water could.

3) The engine degreaser is usually a very strong chemical. Spray it on, let it dwell to do it's job then totally rinse it off. Some people spray on degreaser and wipe it off with a towel and call that engine cleaning. It is not! Engine degreaser must be totally rinsed from every area it touched the engine.

If it is not totally removed, degreaser can work its way into the bearings of the pulleys that guide the timing belt. Once degreaser is inside the bearings it destroys the lubricant the keeps the bearings rolling and the bearing fail. This can happen over the space of a few days to as long as a few months. That is what you sound like you have here.

It shouldn't be too expensive to change all of them (maybe a few hundred dollars)but you learn a valuable lesson that should last a lifetime. Always make sure to rinse all the engine degreaser off all parts of the engine, especially the bearings.

Derrick
 
I dont believe an engine nor all those electrical items, fuse boxes, and altenator are water-proof as suggest above. They might be designed and placed to be water and dirt resistant at best. I would personally NEVER use streaming or pressurized water under a hood, and feel most engine cleaning can be done with other methods.
 
killrwheels@autogeek said:
I dont believe an engine nor all those electrical items, fuse boxes, and altenator are water-proof as suggest above. They might be designed and placed to be water and dirt resistant at best. I would personally NEVER use streaming or pressurized water under a hood, and feel most engine cleaning can be done with other methods.
Click to expand...

Funny reading my post....I realised that water PROOF is a bad use of terms! Water resistant would be better since water proof means you can submerge it. Honestly I have been lightly (gently) wetting my engines, and cleaning them gently for years and never had an issue
 
I will admit I learned a valuable (and costly) lesson with an Opti-spark in a TransAm. Since then, I tread lightly.
 
I've washed the engines in my cars for many years with no issues. I recently washed my Toyota, started it and ran it for a while...even drove it to the store. The next day we were going to NYC for my daughter's Bday...yep...the Toyota started running like crap a few miles from the house. One of the spark plug cavities filled with water and shorted a COP (coil on plug). $100 for a new one....found some at a salvage yard in CT for $10 each but had to wait 4 days to get them here. Luckily, I have a code scanner and was able to figure it out. If I had to pay someone else it would have been $80 to diagnose, $100 for the part and another $80 to install....or more. I'd say that you want to use as little water as possible or get the client to sign a waiver that states once they accept the car, your liability has expired.
 
Having pressure washed engines for about 10 years back in the day working at high volume shops, one tends to get a pretty good idea of what to look out for when cleaning engines. Removing and drying of distributor caps was pretty much part of the detail job back then as well as blowing out the spark plug cavities on motors with recessed plugs/wires. probably would have been a good idea to invest into WD-40 stock back then now that I think about it! :D

I do things a lot different today...much more caution is used when dealing with engines now and I usually avoid doing them if possible. If I must do one I make sure the owners is well aware of the risk and that I'm not responsible for any damage that may incur. In over 20 years I can really only recall a couple cars that actually required a mechanic to fix at our shop...and we were doing 15-20 cars a day. One was a fried ECU, and the other was on a car with recessed plugs. I've never had an issue with one since I've been on my own.


Thank god for today's cars with sealed caps! :D

Rasky
 
I am contemplating doing my engine. I was planning on degreasing with Zep Citrus and pretty much wiping everything down after a spritz with water in a garden sprayer. Does this sound safe enough?

Jenn
 
This will occasionally happen when cleaning engines. Tell your customer to bring to a dealership, and have them diagnose and you should pay for the repair no questions asked. He'll definitely be back for another detail, but you'll have to consider this one a loss. Usually it's just water down a spark plug hole. We clean 3-4 engines a day, and once a year or so we get one that has runability issues.
 
I personally work at an independent repair shop and every major service we do we also spray the engine down with degreaser and hose them down. We always do it with the engine running. On occasion they will start misfiring or will throw a code for a bad knock sensor. I just shut them off, get out the blow gun and blow off all the water around the important parts. Restart and clear any codes that came up and they run just like normal.. Never had anything fail as a result. Then the next time we work on the cars they are nice and clean so we dont get filthy from working on them! :props:
 
Couldn't this be avoided if you just hit the motor with a leaf blower immediately after you lightly spray the engine bay?

That has what I have been doing. I'll cover any critical parts (aftermarket intake for example) and then spray degreaser, let sit for about 20 seconds and then spray water lightly on the motor, after I see that the motor is dirt free, I'll quickly take a leaf blower and blow the motor dry.
 
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