Frustrated. Tons of swirl marks even after wet sanding, 105 and 205 with DA.

[vrships]

I just don't understand how this would not work out.

Initially I wanted to remove the orange peel on my door so I decided a wet sanding but realized I only have 3000 grit. I did sand the whole door anyway and compound and polish with 105 and 205 with Griot's G9. It didn't solve the orange peel at all ( guess I'll need 1500 and 2000 after all) and installed tons of swirl marks (or they were there but the 2 stage didn't remove them at all).

The pads I used are completely new. LC orange for 105 and white for 205, recommended speed setting. This is one of my first time using this DA but I' ve been watching videos for years so I guess I didn't make any big mistakes.

I was moving slow, avoiding the top of body ridges and try not to push too hard (but it's the door so i have to put some pressure on it). But then I noticed this panel is almost curved everywhere, the foam pad tended to "float" above the paint on a lot of areas or at least the pressure wasn't enough even to remove the haziness of the wet sanding. So I decided to push harder, and had to push really hard near some ridges where the pad seems just wouldn't touch (How could this be possible?). I was pretty sure no paint was burnt, but even after all of these, I expected to at least see some of the old swirls gone instead of putting new ones.

So is it common that the wet sanding requires extending compounding? Could the swirl marks be from wet sanding(I moved in straight lines but did 3 or 4 directions)?

Will the compound and polishing with DA and correct pads install new swirl marks? Could it be possible that i used too little compound ( Sometimes I run the machine one more time after the compound become almost fully transparent. Is this bad or it just makes no difference)

Is the swirls from too much pressure? Then how can I force the pad the to conform to the curved panel?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Rotary buffer + Wool pad

 

[acuRAS82]

Are you sure the pad was spinning when you applied pressure on these non-stop curves?

What type of car/paint? Maybe a yellow pad would have done more, but go with Mike’s suggestions, a yellow might not do it with that DA?

 

[Dr Oldz]

Agreed with a rotary and wool pad. While you can(and I have proven) remove sanding marks with a foam pad, quality compound, DA and a foam pad, it just takes wayyyyyyyyy to long.

 

[vrships]

Are you sure the pad was spinning when you applied pressure on these non-stop curves?

What type of car/paint? Maybe a yellow pad would have done more, but go with Mike’s suggestions, a yellow might not do it with that DA?

Yeah I was constantly monitoring the movement. Only when I intentionally tilted it to use the edge to buff did it stop.

The panel was just repainted but that was clearly a poor job ( They probably have even sanded it with <1000 grit)

I am using Lake country hybrid so the one harder than orange is grey. I tried the grey on a different panel and I could tell it finishes better , but that panel was only sanded on small areas ..

I am having very limited pads and I don't have compressed air so I might need to try another time.

 

[vrships]

Rotary buffer + Wool pad

That might just be the answer but my wife won't allow me to invest in another machine if I don't get any good results out of what I have.

Any strong cutting foam pad i can try

 

[vrships]

Agreed with a rotary and wool pad. While you can(and I have proven) remove sanding marks with a foam pad, quality compound, DA and a foam pad, it just takes wayyyyyyyyy to long.

i had thought 105 itself should be strong enough for 3000 grit marks. Is there a temporary solution before getting a rotary? like a wool pad for DA or microfibre pad ?

 

[acuRAS82]

i had thought 105 itself should be strong enough for 3000 grit marks. Is there a temporary solution before getting a rotary? like a wool pad for DA or microfibre pad ?

I’ll let others chime in but I would try the grey pad with 105 in the meantime. It may take awhile, keep the DA/pad moving so you don’t burn through but hopefully you’ll see them come out. You may have hard paint.

You can also try wool on DA if grey doesn’t work out; which I assume you would need to purchase the wool.

I personally would probably try to get the painter to fix it for no/low cost. And worst case get a ship to buff out that door; mostly because I wouldn’t want to purchase a rotary for one time use.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Where you located?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I just don't understand how this would not work out.

Initially I wanted to remove the orange peel on my door so I decided a wet sanding but realized I only have 3000 grit. I did sand the whole door anyway and compound and polish with 105 and 205 with Griot's G9. It didn't solve the orange peel at all ( guess I'll need 1500 and 2000 after all) and installed tons of swirl marks (or they were there but the 2 stage didn't remove them at all).

Ouch. Doing all that work, removing perfectly good clearcoat and then having the paint still filled with swirls and scratches.


Ouch.


And you have read this article and looked at the pictures?

Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips

The pads I used are completely new. LC orange for 105 and white for 205, recommended speed setting. This is one of my first time using this DA but I've been watching videos for years so I guess I didn't make any big mistakes.

I was moving slow, avoiding the top of body ridges and try not to push too hard (but it's the door so i have to put some pressure on it).

But then I noticed this panel is almost curved everywhere, the foam pad tended to "float" above the paint on a lot of areas or at least the pressure wasn't enough even to remove the haziness of the wet sanding. So I decided to push harder, and had to push really hard near some ridges where the pad seems just wouldn't touch (How could this be possible?). I was pretty sure no paint was burnt, but even after all of these, I expected to at least see some of the old swirls gone instead of putting new ones.

With SHORT STROKE polishers you actual push down HARD. It's only LONG STROKE polishers that you only use LIGHT PRESSURE as it is the LONG STROKE that is doing the ABRADING.

And with BOTH of these types of polishers you're going to have to work at maintaining pad rotation.


I would have pushed down on the head of that tool with 15 to 20 pounds of downward pressure.

So is it common that the wet sanding requires extending compounding? Could the swirl marks be from wet sanding(I moved in straight lines but did 3 or 4 directions)?

We really need to see a picture. You need to LIGHT-UP the paint with some kind of light to show the swirls and then take a good picture.

The easy way to share a picture on a forum - Tapatalk App for your cell phone


As a person that shares a LOT of pictures in the forum world using the best way, which is to upload pictures to a gallery so the pictures have an actual cyber home with an actual cyber address, I completely understand that the majority of people don't know how to do this and don't have the patience or wherewithal to figure it out.


So with that said, here's the easy way, simply get the TapaTalk App on your phone. Links below for the type of phone you have.


Link for TapaTalk for iPhone


Link for TapaTalk from Google Play


I don't have a tutorial on how to then use the App but I figure it out and if I can do it - most of you should be able to look at the interface and with a little experimenting - figure it out.

Will the compound and polishing with DA and correct pads install new swirl marks?

Shouldn't. At least not with M105 and a foam pad.

Could it be possible that i used too little compound ( Sometimes I run the machine one more time after the compound become almost fully transparent. Is this bad or it just makes no difference)

Sounds like you need to tweak your technique.

First - I don't ever use, believe or endorse PEA SIZED DROPS or products. :laughing:




Here's how much M105 I would have put on the pad. NOTE: You use an AIO or a CLEANER/WAX LIKE A COMPOUND. Same process and same idea. Be careful which Gurus you follow.

How to correctly use an AIO or Cleaner/Wax by Mike Phillips


I type about this topic all the time so while I'm thinking about it here's a dedicated article on how to use a one-step cleaner/wax also called an AIO or All-in-One.

Just to note, an AIO and a Cleaner/Wax are they same thing or same category of product.


It's real simple....

You use a one-step cleaner/wax the same way you would use a compound or a polish.


That is, you use the product heavy or wet. Not PEA SIZED DROPS --> that's ridiculous. You need some amount of product simply to lubricate the surface AND have both enough abrasives and any other cleaning agents ON THE SURFACE working for you as you correct paint.

THEN DO THIS ---> CRANK THAT SUCKER UP TO THE 6 SPEED SETTING AN BUFF.


The problem you have now is you RISK buffing through the clearcoat layer of paint and exposing or uncovering the color coat of paint. You'll know when you turn your polisher over and see the color of the car on the face of the pad.

Is the swirls from too much pressure?

Normally - products that use GREAT abrasive technology like the Meguiar's M105 do NOT induce swirls into the paint unless it is butter-soft.

Back to - NEED a picture.

You need PRESSURE to push the abrasive INTO the paint to MAKE them take out little bites of paint. This is called LEVELING. This is how you remove or LEVEL the sanding marks so they visually disappear.

You would like any of my car detailing classes - I show you how to do ALL of this stuff and then LET YOU DO IT.

Then how can I force the pad the to conform to the curved panel?

Each of us has to find a way to make the tool we own do what we need it to do or work by hand - or get a different tool.

You're using a tool that is a FREE SPINNING RANDOM ORBITAL POLISHER. You're going to have to work at maintaining pad rotation for this type of buffing.


Me? If I'm sanding I'm using a rotary buffer and a wool cutting pad and I'm going to get in there and get the job over and do it fast. With a rotary you can GO UP ON EDGE that's a technique that enables you to use a HUGE pad to buff a TINY area of paint, like around the edges or INTO curved panels.

Like this,

I would try what I recommended above -that is get a CLEAN DRY foam cutting pad, place a good amount of M105 compound on it, spread it over a section of the door, then as you're buffing, bring the speed up to the 5-6 setting, press down 10 to 15 pounds of pressure against the head of the polisher and then start making slow, overlapping passes.


I feel for you man....


:dunno:

 

[vrships]

I am in Maryland but will probably move by the end of the year

 

[acuRAS82]

I am in Maryland but will probably move by the end of the year

Move to Florida to get help from Mike?!?

 

[vrships]

Thanks so much Mike. This is a lot to take in.

And you have read this article and looked at the pictures?

Yeah. I am aware of it. < 3mils, thinner than a hair... A few panels of this car have been repainted so I figured they might be thicker. The paint was already savaged anyway so I some how treated it as a test project.

With SHORT STROKE polishers you actual push down HARD. It's only LONG STROKE polishers that you only use LIGHT PRESSURE as it is the LONG STROKE that is doing the ABRADING.

And with BOTH of these types of polishers you're going to have to work at maintaining pad rotation.


I would have pushed down on the head of that tool with 15 to 20 pounds of downward pressure.

Is 15 tWe really need to see a picture. You need to LIGHT-UP the paint with some kind of light to show the swirls and then take a good picture.o 20 pounds to much? I read most videos would let the weight of the machine do the work on a horizontal panel. On a vertical panel it's hard to control but 15 would definity stall or slow this GG G9 I have. The problem is I don't know if that is too slow to continue the work (the sound is always as loud). And sometimes I find the throw motion stops but the pad keeps spinning which makes it like a rotary. Is this a possible mechanism on a DA？ Or it's just may illusion...

We really need to see a picture. You need to LIGHT-UP the paint with some kind of light to show the swirls and then take a good picture.

View attachment 70279
I felt these are sand marks. Either from me or from the paint work, and they are acompanied by a lot of swirls, too. They appeared quite alike on this portion of the panel (The spot and streaks are just uncleaned polishing oils)

Sounds like you need to tweak your technique.

First - I don't ever use, believe or endorse PEA SIZED DROPS or products.

I did use a lot more material than 3 drops. If I do drops, i'll put 6-8. But usually not as much as in your picture. If I put that much, either 105 or 205, it would be slinged everywhere over the car which I have to wipe over and over again..

Each of us has to find a way to make the tool we own do what we need it to do or work by hand - or get a different tool.

You're using a tool that is a FREE SPINNING RANDOM ORBITAL POLISHER. You're going to have to work at maintaining pad rotation for this type of buffing.

I am having more trouble making this work today. So basically I find as long as I am buffing a concave region, the swirls there are simply intact. This is very weird because I made sure the pad was constantly in touch with the panel, and both the throw and spin were on. I also made sure that the buffing time on these areas were a little longer than flatter areas.

This time I did this on the other door, which shouldn't have any sand marks, only swirls. The panel is shaped as in 1. The pad is soft and flex a lot but perhaps there's still some gap just I couldn't see. The picture is also attached.
View attachment 70280
View attachment 70281


The result is that swirls start to show up about 8 "(5.5" pad)away from the ridge, and gradually increases up to the ridge. I left half of the panel for comparison and I can tell that swirls near the edge fully remained (it's almost swirl-less out of this range). I put a little bit more pressure when approaching the edge so the pad touches the paint, but I am thinking because the panel is shaped like this, when the center of the pad touches the panel, the outer rims are pressed too hard so the spin always slows down, making if ineffective.

I am also doing (2) in the previous diagram, to let part of the pad hang so the other part can make a good contact. But this didn't work either! The thing that really bothers me is that the buffing starts getting ineffective even far away from the ridge, when the panel is just very slightly curved. I mean, at least half of the areas on the car are shaped like this!

So here are my thoughts:

1. is it true that free rotation DA is just ineffective at these places?
2. So eventually I have to get either a forced rotation DA, or a rotary to correct the whole car?
3. Or a < 3 inch mini buffer. Only do the nearly flat panels with DA and this means I'll be using the mini polisher to do the majority of the area?

Oh by the way, I am using GG G9 but with a boss backing plate which is not designed for it but fits perfectly well. Can this cause any problem? Logically I can't see any incompabilities.

Right now I only have LC hybrid 1.25" thick pads while the BOSS pads are only 1/3" I remember. Could this cause the problem?
But I think thicker pads flex much more easily and exert less leverage on the spindle, and hence less stall. Could I be wrong on this?

 

[vrships]

Haha that would be an option. I just feel the local detailer around me thinks and cares not even as much as I do. Let alone the professional in this forum.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

T

Right now I only have LC hybrid 1.25" thick pads while the BOSS pads are only 1/3"

Could this cause the problem?


But I think thicker pads flex much more easily and exert less leverage on the spindle, and hence less stall. Could I be wrong on this?

Thicker pads will conform to curved panels better. LC Hybrid pads are THICK. Are you using 6.5" or 5.5"

They key is pad rotation. When buffing are the pads rotating?

Also - when buffing curved panels - don't do crosshatch pattern - just move the polisher back and forth along the length of the panel, not into the curved portion. Hard to explain with keyboard.


What is this car you're working on?

 

[vrships]

Thicker pads will conform to curved panels better. LC Hybrid pads are THICK. Are you using 6.5" or 5.5"

They key is pad rotation. When buffing are the pads rotating?

Also - when buffing curved panels - don't do crosshatch pattern - just move the polisher back and forth along the length of the panel, not into the curved portion. Hard to explain with keyboard.


What is this car you're working on?

Thanks, Mike.

I am using 5.5". But I just bought another batch of BOSS pads, which almost everyone recommends for G9. They are just 5/8" thick. I am afraid this s gonna make my work even harder.

I was doing a single-line buffing most of the time on the most concave section. But because it's shaped like this, a large part of the pad was just hanging in the air. Is it OK? I really don't want too much sling to the surrounding areas.

View attachment 70284

It is a 2012 mustang, UA black. I am gonna sell this car so it doesn't bother me that much the unsuccessful correction. But the real car i'll work on in the future has even more and tighter conavely curved areas. I really hope next time i don't mess it up on that brand new softer european clearcoat.