Griot's Garage DA vibration too much, now what?

Ike21

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Hey all,

So, I invested in a true workhorse DA, the GG 6" DA back in November, and just had a chance to use it on paint for the first time a few days ago. I'm super impressed with its power! I've used rotaries years ago, and for a DA, I have to say, the GG with a heavy cut pad and M105 does come somewhat close to the level of cut you can achieve when compounding with a rotary. I was doing a finish restoration on my minister's wife's 06' Camry as a gift, and the GG + new pads probably saved me 2 days of work vs using a cheap old DA and a "wax spreader".

However, when using what I thought was the correct amount of pressure and high speeds (5.5 to 6 for compounding with m105 on 4" yellow and orange and 6.5" orange pads, and 4.5 to 5.5 for polishing with m205 on 4" and 6.5" white pads), I was getting a huge amount of vibration out of the machine, which of course meant that most of that shock had to be absorbed by the tissue on my fingers and lower arms, and transmitted through each joint from the fingers up to the rotator cuffs. At first, I was getting the classic numbness and tingling in my hands associated with using a machine with high vibration levels, so I didn't think much of it. However, after two days of compounding and polishing, my hands swelled to the point where I couldn't even close them completely, an old wrist injury got re-aggravated, and the tissue in my forearms swelled, to the point of causing "tennis elbow" like symptoms, where the nerve passing through the elbow was actually pinched from swelling. Fast forward three days later, and the swelling has died down somewhat with anti-inflammatories, but I am still in pain.


Now, I ended up breaking it out of the box and checking the operation when I recieved the package from AG back in November. As it turned out, a cardboard stay had fallen away and left the rotary sitting at an angle on its backing plate for who knows how long before it arrived at my house. So, it warped the plate fairly badly. I contacted Griot's CS, and they gave me absolutely stellar service, replacing the plate no questions asked. The machine itself seems to be very well balanced, but of course, add in the forces of polishing that your arms have to react to, and you get a virtual jackhammer.

So, has anyone else experienced this kind of injury from using the GG, or other powerful DAs? Could it be my technique possibly? I was bearing down quite a bit throughout, trying to get used to the pressure required to keep the pad going at at least 1 RPS, but was stalling the pad at times. Also, could product application, pad priming, etc. make a noticeable effect on the net vibrations the user receives in the end?

Could it be that I'm just out of shape? I haven't detailed a car in a while, plus, I don't work in an active environment any longer, where those muscles are constantly challenged. I'm young still, but have had some forearm and wrist injuries from sports that tend to come back to haunt me in situations like this. It seems like this setup as is might cause some permanent damage if I continue to use it.

I've read that the Flex 3401 is better regarding the vibrations. I was hoping to ask some of you on here how much less vibration the machine transmits to the body.

It's ironic, as I was about to invest in one, but couldn't justify the extra $200 over the GG in my occasional-use situation. Wish I had read about this issue sooner, it just seems that nobody talks about it on here. Now I understand why GG is alone in this class in upgrading a standard "PC" style DA with an 850 watt motor! I wish there was a way to exchange it, but after 3 or 4 months of ownership, I'm guessing it's too late. :(
 
I haven't used a GG 6". But I did just recently purchase the flex and used it for the first time last weekend. I applied some heavy pressure when using the machine for a couple of hours. The next day I noticed my left forearm and wrist area were very sore and my hand had a slight tremor when holding objects. This symptoms stayed with me for a few days. So I'm not sure if my technique was incorrect or I wasn't use to the vibrations. But I can tell you the Flex still has a good amount of vibration. I'm not positive you will get any relief by purchasing a Flex.
 
Hey all,

So, I invested in a true workhorse DA, the GG 6" DA back in November, and just had a chance to use it on paint for the first time a few days ago. I'm super impressed with its power! I've used rotaries years ago, and for a DA, I have to say, the GG with a heavy cut pad and M105 does come somewhat close to the level of cut you can achieve when compounding with a rotary. I was doing a finish restoration on my minister's wife's 06' Camry as a gift, and the GG + new pads probably saved me 2 days of work vs using a cheap old DA and a "wax spreader".

However, when using what I thought was the correct amount of pressure and high speeds (5.5 to 6 for compounding with m105 on 4" yellow and orange and 6.5" orange pads, and 4.5 to 5.5 for polishing with m205 on 4" and 6.5" white pads), I was getting a huge amount of vibration out of the machine, which of course meant that most of that shock had to be absorbed by the tissue on my fingers and lower arms, and transmitted through each joint from the fingers up to the rotator cuffs. At first, I was getting the classic numbness and tingling in my hands associated with using a machine with high vibration levels, so I didn't think much of it. However, after two days of compounding and polishing, my hands swelled to the point where I couldn't even close them completely, an old wrist injury got re-aggravated, and the tissue in my forearms swelled, to the point of causing "tennis elbow" like symptoms, where the nerve passing through the elbow was actually pinched from swelling. Fast forward three days later, and the swelling has died down somewhat with anti-inflammatories, but I am still in pain.


Now, I ended up breaking it out of the box and checking the operation when I recieved the package from AG back in November. As it turned out, a cardboard stay had fallen away and left the rotary sitting at an angle on its backing plate for who knows how long before it arrived at my house. So, it warped the plate fairly badly. I contacted Griot's CS, and they gave me absolutely stellar service, replacing the plate no questions asked. The machine itself seems to be very well balanced, but of course, add in the forces of polishing that your arms have to react to, and you get a virtual jackhammer.

So, has anyone else experienced this kind of injury from using the GG, or other powerful DAs? Could it be my technique possibly? I was bearing down quite a bit throughout, trying to get used to the pressure required to keep the pad going at at least 1 RPS, but was stalling the pad at times. Also, could product application, pad priming, etc. make a noticeable effect on the net vibrations the user receives in the end?

Could it be that I'm just out of shape? I haven't detailed a car in a while, plus, I don't work in an active environment any longer, where those muscles are constantly challenged. I'm young still, but have had some forearm and wrist injuries from sports that tend to come back to haunt me in situations like this. It seems like this setup as is might cause some permanent damage if I continue to use it.

I've read that the Flex 3401 is better regarding the vibrations. I was hoping to ask some of you on here how much less vibration the machine transmits to the body.

It's ironic, as I was about to invest in one, but couldn't justify the extra $200 over the GG in my occasional-use situation. Wish I had read about this issue sooner, it just seems that nobody talks about it on here. Now I understand why GG is alone in this class in upgrading a standard "PC" style DA with an 850 watt motor! I wish there was a way to exchange it, but after 3 or 4 months of ownership, I'm guessing it's too late. :(

I bought the Rupes (15) in part because it is smooth! Yes, it really is. Moreover, you don't need to give it pressure even when compounding. (Watch Mike Phillips' video specific to the Rupes.) Now it is a bit pricey, and it takes a bit of practice to get the skill set down (on curved surfaces), but if you want smooth, this one's got it!

<TED>
 
unfortunately, the traditional PC-style DA's vibrate and that's the nature of them. I don't hold onto to it tightly (towards the bottom) when polishing/compounding and put the pressure (when needed) towards to the head/top (if you hold onto it to tight you will feel all the vibration). you can try using gloves though I've never tried them myself, it may or may not help reduce the feeling of the vibration. megs has a new DA coming out and it's suppose to be really smooth and it has a longer traditional rotary body and you can always use the GG6 with a smaller pad set-up. i would wait and see reviews on it first though before purchasing and see if it's worth it ($200+). i'm sure plenty of people on here will give their honest feedback (pro's & con's) soon enough. IMO, i would still keep the GG6, it's one heck of a machine and there's really nothing much it can't tackle with the right pads/polishes/compounds these days. good luck...

meguiars-mt300-dual-action-polisher-coming-soon-11.gif
 
I bought the Rupes (15) in part because it is smooth! Yes, it really is. Moreover, you don't need to give it pressure even when compounding. (Watch Mike Phillips' video specific to the Rupes.) Now it is a bit pricey, and it takes a bit of practice to get the skill set down (on curved surfaces), but if you want smooth, this one's got it!

<TED>


I agree, super smooth, well balanced.

I own Rupe 3" Duetto and 15. No aches, pains, swollen fingers, sore wrists.
 
Ouch! My hands are getting pretty bad as well as far as dealing with a lot of vibrations. I try to stick with the smooth rotary for as much of the compounding or polishing as I can before pulling out the Porter Cable. I'm really interesting in seeing reviews for just how smooth the new Meguiar's MT300 polisher is, it could be the one to go with. Rupes is out of my price range, but would probably be the easiest on the hands. I spent a few days working with the Flex 3401. The vibrations bothered me enough to where I would rather just work with the rotary. Hopefully we will be hearing a bunch of reviews for the MT300 when they start shipping out.
 
I have sold my three Griots 6" machines and now have the older Megs g100v2 , Rupes 21 , older PC , Rupes LR75 and LR75e. For vibration free correction you won't beat the Rupes machines IMO. I did have the chance to do a test spot with the MT300 and it was comparable to the older Megs machine IMO. So if I was looking for the smoothest da machine it would be a Rupes followed by a MT300 . If you keep a eye on the face book detailer trading pages you can even some find deals on used Rupes 15 and 21's
 
I have found that the more firm of a grip you try to maintain the worse the vibration is on your joints.

You've gotta let the machine move around a little and ensure that the pad is centered on the backing plate (if you weren't already).

I use a loose grip but maintain downwards pressure on the head.

Also - do you use yours with the handle? I find that holding the head directly without the handle attached is also easier on the joints.
 
Here is a video I made of my Rupes a few days ago for no particular reason. One hand. You can see how smooth and easy to control it is.

http://youtu.be/-8oECqtEBsg

I can't use a regular DA anymore - except on small areas with small pads. It just beats me up and I'm essentially lazy. Rupes makes the work much easier. It's worth the extra $$$.

I'm sure the Megs machine is nice, but the main Rupes advantage is that you don't have to use downward pressure (basically) and just have to guide the machine. The downward pressure is what beats you up.

If your going to spend for the Megs, I'd just spend the extra and get the Rupes. I'm mean, your going to spend HOURS with that thing in your hands. You want the most user friendly experience IMHO for those hours. Never skimp on tools that you use a lot - always buy the best.
 
Didn't read everything in your post Ike, but what stands out BIG TIME is you said you were running at 5.5~6.0. That's just too fast for compounding with that machine, especially as you move to smaller pads. :eek:

Usually you can do everything at 4.5~5, maybe 5.5 here and there. Now with the little Rupes (the Duetto) that puppy tends to need to run darned near wide open all the time. It's just not as powerful in keeping up the pad rotation as the GG6.

Honestly, I find that the Flex actually vibrates more than the GG6.

The 'trick' as some have said already is not to get a death grip on the machine. Just old it with one hand at the back and place your other hand over the head. Sure it can use a bit of (up to 15 lbs) down pressure, but you can do that with an almost open hand. That's where the Flex however is tricky as if you tilt it a couple degrees one way and it goes off to the right, tilt it just a few degrees opposite and it'll take off to the left. I find with that puppy I'd rather hold it left and right (parallel to my body) than outward like other buffers. Of course you can't always do that, but it makes it easier to control none the less. ;)
 
I noticed the same with my Griot's 6" the first couple times I used it, I blew it off as needing to improve my technique. The last time I used it, I switched to 5" pads and also improved my technique, one or both lessened the vibration considerably, but still noticed some vibration. I guess what some are saying is true, just the nature of the beast.
 
Honestly, I find that the Flex actually vibrates more than the GG6.

The 'trick' as some have said already is not to get a death grip on the machine. Just old it with one hand at the back and place your other hand over the head. Sure it can use a bit of (up to 15 lbs) down pressure, but you can do that with an almost open hand. That's where the Flex however is tricky as if you tilt it a couple degrees one way and it goes off to the right, tilt it just a few degrees opposite and it'll take off to the left. I find with that puppy I'd rather hold it left and right (parallel to my body) than outward like other buffers. Of course you can't always do that, but it makes it easier to control none the less. ;)

I'm surprised you feel that the Flex vibrates more than the GG6, but I completely agree with you about how you hold the Flex. IMO it's the best way to completely control the machine at all times. (If I'm understanding what you wrote correctly)

I also think it's a bad idea for someone to learn using the Flex, unless of course they have someone watching over them that knows what they're doing. Some bad habits can be formed--although sometimes the flex will let you know by walking around on you!
 
Thin foam pads helped a lot to decrease the vibration on my GC6.
 
Hey Ike,

Sorry about the vibration problems you are having. I believe there is something wrong with your machine. I've had mine for a year now and have experienced very little vibration. I even use one hand with no trouble in certain situations. I do make sure the pad is accurately attached to the DA & try to make sure the machine is in the right position for the applicable use. Not saying you don't, just stating a fact. Another thing, I never "stall" my machine, no need, there is enough power there and some to spare. I keep a light touch and proper speeds for the job, only applying extra pressure on those infrequent occasions. I would talk to Griot's and explain you problem in depth. Something's not right. Good luck and take care.

Peace,

Darrin
 
Just saw the original post is nearly a year old. Hope things were resolved, or at the very least this helps others.

Peace,

Darrin
 
I recognize that this is an old thread, and that the OP has not been around for a while, but I have to share my experience in hopes of it helping someone else.

I’ve struggled with nerve impingements in my arms for a good portion of my life. They really started to have a dramatic impact on me when I was in my early 20’s. At this time, I was working professionally at a hot rod shop, using my hands and arms to build cars. In my free time I was doing body work on my own cars and rock climbing 3-4 times a week. In my case, this was a recipe for disaster. My arms would become basically unusable. The pain at times seemed unbearable. My nights were sleepless, and the most menial of tasks proved difficult. Carrying groceries, using the phone, typing- they all proved painful. After trying all sorts of exercises, pain and anti-inflammatory meds, and any other widget I could find, I decided to give up rock climbing and opted for a career change, in lieu of surgery, or further medical diagnosis. I don’t like the idea of going under the knife as I’ve had a number of friends over the years come out worse than better.

The following years were a mixed bag of results. It took almost a year for the numbness and pain to go away in a meaningful sense. After that, a rough weekend, a house project, or a detail would send me back into temporary hell. Sometimes something as simple as using my phone while lying in bed on vacation for a weekend would be enough repetition. Fast forward a few more years and I picked up a GG6 to add to my detailing arsenal. I did a number of completes the first year I had this machine, and each and every one would send me to hell for a week. I later purchased the flex and found some improvement, but not enough to not have a lasting reminder of the work I had been doing.

What I’ve learned in my 30’s—Buy yourself a Boss or a Rupes. I have the Boss, and it is by far the best machine I have ever used with regard to my arms, and pain. It is also a correction beast. The vibration is very low when compared to other high dollar machines, and there is no comparison to the GG6 and similar. The other important aspect is that the machine requires very little down force, and does not require me to “fight” the tool. Although I have incredible grip strength these days, if I have to squeeze and fight something for a long period of time, it greatly exacerbates my problem. When it comes to vibration, if you start to feel numbness, or tingling in your arms STOP! Walk away, take a break, get something to eat and let your arms recover. If you are really hurting, you need to let your arms recover before going back in inflaming the tendon more. After trying every snake oil, and whizbang I could find, the best recommendation I can make for therapy and strengthening is the Theraband Flexbar. The Flexbar comes in three different strengths, denoted by color. I started with the green (mid strength) and found it to be the right starting point. There are a number of exercise that can be done to help, and I’ve never found anything that stretches that tendon like the Flexbar. When I am on top of my exercises I can do a couple full corrections without batting an eye. If I’ve been lazy in my therapy, I can really feel it. Best of luck, and feel free to let me know if you have any additional questions.
 
It's funny, well not funny--but I felt similar pain to the OP last year when I got the bug again to start detailing with my GG6. I bought it in 2012 I think ?

I corrected a friend's ride and remember being so fatigued and arms hurting from all the vibration. I used it at 4.5 MAX, and I had pains afterwards and soreness for a couple of days. I said to myself, "i could never do this for a living."

After reading this thread, and hearing how the BOSS and others like Flex or Rupes actually is softer than the GG6, I decided to bite the bullet and get one of the more 'high end' machines. I have my BOSS 21 waiting to be used soon...

But it is pretty wild to think about the GG6 and if I had really had to use it everyday. I think also, improper use on my end may be the case back then. I would 'push' down really hard and 'fight the machine' almost like you said.

These machines do the work for you and you just have to let it work for longer times. My impatience forced me to not do that.

I think I will have a better go around this time with the boss. ;)

Love this site!
 
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