Gyeon Mohs really sucks (photo)

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aquarian

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Have used Cquartz UK about 3 years ago on this particular car and I thought it was time to try something different. Well, first try it wasn’t successful as the surface area became cloudy/hazy right after I applied the second coat. Please see my other thread about this issue. Then, the second time around, after reposhied the area with Essence, I applied Mohs again and immediately wiped off within 1min. And guess what, the gloss from Essence is almost gone and all of a sudden I am seeing tons and tons of lint coming out from my Gyeon microfiber towel. See photo.

View attachment 60511


It seems Mohs is creating a lot of static on the surface and for some reason this brand new, only washed once, microfiber towel decided to give up? This is ridiculous. You can see from the photo that the individual fibers on the towel are all sticking up like crazy. I then decided to coat the coated area with Cquartz UK again and with wiping everything is still as glossy as it should. I am not seeing tons of lintimg when wiping Cquartz compares to Mohs.

Has anyone experienced the same?
 
Could be incompatibility with Essence. Did you wipe down with some sort of prep wipe after essence? A low nap towel tends to work better when leveling out coatings.
 
I hope this is an application/process issue because I just spent good money on Mohs and was planning on using it this week. Good luck.
 
I don't think it is incompatibility with Essence - at least it wasn't in my experience. This is most likely from incorrect application of Mohs with temperature/humidity being a factor I bet. I found that Mohs has been fairly easy to apply across the board, but one has to pay attention to the flashing. All coatings will flash at different times depending upon the temperature and humidity, as well as thickness of the application. With Mohs especially, I'd start in a very small section and directly observe the flashing. A thin application is essential. During my first use -- and towards the end of applying it -- I got careless and did half the hood at once. Instantly regretted it since it flashed and I was unable to soft buff the area. Had to polish the hood and reapply.

Questions:
1. What was the temperature outside?
2. What was the temperature of your paint?
3. What was the humidity?
4. What size sections did you establish? (I now do no more than 2x2 or at most 3x3.)
5. Did you use short nap MF? (It looks like you were buffing when the coating was tacky -- possibly pulling fibers. If you're using Gyeon MF towels, I believe those are designed for wiping polish and doing the "final wipe" before coatings.)
6. Did you have a MF system such that you used one for initial buffing/spreading and another one for final buff?
7. How old was the bottle of Mohs?
8. Were you holding the bottle in your hand or in your pocket while applying and buffing? Heating, even body temp, can be bad.

It's also possible that you just had a bad bottle/batch. But, given my so many uses of Mohs as well as having seen results from many others who have used Mohs, it's more likely to be an application error.
 
Thanks so much for your detailed reply. A few days ago I posted in a different thread on my first Moh's problem https://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/116211-gyeon-mohs-problem.html

The car has been sitting in the garage for more than 2 weeks so I believe whatever the temp is in the garage, should be the temp of the car. I was only working on the rear bumper area only about 2x3 (the rear black section of an R8 V10)

You may be right, I believe the fibers were getting pulled from static coated surface. The bottle is brand new and I wasn't holding the bottle while I was applying the coating. As I mentioned in a different thread, the temp is relatively low (Oct weather in Seattle) and the humidity not too high.

Cquartz UK in my opinion is a much much user friendly coating to use. I am sure it was more of a user error but I cannot think of a procedure that I did wrong (perhaps using the wrong towel to wipe?). The Gyeon towel has short and long nap and that still created the crazy amount of linting while wiping (with the cloudiness/haziness after wiping).

I know you are trying to find out if the temp of the liquid is too high therefore it started flashing right away and causing difficulty wiping off, but being in the 50's in my garage I can't image working in the middle of summer in Florida with Mohs.....

kevincwelch said:
I don't think it is incompatibility with Essence - at least it wasn't in my experience. This is most likely from incorrect application of Mohs with temperature/humidity being a factor I bet. I found that Mohs has been fairly easy to apply across the board, but one has to pay attention to the flashing. All coatings will flash at different times depending upon the temperature and humidity, as well as thickness of the application. With Mohs especially, I'd start in a very small section and directly observe the flashing. A thin application is essential. During my first use -- and towards the end of applying it -- I got careless and did half the hood at once. Instantly regretted it since it flashed and I was unable to soft buff the area. Had to polish the hood and reapply.

Questions:
1. What was the temperature outside?
2. What was the temperature of your paint?
3. What was the humidity?
4. What size sections did you establish? (I now do no more than 2x2 or at most 3x3.)
5. Did you use short nap MF? (It looks like you were buffing when the coating was tacky -- possibly pulling fibers. If you're using Gyeon MF towels, I believe those are designed for wiping polish and doing the "final wipe" before coatings.)
6. Did you have a MF system such that you used one for initial buffing/spreading and another one for final buff?
7. How old was the bottle of Mohs?
8. Were you holding the bottle in your hand or in your pocket while applying and buffing? Heating, even body temp, can be bad.

It's also possible that you just had a bad bottle/batch. But, given my so many uses of Mohs as well as having seen results from many others who have used Mohs, it's more likely to be an application error.
Click to expand...
 
I can't imagine applying the product in Florida either. Too hot for me. However, I have applied Mohs when it has been very humid and relatively hot ( 90s).

The other thing I forgot to mention was that after applying and doing your buffing, you really need to look at the surface from multiple angles with multiple light sources. I have found high spots and areas that I didn't buff adequately when looking from different angles and even when using a different type of light source, especially sunlight. I think this is one of the things that makes applying Coatings relatively difficult when compared to waxes or sealants. There are just so many opportunities to leave high spots that cannot be corrected.

My suggestion is that you try again. Polish an area of your car that is relatively in conspicuous, and make sure you have fully prepped the surface with some kind of IPA or even better, something like Gtechnic Panel Wipe. Apply a very thin layer (a few dots) on the microfiber applicator, and spread very evenly in a cross hatch pattern over a two by two section. Buff with one short nap microfiber towel and then do a final buff with another short nap microfiber towel. Observe the section from multiple different angles with multiple light sources and quickly buff the highspots. Then let it sit for several hours and check your work.

(Sent via my mobile device...)
 
I have not used MOHS personally (yet), but it is always a bit bothersome when someone claims a product is garbage after trying to use it once. No 2 products are the same, so they should not be treated the same. There are so many variables that will effect how a particular product behaves in a given environment that it should be known that you will need to do some trial and error to lock down the application process, especially if you are working in warmer or cooler climates than what is "optimal".

Perhaps the low temperature is the root of the issue... many other coatings tend to be most user friendly around the 70-80F mark without high humidity. Lower temps and higher temps can lead to all sorts of hurdles that the user must adapt and determine how to get over them.

With low temps, the coating is likely not setting up nearly as quickly as it would in the "optimum temp range", for this reason it is not typically recommended to coat a vehicle when temps are say sub-55F (except CQuartz UK was actually designed for cooler temperatures though... hence the "UK" affiliation where they tend to have cooler climates).

I would recommend starting over and doing some proper testing. It seems the recommended wipe off window ranges from 30 seconds to 2 minutes, however in cooler temperatures it would not surprise me if you might be able to push that beyond 2 minutes. A gyeon rep would be able to help you out with that information.
 
Did u let essence cure?? I thought you had to wait at least an HR before you applied any coating over cure?

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Thanks for your reply. Can you explain the increase in static after the coating is being wiped off? Have you experienced something similar with other coatings?

I agree with you that the temp may be the root of the problem, but it also means that Mohs is definitely not as user friendly compared to CquartzUK. With lower temp the coating should ideally flash slower, therefore making wiping easier. But it wasn't the case with me. Also with Cquartz UK, after wiping the coating off the surface feels noticeably slicker compared to Mohs, which feels like bare paint after coating. Not sure if it has anything to do with being more static.

zmcgovern45 said:
I have not used MOHS personally (yet), but it is always a bit bothersome when someone claims a product is garbage after trying to use it once. No 2 products are the same, so they should not be treated the same. There are so many variables that will effect how a particular product behaves in a given environment that it should be known that you will need to do some trial and error to lock down the application process, especially if you are working in warmer or cooler climates than what is "optimal".

Perhaps the low temperature is the root of the issue... many other coatings tend to be most user friendly around the 70-80F mark without high humidity. Lower temps and higher temps can lead to all sorts of hurdles that the user must adapt and determine how to get over them.

With low temps, the coating is likely not setting up nearly as quickly as it would in the "optimum temp range", for this reason it is not typically recommended to coat a vehicle when temps are say sub-55F (except CQuartz UK was actually designed for cooler temperatures though... hence the "UK" affiliation where they tend to have cooler climates).

I would recommend starting over and doing some proper testing. It seems the recommended wipe off window ranges from 30 seconds to 2 minutes, however in cooler temperatures it would not surprise me if you might be able to push that beyond 2 minutes. A gyeon rep would be able to help you out with that information.
Click to expand...
 
Yup, because of my schedule I couldn't apply the coating right after Essence was used to polish the previously failed attempt of Mohs. It was about 3 hours in between.....

Cruzscarwash said:
Did u let essence cure?? I thought you had to wait at least an HR before you applied any coating over cure?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
 
aquarian said:
Thanks for your reply. Can you explain the increase in static after the coating is being wiped off? Have you experienced something similar with other coatings?

I agree with you that the temp may be the root of the problem, but it also means that Mohs is definitely not as user friendly compared to CquartzUK. With lower temp the coating should ideally flash slower, therefore making wiping easier. But it wasn't the case with me. Also with Cquartz UK, after wiping the coating off the surface feels noticeably slicker compared to Mohs, which feels like bare paint after coating. Not sure if it has anything to do with being more static.
Click to expand...

I stumbled across Mike's article on static electricity.

Static Electricity and Dust Attraction to your Car's Paint
 
aquarian said:
Thanks for your reply. Can you explain the increase in static after the coating is being wiped off? Have you experienced something similar with other coatings?

I agree with you that the temp may be the root of the problem, but it also means that Mohs is definitely not as user friendly compared to CquartzUK. With lower temp the coating should ideally flash slower, therefore making wiping easier. But it wasn't the case with me. Also with Cquartz UK, after wiping the coating off the surface feels noticeably slicker compared to Mohs, which feels like bare paint after coating. Not sure if it has anything to do with being more static.
Click to expand...

I have experienced tacky coatings many, many times. I assume this is what you are referring to, not "static".

Tackiness can be a result of several things... most commonly it is due to a coating that is still wet and not yet ready to wipe, or that has already begun to set and needed to be wiped sooner. Given your environment, I would assume it was the former rather than the latter.... but again, some testing on your part would help determine that.

For every coating we have ever applied (which was almost every vehicle I have worked on in the past 5 years), I always do a series of tests, typically on the trunk lid, to determine the optimal time for removal. This was most important when I worked in my garage at home and ambient conditions varied drastically both in terms of temperature and humidity. It was less of a concern when I moved into my shop that was climate controlled all year.

Again, I have not used Mohs, but Gyeon did just send me a Mohs kit along with several other products for testing/review, so if weather cooperates I will be applying it in the relatively near future.
 
I had Mohs out again yesterday doing some more testing with it. High heat high humidity in the garage here in Florida, it's a super smooth coating to apply, but I lengthened out the time I let it sit on the paint before buffing and this significantly increased how tacky it was to remove. If I buff it off more quickly after applying it within that 1 minute time period, I'm getting a much easier wipedown and slicker finish compared to both CQUK and Gyeon Prime, no issues with cloudiness or getting a clean wipedown. 3'x3' application area, no static buildup (didn't notice this or linting with the longer dwell time).

I'm also not being conservative with how much I'm loading up on the applicator pad, I prepped this time with HD Polish+, previously with Gyeon Primer with the same results, Gyeon Prep wipedown after polishing. So for me, when I buff it off within that 1 minute time period, this coating becomes more user friendly compared to CQUK and Prime. What I don't know yet is if that faster buff has a negative impact on Moh's ability to cure properly.
 
How many layers of Mohs did you apply? It's interesting that your experience is completely opposite than mine when my environment might actually be better than yours. So perhaps Mohs likes higher temp and humidity?

Loach said:
I had Mohs out again yesterday doing some more testing with it. High heat high humidity in the garage here in Florida, it's a super smooth coating to apply, but I lengthened out the time I let it sit on the paint before buffing and this significantly increased how tacky it was to remove. If I buff it off more quickly after applying it within that 1 minute time period, I'm getting a much easier wipedown and slicker finish compared to both CQUK and Gyeon Prime, no issues with cloudiness or getting a clean wipedown. 3'x3' application area, no static buildup (didn't notice this or linting with the longer dwell time).

I'm also not being conservative with how much I'm loading up on the applicator pad, I prepped this time with HD Polish+, previously with Gyeon Primer with the same results, Gyeon Prep wipedown after polishing. So for me, when I buff it off within that 1 minute time period, this coating becomes more user friendly compared to CQUK and Prime. What I don't know yet is if that faster buff has a negative impact on Moh's ability to cure properly.
Click to expand...
 
aquarian said:
How many layers of Mohs did you apply? It's interesting that your experience is completely opposite than mine when my environment might actually be better than yours. So perhaps Mohs likes higher temp and humidity?
Click to expand...

Two coats yesterday. First coat was a 1 minute dry time, really easy removal and it left a slick finish. Second coat at 4 minutes dry time, much more tackier wipedown. Second coat on another section with 30 second dry time, slightly tackier finish compared to the first coat, not anywhere near as bad as the 4 minute dry time section, easy wipedown.

Tonight after prepping the paint with HD Polish+, Essence, and Eraser - the Mohs section at three coats is less glossy compared to the Essence and Eraser side, by an average of 4 gloss units. This is taken right after applying the third coat, once Mohs cures longer I will recheck gloss readings. The paint is noticeably slicker on the non-coated side, but I will see a reduction of how tacky the paint feels the longer Mohs cures when I've been layering it. It's not as tacky feeling as CQUK and Prime even with extended dry times with additional coats.

The paint really likes that first coat with Mohs with a fresh suede. Even with a 4 minute dry time on the first coat it just melted into the paint and left a really easy wipedown. Layering is when I start running into tackiness issues and again this will be worse with longer dry times, or if the applicator pad on the first coat is too spent up with partially cured coating it can be slightly tacky to remove at this point. My problem is I don't have the color paint on this panel to be able to see any cloudiness with additional coats, it's not showing through the sun light but the glossmeter is certainly picking up a difference. More testing to come.
 
It seems like with additional coats you are also noticing a change in surface gloss and possible static buildup. The panel I was working on is piano black. Meaning, it's the black of black with nothing else in it. So, it was very easy for me to see a change in gloss after layering Mohs. I have a twin LED light on a stand and 2 handheld (Scangrip Sunmatch and Astro) so any change of clarity was easily observed.

Loach said:
Two coats yesterday. First coat was a 1 minute dry time, really easy removal and it left a slick finish. Second coat at 4 minutes dry time, much more tackier wipedown. Second coat on another section with 30 second dry time, slightly tackier finish compared to the first coat, not anywhere near as bad as the 4 minute dry time section, easy wipedown.

Tonight after prepping the paint with HD Polish+, Essence, and Eraser - the Mohs section at three coats is less glossy compared to the Essence and Eraser side, by an average of 4 gloss units. This is taken right after applying the third coat, once Mohs cures longer I will recheck gloss readings. The paint is noticeably slicker on the non-coated side, but I will see a reduction of how tacky the paint feels the longer Mohs cures when I've been layering it. It's not as tacky feeling as CQUK and Prime even with extended dry times with additional coats.

The paint really likes that first coat with Mohs with a fresh suede. Even with a 4 minute dry time on the first coat it just melted into the paint and left a really easy wipedown. Layering is when I start running into tackiness issues and again this will be worse with longer dry times, or if the applicator pad on the first coat is too spent up with partially cured coating it can be slightly tacky to remove at this point. My problem is I don't have the color paint on this panel to be able to see any cloudiness with additional coats, it's not showing through the sun light but the glossmeter is certainly picking up a difference. More testing to come.
Click to expand...
 
Like ZM stated earlier, 70-80 degrees seems to be the sweet spot for applying coatings. That said, maybe some aren't as finicky but I feel a good rule of thumb is this temp range for best results, along with staying inside and not getting wet, ofcoarse.

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