Hard paint vs soft paint and questions

[BrianMcLeod]

Couple of questions that I was thinking about is there such a thing hard paint and soft paint should it be called hard clear coat or soft clear coat since we are working on the clear coat?? Can some one clear this up for me

And is it better to have hard paint or soft??

What is a good wash mitt??

And suppose to clean a aluminum boat any thing to get off the heavy build up

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Couple of questions that I was thinking about is there such a thing hard paint and soft paint should it be called hard clear coat or soft clear coat since we are working on the clear coat?? Can some one clear this up for me

The clear coat portion of a moder car finish is paint, it's just clear paint. I cover this in the first section of my how to book.

And is it better to have hard paint or soft??

I cover this too. What you want is paint that's in the middle, not too hard that it's difficult to correct and not so soft that wiping it with a microfiber towel induces scratches. Somewhere in-between is a sweet spot. Now if paint manufactures could only all agree upon this sweet spot and then put this paint on new cars and a lot more than 2 mils.

For what it's worth, I really like the PPG Ceramiclear paints. They hold up very well and still polish very easy.

 

[Hoytman]

What you want is paint that's in the middle, not too hard that it's difficult to correct and not so soft that wiping it with a microfiber towel induces scratches. Somewhere in-between is a sweet spot.

I've often wondered how many painters actually think like you do, Mike? In terms of 'optimal' hardness for 'down the road maintenance'. I mean, the few painters I've ever talked with don't seem to look at paint polishing as most OCD detailers do and most that I've talked to are still stopping well short 5000 grit papers and still using wool for a large portion of their work. I'm just wondering how many painters think/care how 'workable' paint is once it leaves their shop? Isn't the paint they work with typically softer in the first place when they 'work it' to a shine and turn it over to a customer?

 

[BrianMcLeod]

Ok thanks I have the art of detailing book what would be the next one to get?

 

[Romans5.8]

I've often wondered how many painters actually think like you do, Mike? In terms of 'optimal' hardness for 'down the road maintenance'. I mean, the few painters I've ever talked with don't seem to look at paint polishing as most OCD detailers do and most that I've talked to are still stopping well short 5000 grit papers and still using wool for a large portion of their work. I'm just wondering how many painters think/care how 'workable' paint is once it leaves their shop? Isn't the paint they work with typically softer in the first place when they 'work it' to a shine and turn it over to a customer?

To be fair; you kind of have to look at your typical customer.

It's like lawn mower blades (I worked at a hardware store and sharpened them, among other things, in high school). Manufacturers now grind them to be a little duller; but last 4-5 years before becoming useless. (Even then, they'll replace them, with also pre-dull blades, instead of having them sharpened for just a couple of bucks) Why? Well, because you're supposed to sharpen them every year (for a typical home user, more often for large yard or commercial jobs). But, people don't. No matter how many times you say so in the manual, they won't. So the manufacturers cut the blade for the customer. People would be amazed when they would say their brand new mower doesn't cut as good as their old one (that they had been bringing me the blades every spring for), I'd have them bring me the blades, I'd sharpen them to an 'ideal' (but easier to dull) angle and sharpness, and they would be amazed at the improvement.

I think paint manufacturers think the same way. It needs to look good to the average joe, and be cost effective.

However, I would pay good money to have the factory put a couple extra coats of clear on my car! I wish there was an option for "extra thick clearcoat" when you ordered a car!

 

[cardaddy]

However, I would pay good money to have the factory put a couple extra coats of clear on my car! I wish there was an option for "extra thick clearcoat" when you ordered a car!

That is the best thing I think I've heard here ALL YEAR! :laughing:
(You have nooooooooo idea how easy my G35 not only swirls, but CHIPS like CRAZY!!!!!! )

 

[BillE]

It's like lawn mower blades (I worked at a hardware store and sharpened them, among other things, in high school). Manufacturers now grind them to be a little duller; but last 4-5 years before becoming useless. (Even then, they'll replace them, with also pre-dull blades, instead of having them sharpened for just a couple of bucks) Why? Well, because you're supposed to sharpen them every year (for a typical home user, more often for large yard or commercial jobs). But, people don't. No matter how many times you say so in the manual, they won't. So the manufacturers cut the blade for the customer. People would be amazed when they would say their brand new mower doesn't cut as good as their old one (that they had been bringing me the blades every spring for), I'd have them bring me the blades, I'd sharpen them to an 'ideal' (but easier to dull) angle and sharpness, and they would be amazed at the improvement.

Thanx for that insight! I thought it was just me thinking they were dull.

I needed to replace two blades last summer (MAJOR 'ker-chunks') and had to actually sharpen them prior to using them.

Bill

 

[Romans5.8]

Thanx for that insight! I thought it was just me thinking they were dull.

I needed to replace two blades last summer (MAJOR 'ker-chunks') and had to actually sharpen them prior to using them.

Bill

I don't know if it's every brand that does this; but I know the brand of blades we carried and several mower manufacturers do. I went to a training seminar on 'lawn and garden' by the Scotts company where they told us that. They explained it better than I did but, basically, if it's cut at a 'duller' angle it'll last longer. But if it's sharpened annually it'll perform much better.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I've often wondered how many painters actually think like you do, Mike? In terms of 'optimal' hardness for 'down the road maintenance'.

Drawing from my background of calling on body shops for about three years to do training on how to wetsand, cut and buff plus just the overall involvement in both this industry as as a "Car Guy" myself, I'd have to say none to very few.


Just in very general terms, most painters are very good at painting as that's also their passion. Some are also very passionate about how their "work" looks after the sanding and buffing is done but only on cool cars, not so much daily drivers or transportation cars which is what the masses own.

When it comes to working on daily drivers, for example someone gets in a fender bender with their Toyota Camry, after the painter sprays the paint the car is moved out of the paint booth and is turned over to the shop to finish out if there's to be any sanding and buffing and/or re-assembly of removed components.

I'm not sure most painter's give these cars another thought.

Now if a painter is working on something that showcases their talent and passion, then I still don't think they care or even consider the topic of paint hardness or paint softness but they do care more about how the end-results look.

Recently, one of my buddies and one of our local car guys Den on this forum, just had his 1969 GTO painted and Den took a great interest in learning how to polish paint correctly so ensure his GTO looks great.

Den's interest rubbed off on the shop owner and the painter and I'm confident this led to a better overall paint job.

Ok thanks I have the art of detailing book what would be the next one to get?

The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine is the updated version of The Art of Detailing and has more info and covers more tools.

The best is the ibook version as it has embedded videos and more links to online content.


The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine - at the iBookstore



I'm finishing a new book this week and actually have all but the last chapter written for my other new book. Then hopefully tomorrow I'm starting another new book and have two more on the to-do list.

However, I would pay good money to have the factory put a couple extra coats of clear on my car!

I wish there was an option for "extra thick clearcoat" when you ordered a car!

I'm a fan of this idea too although I think it would be difficult for an auto manufacture to build this ability into a production line.

 

[Romans5.8]

I'm a fan of this idea too although I think it would be difficult for an auto manufacture to build this ability into a production line.

Oh I'm sure they could figure it out! Even if they just 'pause' the car in the line and let the robot throw on an extra coat of clear (or 4). Hey- they figured out how to build electric cars in the same line as gas powered lines at the Ford Focus factory!

A buddy of mine retired from the Ford plant. He said they routinely run the cars back through paint. A guy stands outside of the paint booth and looks for runs, missed spots, etc., hits it with a palm sander, and sends the car back through paint. So surely- for some money, they could just fire it back through the paint booth for some more clear!

Of course the only thing I know less about than how to paint a car, is how to produce one on an assembly line. So what do I know! But I do know I'd pay for thicker clearcoat! Because the manufacturers aren't 'just going to do it' (Why would they when they can get away with post-it thin paint? Plus pressure from regulators).

 

[Hoytman]

I think paint manufacturers think the same way. It needs to look good to the average joe, and be cost effective.

I was refering to custom painters and body shops, not OEM.

 

[Romans5.8]

I was refering to custom painters and body shops, not OEM.

Well I was referring to the paint itself. The people who make the paint. They are probably more concerned with making sure the paint meets emission requirements, is cost effective, and looks good to the average joe; than being swirl-proof and ideal for someone who frequently polishes.

Though I think the body shops are no different. Most of their customers (and many times, not even themselves) don't know a swirl from a squirrel as Mike would say. Their customers are happy and they are making money. All except for those whack jobs who demand too much!

 

[Hoytman]

Drawing from my background...

When it comes to working on daily drivers...I'm not sure most painter's give these cars another thought.

Now if a painter is working on something that showcases their talent and passion...

Thanks for clarifying and making the distinction (based on your experience with forums) between daily drivers and custom work that I eluded to. I should have done a better job asking my question, but you understood what I was asking...refering to painters doing work on custom cars and caring about getting 'optimal paint hardness' for down the road showcar maintenance.

We all know that showcars also have to be cleaned and cared for over time and that over time, any time you touch the paint, there's a good chance of inflicting some type of paint marring. This marring is where my 'optimal paint hardness', even paint thickness, question came to mind.

 

[Hoytman]

With the above, another question comes to mind and surely someone else has thought of this before me...

Is there a means to test paint hardness? Perhaps that's a dumb question...but hey, we have a way to measure paint thickness, so surely there's a way to test for paint hardness.

I've done quite a bit of large electric panel and largemachinery painting using automotive paints. I can assure you that a mirror finish wasn't our goal, only good coverage. Mostly PPG products, but I've never painted a car. I've never had any formal, let alone proper, training of how to mix paints/hardeners correctly. That's was 20 years ago.

 

[FUNX650]

With the above, another question comes to mind and surely someone else has thought of this before me...

Is there a means to test paint hardness?

Perhaps that's a dumb question...but hey, we have a way to measure paint thickness,
so surely there's a way to test for paint hardness.

Hi Bill...

Here's a couple:

ASTM D1474...Tukon Hardness/Microhardness

ASTM D3363...Film Hardness/Pencil Test



Bob

 

[Hoytman]

Hi Bill...

Here's a couple:

ASTM D1474...Tukon Hardness/Microhardness

ASTM D3363...Film Hardness/Pencil Test



Bob

A couple of other things come to mind, Bob...

1. You always show up at the right time...

AND

2. You always have a good, reliable, and solid answer.:dblthumb2:

 

[Hoytman]

Another thought for, Mike...er...and...um, Bob perhaps. He he he...

...and this comes from my uncle that attended the Evansville get-together...and it's something I've thought about on different occasions.

Let me see if I can word this question/thought correctly...

As detailers, or at least aspiring detailers, how important is it, or how much would it benefit us to learn more about various paint systems? Obviously, a test spot will probably tell us everything we need to know. I'm just wondering how important, or at least what other, additional information/knowledge about different paint systems would benefit us as detailers.

My uncle, having done more painting and body work than actual detailing/paint correction work seems to think (and he only does this on his own cars as a hobby) that having knowledge about paint systems seemingly needing to be a must. He specifically mentioned waterborne systems, then various brands such as PPG, House of Color, etc.

My observation was that after watching Mike Phillips that my uncle was over thinking things, but still his questions cause me to wonder from time to time. You don't know what you don't know...

 

[FUNX650]

Another thought for, Mike...er...and...um, Bob perhaps. He he he...

...and this comes from my uncle that attended the Evansville get-together...and it's something I've thought about on different occasions.

Let me see if I can word this question/thought correctly...

As detailers, or at least aspiring detailers, how important is it, or how much would it benefit us to learn more about various paint systems? Obviously, a test spot will probably tell us everything we need to know. I'm just wondering how important, or at least what other, additional information/knowledge about different paint systems would benefit us as detailers.

My uncle, having done more painting and body work than actual detailing/paint correction work seems to think (and he only does this on his own cars as a hobby) that having knowledge about paint systems seemingly needing to be a must. He specifically mentioned waterborne systems, then various brands such as PPG, House of Color, etc.

My observation was that after watching Mike Phillips that my uncle was over thinking things, but still his questions cause me to wonder from time to time. You don't know what you don't know...

^^^Good questions/cerebrations Bill!!^^^


My ruminations on "knowing" paint systems:

-Each OEM is always after their 2-3 paint suppliers to come up with solutions,
so they have ways to "improve" their paint systems.

Improve:
-Paint kitchen processes (water-borne paints vs. solvent; powdercoating paints; etc.)
-Their bottom line (profits)
-Pleasing the customer (shiny paint; chromaticity variants)

This a never ending process. Trying to keep up with these constant changes is almost a losing battle.

IMHO:
Best to subscribe to PPG's, Sherwin Williams', Asko Noble's, etc., websites
in order to find out the latest and greatest paint technologies.
This will include the paints formulated specifically for the aftermarket as well.

Don't know if this helps or not. Hope so.



Bob

 

[SR99]

I've asked this before but no one knew the answer, so maybe someone following this thread will know.

Is the clearcoat used on wheels (and I'm sure there are variations) a special formulation that is somehow more durable, harsh chemical resistant, and/or more scratch-resistant than the clearcoat used on body panels? It sure seems to be, at least on the limited number of clearcoated wheel's I've had on personal vehicles. If so, maybe it's just too costly to cover body panels with?

 

[BrianMcLeod]

Thanks mike I kinda of want to get on wet sanding what would be my first step what do I need have any books on that? Etc thanks!