Haze after final polishing and waxing?

S

SL500

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Hello Everyone,

This is my first post to the site but I've been a long time purchaser of AG products and a student of the forums. In the last few days though, I've come up against a really weird problem that I've not experienced before and haven't seen pop up on the forum either.

I have a black 2009 MB SL550 that had the gamut of issues, particularly on the hood -- water deposits, swirls and RIDS. I was going to attack them with a range of Menzerna products, because they say they're specifically formulated for the hard Ceramiclear clear coat on Mercedes vehicles. I started off with the least aggressive product but after a few test passes, found I needed to begin with Menzerna PG1000 (Power Gloss), a fairly aggressive compound/polish, but not the most aggressive compound Menzerna sells. I then worked through SI1500 (Super Intensive Polish) and then a finishing polish, SF3500. I ended the regimen with Blackfire BlackICE as my LSP.

Each stage seemed to be going pretty well. I didn't detect any lingering swirls or compounding haze, although the water marks are still there but much fainter and greatly diminished. All that was fine, and it was looking pretty good, until I drove it the next morning and the hood was all hazed over! I didn't see this in my garage, even with a couple 200 watt light fixtures!

Soon as I got it back home I stripped the BlackICE off with CarPro Eraser. Then I just tried using Wolfgang Paintwork Polish Enhancer to see if the wax somehow left a residue. No, that didn't do anything. So, I went back to the Menzerna 3500 again and it restored the gloss that I was certain I had before.

I'm stuck on why the haze appeared after all was said and done. In fact, returning home I could see the haze in my garage and am certain it wasn't there before taking it out.

Is it possible the BlackICE interacted with the Final Polish? I only wiped off the polish with MF cloths and didn't use either alcohol or the Eraser in between steps. How important is it to use IPA between each step in the process? Have you seen interactions between polishes and waxes/sealants before? Or is it possible that the heat from driving the car the next morning caused some reaction before the wax set up?

So, I'm waiting until tomorrow to put final product on the hood and it's going to be something I've used for a few years now -- Wolfgang Paint Sealant 3.0. (Of course the BlackICE looks phenomenal everywhere else! I'm just gun shy about using it now).

Your comments and suggestions are welcome. I'd like to know what happened here so I don't get bitten again!

Thanks for listening;)
 
When it's hazing are you able to swipe your finger through it.
 
Maybe the hood is not factory paint and there is an issue with the way the paint was applied or cured. It makes no sense that the rear of the car is fine. Run your finger around the edges of the hood and feel if there is a tape line. I recently did a 61 Vette and I had an issue with the hood and showed the customer that the hood was painted at a different time or somewhere else from the rest of the car due to small pin holes in the paint. It almost looked like overspray under my Brinkmann.
 
Thanks for your reply guys:

GSKR: No, it's like compounding haze that I could only remove with another round of final polishing.

WAXOFF: Your repainted idea could be a possibility. I wonder if what I saw as water etch marks was actually what you've seen as "pin holes".

Have you ever seen an interaction between a final polish and wax?

Thanks again.
 
I've never seen an interaction between a final polish and a wax.
 
Not sure if this applies but something to look for. I have a black Tahoe for work and the previous molester of this vehicle hit a deer and had to have the hood and quarter panel redone. Very shoddy low bid body work. After as much correction as I could do, I had a similar issue after sealant cured only on those two panels. Upon inspection with a magnifying glass, I found tons of tiny pin hols similar to what WAXOFF was talking about. I believe it may be "solvent pop" but not 100% sure. In order to seal those two panels I have to wipe down with IPA a couple of times then a good run with Eraser. My best theory is that some of the polishing oils or residue is staying in those holes and affecting the sealant cure.
 
Carbrio: I agree, neither have I.

Smitty4x4: Sounds like this could be a plausible explanation. I'm not aware of a repainting in my car's history, but it's certainly possible. It seems there was some kind of reaction occurring, and that it took about 12 hours to materialize.

Thanks for your comments fellows.
 
I see Mike is posting today so hopefully he will get around to this thread...I believe he will have something to say about the abrasive technology you used as this is a topic of another thread of his.
 
SL500 said:
Carbrio: I agree, neither have I.

Smitty4x4: Sounds like this could be a plausible explanation. I'm not aware of a repainting in my car's history, but it's certainly possible. It seems there was some kind of reaction occurring, and that it took about 12 hours to materialize.

Thanks for your comments fellows.
Click to expand...

Please send out an update when you can. I've done a quick internet search and have come up with nothing. I did find a thread on the MB forum back in 2008 where sudden milky white patches started to appear on a guy's car...after much debate about potential clear coat failure, it ended up that there was a leak in his parking garage which would cause the ceiling plaster to effervesce and drip onto his car. Definitely not the situation you are dealing with. There was a lot of discussion about moisture and humidity. In case you are interested, I've attached the link to the thread below, but again, this is far from the situation you are dealing with.

https://www.mbca.org/forum/sudden-milky-paint-clear-coat-discoloration#!/?sudden milky paint
 
SL500 said:
Hello Everyone,


I have a black 2009 MB SL550
Click to expand...

Does your SL500 have the Cermiclear paint finish?

See my article here,


Ceramiclear Paint Code Location on Mercedes-Benz




You're looking for a number that has the letter "C" in front of it like you see here,

C590

Ceramiclear_Paint_Code_002.jpg




:)
 
Hey Mike, thanks for replying. Love your tutorials and product reviews! I've learned a tremendous amount which is why this problem is a bit perplexing!

Yes, it's C040, which is why I went with the Menzerna line of compounds/polishes.

Al
 
SL500 said:
Hey Mike, thanks for replying. Love your tutorials and product reviews! I've learned a tremendous amount which is why this problem is a bit perplexing!

Yes, it's C040, which is why I went with the Menzerna line of compounds/polishes.

Al
Click to expand...



Okay well contrary to just about every opinion I read from others about Ceramiclear paints in my opinion they polish out great and polish out EASY.


So my concern is 1 has the Ceramiclear top surface been compromised?

If it has, consensus is the underlying paint can be very prone to micro-marring.

Read my article here,


Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful



If this is the case then you're going to need to finish out using either SF4000 or SF4500.

Get it as good as you can and then seal her up.


:)
 
Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't know how Menzerna characterizes the "compatibility" of their polishes with Ceramiclear, but the way I remember it the polishes they brought out specifically for use on the Ceramiclear paints were SIP, PO85RD, and PO106FF, followed by Power Finish later.

In this case the OP started with Power Gloss which would not be my first choice for a compound today due to the older abrasive technology it uses compared to FG400. I'm sure there are people that find the price/performance point for PG makes sense for some applications, but for myself I don't think a black M-B is one of them.
 
Thanks for the great replies:

Mike: I think your Ceramiclear article pretty much describes my situation. The chances are good that since I bought the car used, it had been compounded at least once, maybe more, and then with me applying the Menzerna Power Gloss 1000 to remove the water spots, I took off what was left of the top nano-chemistry. Micro-marring is a good description for the appearance.

Setec Astronomy: I started with the Menzerna SIP and it wasn't enough to diminish the appearance of the water marks and RIDS, so I went up the Menzerna abrasion chart one step and selected the Power Gloss. Maybe the FG400 would have been a better choice, but I saw it as being more abrasive (two steps up), and I didn't want to risk damaging the clear coat. Looks like I may have ended up there anyway.

Here's where I'm at: I went over the hood with the SF3500 making several very light passes. The haze seems to be gone and if it is there, I won't be able to tell until I'm in bright sunlight. If so, I'll go with the SF4500 and, as Mike says, seal her up!

I'm guessing there's no more aggressive polishing in my future with this car.
 
Well, I just typed a long reply but it seems to have been lost.

I don't see where you noted what machine you used, can you tell us what machine/pad/speed you polished at? And how much polishing experience you have?
 
Sure. My experience is somewhat limited. Prior to working on my current car, I polished my previous silver 2003 SL500, which I believe also had a Ceramiclear clear coat. I only used Pinnacle Swirl Remover, and the Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion as a pre-polish, both with a Porter Cable. Haven't used anything more aggressive until now.

I'm using a Porter Cable 7424XP with the following on the black SL:
Power Gloss 1000: Yellow Lake Country Smart Pad with the PC set to 5
Intensive Polish: White Lake Country Smart Pad with the PC set to 5
Super Finish Polish: White Lake Country Smart Pad with the PC set to 5
BlackFire BlackICE: Applied by hand with a foam wax applicator

See anything I could have done differently?
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't know how Menzerna characterizes the "compatibility" of their polishes with Ceramiclear,
Click to expand...


I think you're right about Menzerna targeting their products as compatible with Ceramiclear paints but in my opinion any high quality compounds and polishes that use great abrasive-technology will work fine.

The BIGGER picture is to

A: Avoid putting scratches into Ceramiclear paints in the first place.

B: Avoid using aggressive products altogether.

C: If you have to use an aggressive product keep the use to a minimum.

D: If you're working on a Ceramiclear finish that has been compromised then tread carefully, lower your expectations of perfection and use an ultra fine cut jeweling polish to finish out.


Also might try the McKee's Jeweling Wax when it becomes available. My guess is it would work very well for this application i.e. an LSP.



Our new SL500 has the Ceramiclear finish. We bought this car with 9000 miles on it and zero swirls and scratches and because I use my "Careful Approach" to washing a car I doubt it will ever need to be polished using a compound or even medium cut polish.


Stacys_SL500_001.jpg
 
SL500 said:
See anything I could have done differently?
Click to expand...

My initial thought was simply that you didn't break the PG down enough and left some hazing that wasn't corrected in your subsequent steps. But I just went and rubbed some PG between my fingers and it felt pretty smooth--it's been forever since I've used it--I must be thinking about another compound that you could actually feel the grit.

I'd listen to Mike Phillips, not me.
 
Mike and Setec Astronomy,

Thanks a lot for your posts. I think I got to a good place with it. I applied the LSP last night and went with the Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant this time, a product I've been using for years that gives me good durability. It looks great today and 100% better than when I started. You can still see the water spots on close inspection but they're fainter and greatly diminished. If the sun's out in the next few days, I'll post some pics.

So, just one more question: Since my clear coat is compromised to some degree, have I sworn off all polishes for this car, or could I judiciously apply something like a SF3500 or SF4500 in the future as needs dictate? From Mike's posts, it sounds like maybe the 4500 or a jewelling polish would be still be fine.

Hmm, maybe I need to be looking at BMWs in the future...

Thanks for all your help! I'll keep watching and learning.


Al
 
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