Holograms- Permanent or Fixable?

D

DA-detailer

New member
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
I have dealt with holograms quite a few times and have previously talked to a co-worker who has been detailing for 30+ years. Anyways, during our conversation about holograms he said you can cover them up, but never remove them. As you wash the car and the wax or polish comes off and the holograms will appear again. I assumed this to be true until I saw Mike Phillips posted about a yellow f100 show truck with holograms. From the video I saw and the thread along with it I assumed he actually meant holograms could be removed completely. Upon trying to do research on my own I concluded that what makes holograms should be able to be corrected and it seems that many people also believe they can be corrected? Is my current findings correct or is the other detail right on this issue?
 
DA-detailer said:
I have dealt with holograms quite a few times and have previously talked to a co-worker who has been detailing for 30+ years. Anyways, during our conversation about holograms he said you can cover them up, but never remove them. As you wash the car and the wax or polish comes off and the holograms will appear again. I assumed this to be true until I saw Mike Phillips posted about a yellow f100 show truck with holograms. From the video I saw and the thread along with it I assumed he actually meant holograms could be removed completely. Upon trying to do research on my own I concluded that what makes holograms should be able to be corrected and it seems that many people also believe they can be corrected? Is my current findings correct or is the other detail right on this issue?
Click to expand...

Absolutely they can be removed!

When you instill holograms into a paint these are nothing more than tiny fine scratches caused by the direct drive of a rotary and a wool pad.

When you remove them you polish them out with a DA that will not instill these. You are removing the surround paint to level the paint and bring everything to a smooth swirl and hologram free finish.

EDIT:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...pots-bird-droping-etchings-micro-marring.html

Rotary Buffer Swirls
Rotary Buffer Swirls, also called Holograms or Buffer Trails are circular scratches instilled into paint by a rotary buffer and usually a wool pad but they can also be instilled using a foam pad. While it is the direct drive rotating action of a rotary buffer that can instill circular scratches into paint, this doesn't make them an evil tool, it's just a part of they cause and effect from using a direct drive tool that rotates a buffing pad in a single rotating action.

It's possible to use a rotary buffer and not instill rotary buffer swirl if the operator has a high skill level and uses quality pads and products. If rotary buffer swirls are instilled into paint, a true professional will do a follow-up process to remove them using less aggressive pads and products and sometimes switch to a different type of tool with a different action. Rotary Buffer Swirls usually show up i a Zig-Zag pattern when exposed to bright light like sun light. Rotary Buffer Swirls mimic the path the operator moved the buffer over the paint
Click to expand...

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...655-dealership-corvette-holograms-swirls.html
 
DA-detailer, you are simply buying into the hack detailer folklore. Since these folks are only skilled enough to instill holograms, but not remove them, they will bury you with a line of diatribe such as "that's just the way black paint is" "you can never get rid of them, only hide them" "but I polished the car" etc.

As far as the actual facts...your detailer friend is right, you can never remove holograms (using a dirty wool pad that has been sitting face down on the concrete floor), only cover them up (with a filler-laced product to hide his own ineptitude).

PS Did I just say that stuff? I guess I did.
 
DA-detailer said:
I have dealt with holograms quite a few times and have previously talked to a co-worker who has been detailing for 30+ years. Anyways, during our conversation about holograms he said you can cover them up, but never remove them. As you wash the car and the wax or polish comes off and the holograms will appear again. I assumed this to be true until I saw Mike Phillips posted about a yellow f100 show truck with holograms. From the video I saw and the thread along with it I assumed he actually meant holograms could be removed completely. Upon trying to do research on my own I concluded that what makes holograms should be able to be corrected and it seems that many people also believe they can be corrected? Is my current findings correct or is the other detail right on this issue?
Click to expand...

Sounds like the old dog needs to be taught some new tricks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free
 
Anyone see the irony? A "DA Detailer" asking if holograms can be removed?

Yes, they can be removed, with a DA (dual action) polisher fairly easily.
 
DA-detailer said:
I have dealt with holograms quite a few times and have previously talked to a co-worker who has been detailing for 30+ years.
Click to expand...


Without exception, the most common comment I've heard for over 20 years now after teaching a detailing class is from someone my age or older and it goes like this,


"If found out today I've been doing it wrong for the last 30 years"


Seriously.

Most detailers, especially older guys are self-taught. Nothing wrong with this but it is kind of limiting.

Something I type on the forum all the time and if fact have an article on, goes like this,


Detailers that hang out on discussion forums know more than detailers that don't...


Does your buddy hang out on detailing discussion forums? If not... share this forum with him.

In FACT the only way to keep up with the rate and speed that new products, (new technology), being introduced to the world is to be on a forum like this one because new products and technology breaks on forum long before it creeps out to some guy in a garage or shop via a Wagon Jobber.

And since I called on PBE and Hard Parts stores for 3 years once in my life trying to educate the countermen and counterwomen on both old and new products, I'm hear to tell you that 99.9% of these people are not going to be able to help you and all they are there to do is ring you up with whatever you bring to the counter.


To your question... as others have said, "yes" holograms can be removed. The limiting factor is,

How deep the holograms or circular scratches are in the paint.
How thin or thick is the paint


The factory clear coat on most new cars is right at 2 mils, that's thinner than a 3M Post-it Note. Hold one between your fingers and this will drive the point home REAL FAST just how thin this layer of paint is. And for this reason, it's an absolute CRIME for some hack detailer to fill someone's new or used car with holograms.

Think about this...

Buffing a car out using a rotary buffer and instilling holograms into the paint removes paint and leaves scratches or voids in the paint.

That's a bad thing.

For someone that actually knows what they are doing to come along and remove the swirls by correctly buffing the paint to level it or flatten it out will also remove paint.

Now paint has been removed twice and it's all been totally unnecessary. Completely unnecessary. But that's our "system" archaic as it might be.


Here's a couple of articles on this topic, the second one there's a bunch of guys making jokes about the article but regardless, it's true. And...

Welcome to AutogeekOnline! :welcome:



What it means to remove swirls, scratches and water spots out of automotive clear coats


And here's the article everyone makes a joke in and the comments are funny but I still stand by what I wrote.


Swirls and Scratches Don't Exist


:)
 
I have to agree, many years ago they were a sign of process. But that was then and this is now.

I was a pretty successful show'n'shine competitor in the late 1990's and sort of finished up in the early 00's using some new fangled sealants from the USA (I'm in Australia). Back then we'd never consider using a machine on a car as frequently as people do now, but there was also a lack of the superfine products and pads that we now have available everywhere.

Holograms where almost a sign of detailing worn with pride!

I've only recently rekindled my interest in detailing at a "advanced" level and am on a pretty steep learning curve to catch up. I'd describe it a bit like the kitchen tiles when I accidentally spilt some V07 on the floor.

I'd hate to think just how confusing it'd be to someone who's been doing it for a job for 20-30 years and suddenly discovers all the new techniques and amazing products.

I'm loving it, and having resources like and other forums have been invaluable

What's super awesome is just how easy new products are to work with.
 
Definitely fixable! I just did this last night. The body shop returned the vehicle to me with crazy holograms and "pig tails" all over. Forgot to bring my Menzerna FG400 though, thought the M205 would be enough but it wasn't. Gonna do another pass with FG400 and SF4500 to take care of the pig tails.

swirl1.jpg


swirl2.jpg
 
You can remove them and hide them. Nothing wrong with hiding it as well, not everyone can afford a paint restoration. So hiding them is fairly easy another option as well. As long as you are upfront with the customer and both on the same page of what they are getting. Dealerships also used this trick to enhance the paint look and hide the imperfections for a quick sale.

Sent with my Note 2, from Planet Namek.
 
At the shop we use Meguiars 83, 80, and 82. I have a rotary buffer and a dual action.
The process I have been taught is to use the correction compound to fix the issues with the paint, then apply 80 and wax. Looks great when we pull the vehicles out of the shop but the holograms always come back as the products wash off. Since I am being told the holograms can be fixed what method would you recommend based off the polishes I said we use?
 
Holograms are actually very straight forward to correct. Its heavy rids on hard clear that can be a pain without sanding.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AG Online
 
If you have a DA then i would go with the Megs microfiber correction system.

Another option would be M105/205
 
Setec Astronomy said:
DA-detailer, you are simply buying into the hack detailer folklore. Since these folks are only skilled enough to instill holograms, but not remove them, they will bury you with a line of diatribe such as "that's just the way black paint is" "you can never get rid of them, only hide them" "but I polished the car" etc.

As far as the actual facts...your detailer friend is right, you can never remove holograms (using a dirty wool pad that has been sitting face down on the concrete floor), only cover them up (with a filler-laced product to hide his own ineptitude).

PS Did I just say that stuff? I guess I did.
Click to expand...

:wave:Uhhhhhh.... THIS!

Seriously DA Detailer, your friend with 30 years in the business, is an idiot, or just doesn't know any better. Lemee take that back, he is what you would call ignorant. There is no cure for stupid, but there is for ignorance. He needs to learn to use a DA polisher and maybe, just maybe he'll see that holograms can indeed be fixed.

OTOH, nothing bothers me more than holograms on what are supposed to be show cars. Many of those will be seen on the TV auction shows in fact. :laughing:

:offtopic:Speaking of ignorant ways to clean a car. Was watching Fast N Loud the other day where they came out to Elberton GA and found a barn find, 38 Aston Martin one of only THIRTY EIGHT built that year. They managed to buy it (of course, and with the help of Richards friend Dennis Collins). Richard isn't exactly a poor old backwoods redneck, but Dennis has a net worth of 20 million. So they end up with the 38 Aston Martin, that Richard keeps calling Austin Martin and have it, (with some other cars) shipped back to Texas. Then of course sold the Aston Martin (to a buyer that stated the purchase price remain confidential).

I digress..... ;)

Anyhow, there were a couple of things that really bothered me about the way that car was handled.

One is it was a true "barn find" although it was a sealed garage (which is way mo' betta'). :laughing: It had been sitting there for like 60 years and was a true time capsule. With cars like that there has been a VERY strong train of thought the last decade or so to leave them "as is". Basically to do a very light and sympathetic tune-up to get them running and try to leave as much of the "barn dust" on them as possible. Literally you try and keep all the dirt on the fenders as you work on the engine so it looks 'untouched'.

Of course they didn't do that, but didn't restore it either. They washed it, most likely with a dirty shop towel. IMHO that took away from the value as it is no longer a "time capsule" and now is simply an old Aston Martin that he has no choice but to restore. (The buyer is a Pebble Beach Concours kind of guy so he'll probably do that.)

But secondly was that I noticed something in the closing shots. Not only have I seen holograms on almost everything they've put out, because they don't own a DA.
But on THAT car, you won't believe what they did to the seats. Talk about hiding the bad stuff under a layer of gunk..... Good ol' Vasoline by the hand full! :eek: Seriously dude, Vaso-freaking-lean to make the seats shiny. :rolleyes: Probably smeared it all over the paint as well. :mad:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top