How do you even respond to this sales pitch?

[Fishincricket]

Let me make this simple. Wax does not bond to the clear coat, it sticks. Even using pristine wash methods ,wax will break down. Since wax is greasy in nature, dirt and grime will embed into the wax layer causing the finish to dull. Over time, washing will produce swirl marks. Normally, most hobbyists apply more wax which is a temp solution, and then swirl mark removers with more wax by hand. Then they realize that is not working, so compound, polish, or a polisher will be needed.

When will correction not be needed is my question? Answer : never. As long as you use wax this will be a problem you have live with. Once corrected, and re waxed it is just a matter of time before this same thing will happen again.

The above is a statement made on another forum that I am a member of. I'm just curious as to how you would respond to this?

Oh, and make no mistake, it's the beginning of a sales pitch for a sealant/coating that he claims lasts for years and won't "swirl" like waxes and sealants.

Seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of how swirls are instilled and how wax works, eh? Just help me with the words, if only to help those reading his words who contemplate investing $50 in his particular flavor of sealant/coating, with the promise that they'll never have to correct their paint again! :doh:

 

[Big Boi]

subscribed!

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

There are coatings that legitimately reduce the potential for wash induced marring; however, nothing that you can currently pour out of a bottle and onto your paint is "scratch proof."

 

[Pureshine]

If there was a coating that was scratch proof or a clear coat that is scratch proof. Then paint correction would never be needed. waxing is not the problem its in proper washing is where 95% of the marring and scratches come from. Is this person a professional detailer or just a weekend detailer?
Todd

 

[1oldsalt]

I know who wrote that. The guy is kind of a nut and has been banned or flamed mercilessly in the forums where he posts. He claims that scratches and swirls are caused by waxing. When people call him on it he gets insulting and belligerent. Like you said he's trying to sell some sort of acrylic sealant.
He claims to be a detailer and has some videos on youtube.
I wouldn't let him look at my car let alone detail it.

 

[SuperiorAutoLLC]

I know who wrote that. The guy is kind of a nut and has been banned or flamed mercilessly in the forums where he posts. He claims that scratches and swirls are caused by waxing. When people call him on it he gets insulting and belligerent. Like you said he's trying to sell some sort of acrylic sealant.
He claims to be a detailer and has some videos on youtube.
I wouldn't let him look at my car let alone detail it.

Is this the same guy that was detailing the Bently with Fantastic?

 

[mwoolfso]

I found those threads and read some. About the only thing he is specific with is his personal preference for sealants rather than waxes, and that everyone should be using them.

He hardly sends a clear message on any other point.

I just love how people use a "trigger" word simply to make their point seem more valid than others; specifically the comments and articles on acids that imply and support other comments on the Web that "acids" in wax are bad for paint; as if every acid will burn or degrade. Those posts and articles are wrong in an absolute sense. Maybe in a lab those articles have merit. In the real world, paint surfaces get bombarded with acids and alkalines every day.

Acids and alkalines are commonly added to products to achieve a form of balance, to increase a characteristic with a finished compound or mixture based on a goal. That characteristic could be anything; "gloss/reflectivity", "durability", "color", whatever. In fact, his comments about "pH-neutral" is a search for this balance. There are not many products and compounds out there today that are truly pH neutral across their useful lifecycle.

What he doesn't venture into is "personal preference" at all; which is why his tried-and-true sealant manufacturer also sells those "acidic" car wax, non-sealant-type products. He evaded the question with a simple, "I don't know (nor care)" response. Why? Simply because it detracts from his opinion that everyone should be moving to sealants.

I say, "let it be", "let him be".

 

[Fishincricket]

There are coatings that legitimately reduce the potential for wash induced marring; however, nothing that you can currently pour out of a bottle and onto your paint is "scratch proof."

Agreed. Which coating claim to "reduce the potential for wash marring"? I'd love to put a few of those out there for his readers.. You know, something with some legitimate research behind it, not just scratchy YouTube videos and research from other sealant companies..

If there was a coating that was scratch proof or a clear coat that is scratch proof. Then paint correction would never be needed. waxing is not the problem its in proper washing is where 95% of the marring and scratches come from. Is this person a professional detailer or just a weekend detailer?
Todd

He claims to have done this for over 30 years.. He also claims that his coating of choice has been around for this long as well, same formula.

I know who wrote that. The guy is kind of a nut and has been banned or flamed mercilessly in the forums where he posts. He claims that scratches and swirls are caused by waxing. When people call him on it he gets insulting and belligerent. Like you said he's trying to sell some sort of acrylic sealant.
He claims to be a detailer and has some videos on youtube.
I wouldn't let him look at my car let alone detail it.

Yup, das da guy! His latest claim is that his product is the exact same as a $500/gal airplane sealant.

Is this the same guy that was detailing the Bently with Fantastic?

Dunno, probably not... He's pretty stuck on AT-5 and Dawn dish soap.

 

[swanicyouth]

If wax is the cause of swirls, how come the cars with the worse swirls are those that are never waxed / detailed / maintained ? Using that logic, those finishes should be pristine.

 

[Fishincricket]

I found those threads and read some. About the only thing he is specific with is his personal preference for sealants rather than waxes, and that everyone should be using them.

He hardly sends a clear message on any other point.

I just love how people use a "trigger" word simply to make their point seem more valid than others; specifically the comments and articles on acids that imply and support other comments on the Web that "acids" in wax are bad for paint; as if every acid will burn or degrade. Those posts and articles are wrong in an absolute sense. Maybe in a lab those articles have merit. In the real world, paint surfaces get bombarded with acids and alkalines every day.

Acids and alkalines are commonly added to products to achieve a form of balance, to increase a characteristic with a finished compound or mixture based on a goal. That characteristic could be anything; "gloss/reflectivity", "durability", "color", whatever. In fact, his comments about "pH-neutral" is a search for this balance. There are not many products and compounds out there today that are truly pH neutral across their useful lifecycle.

What he doesn't venture into is "personal preference" at all; which is why his tried-and-true sealant manufacturer also sells those "acidic" car wax, non-sealant-type products. He evaded the question with a simple, "I don't know (nor care)" response. Why? Simply because it detracts from his opinion that everyone should be moving to sealants.

I say, "let it be", "let him be".

I should , I really should. I explained that its bad science on his part, I attempted to be polite.. But now he's just trashing the detailing area of a few of my forum homes, and I want to at least be able to point out his inconsistencies and bad science. Like his statement that "Shampoo is for hair, not cars."

When someone says something like that it makes me wanna slap em! :doh:

 

[smooth]

Subscribed!

 

[Dr_Pain]

I think I may be missing something!?!

Aren't any forms of protection (from glaze to coating) put on the paint/clear with knowledge that they are temporary? Aren't they all subject to the same poor washing techniques or tools?

So what is the guy's point?

I have read on more than one occasion this protection layer referred to as a "sacrificial layer"? One may protect longer than the other (granted), but in the marketing of which to push to your clients, you have to take into consideration a lot more than just which is the "best". It is which is the best for the particular individual's:

1) Pocket book
2) Protection goals
3) Type of vehicle
4) Vehicle exposure
5) Maintenance regiment
etc....

I would not see it as wise to push a coating on a $1000 used car, same as I would not be pushing a glaze or high quality wax on an oil field work truck. Overall (in my opinion) you need to figure the budget of the customer and create a long term game plan that fits the needs.... and the bill. It unnerves me to see detailers push the budget for short term gains (ie. their gains).

 

[FUNX650]

Hi Fishincricket...

Based solely on just the quotation you have provided in your OP:
-What this person has stated in the first paragraph is mostly spot-on.
-Is it stated in a "purely-technologically/chemically correct" fashion?
IMO...No.


Also, IMO...
-Except for what I perceive to be: semantics...of the last sentence, contained therein...
-It's his stated implications in the second paragraph that causes this person's appearance of going awry.



Bob

 

[Fishincricket]

What's it called when someone mixes 95% fact with 5% BS? (Besides a good Dan Brown novel)

Based solely on just the quotation you have provided in your OP:

Good point, Bob.. I didn't want to drag all his posts (that still remain) over here, but here's one thread and here's the other.. (2 of only 5 threads in the detailing section of this forum, so the thread I posted was with the intent of starting off with the basics and avoiding his threads, which are now mostly deleted), and here's some of his quotes:

First ,Opti Coat is not a sealant, it is a permanent coating. The klasse product is the closet thing you mention to a real protection product, The others are waxes with a polymer added.

You make this statement:

Obviously the way to protect this clear coat is some type of sacrificial barrier.

It may be obvious to most hobbyists who get there info from autogeek, but to someone who knows better that is not the case. Why? I have heard this logic many times before, and my response is this. Usually, a product like Blackfire is a wax with a polymer added.The polymer is called Polycharger. Here is what the company says about it on it's website:

The only thing that comes through the ultra-tough Polycharger protective barrier is the shine. That's because a Polycharger wax finish won't wash off with ordinary car wash shampoos or detergents. In field tests, all Polycharger compatible waxes washed off with Dawn dishwashing detergent, but they held fast when boosted with Polycharger.

http://www.polycharger.com/index.html

All this additive does is allow the wax to withstand breaking down from washing for a longer period, and that is it. Wax cannot truly bond to car paint even with a polymer, and this why swirl marks happen. Many companies call their waxes "sealants" as a new buzz word to give people the impression their product is something new.

Most clear coats are acrylic poly urethane paints. AT-5 bond to this paint because it is a true acrylic formulation, and not a wax hybrid. It truly bonds to the clear coat and seals, and absolutely protects the clear coat.

Opti Coat is a permanent coating that does bond to the clear coat, and it may be harder then normal clear. Although, you cannot apply additional coats on to it, and it is not easy to remove. Also, if wax is applied over it for shine swirl marks will happen with washing.

Now klasse maybe different. They call it a glaze, but say it an acrylic.

Now given what I said here many use a poly sealant like Blackfire Wet Diamond with a wax coat for shine over it. They say it is protection, and it may offer SOME for a short time . Although, given neither coat bonds to anything , but just sticks to it. All you have is a greasy media that is perfect for things like dirt, grime, and salt to embed into. Washing with a shampoo will not remove anything really, but make things worse until it will all have to be removed.Of course, correction is needed to restore the " perfect finish", but has this whole procedure offered absolute protection to the clear coat? Hardly.

You are just a hobbyist plain and simple. You mention these skills you have that makes paint look perfect, but my question is for how long. What baffles me about you is that all you talk about is this magical perfect finish you claim to offer. What is so perfect about it? Clearly, your ego will not allow you to see the truth that wax offers no real protection without monthly applications. Anything greasy like wax is just a magnet for dirt and grime that will have to be removed creating more work for you. What separates me from you by miles is I do everything you do as far as creating a perfect finish in much less time,but I use a product that offers real protection.

 

[BrutalNoodle]

All I got from that exchange is; we're a bunch of females that are lousy with makeup.

 

[FUNX650]

What's it called when someone mixes 95% fact with 5% BS? (Besides a good Dan Brown novel)

A couple of points I gleaned from the two FSC threads you provided: {one thread and here's the other}


The 95%: This person does make some valid points
The 5%: What I consider his: "marketing-tactics".

RE: Valid points:
-"acrylic sealants"...Klasse (there are others, FWIW)
-"swirls" can be caused by: His perception of: dirt, and such, imbedding themselves in waxes...

(What he doesn't want to include, or IMO, he just can't for personal reasons...doesn't want to get across:
The importance of "proper-wash-methods" for ridding a vehicle of:
"natural/environmental/industrial/man-made contaminates"...regardless of the LSP)


RE:Marketing-Tactics:
-Throwing some "polymers" (contained in: waxes & sealants) 'Under the Bus'!
-My "acrylic sealant" is the best...OR ELSE!!

Good point, Bob.. I didn't want to drag all his posts

Thanks...On both parts.

Here I am an owner of a full-size Chevy and didn't even know that the FSC forum existed!! :doh:



Bob

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

Agreed. Which coating claim to "reduce the potential for wash marring"? I'd love to put a few of those out there for his readers.. You know, something with some legitimate research behind it, not just scratchy YouTube videos and research from other sealant companies...

C.Quartz, C.Quartz Finest & Opti-Coat 2.0 all come to mind. There are other coatings that are popular overseas that protect the paint in much the same way (Modesta, etc.). While these coatings are not scratch proof they are harder than typical clear and will reduce/eliminate wash induced marring (when proper technique is used).

I read the last quote from this person... it sounds like they are saying swirl marks are created in the wax or sealant layer??? I think they fail to realize that a layer of wax or sealant is only a fraction of a micron thick. Most "swirl marks" will be about .1 - 1 microns deep into the paint (or worse). If you are seeing swirl marks on a car it is because something (dirt,sand, etc.) ground against the car and removed some amount of paint. Whether there is wax or sealant on the car is irrelevant. If a swirl mark or scratch is going to occur the only way ANYTHING will be able to protect the paint from that is if it is thick enough to absorb the damage.

The main benefit of the coatings I listed above is that they are thicker than the scratches that would typically be inflected with poor washing technique AND they are harder than normal clear coat. This means that they will look better LONGER when properly cared for. And if improperly cared for they will absorb most any damage inflected from washing INSTEAD of the paint absorbing the damage.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

It's time for him to put the pipe down

 

[Fishincricket]

C.Quartz, C.Quartz Finest & Opti-Coat 2.0 all come to mind. There are other coatings that are popular overseas that protect the paint in much the same way (Modesta, etc.). While these coatings are not scratch proof they are harder than typical clear and will reduce/eliminate wash induced marring (when proper technique is used).

I read the last quote from this person... it sounds like they are saying swirl marks are created in the wax or sealant layer??? I think they fail to realize that a layer of wax or sealant is only a fraction of a micron thick. Most "swirl marks" will be about .1 - 1 microns deep into the paint (or worse). If you are seeing swirl marks on a car it is because something (dirt,sand, etc.) ground against the car and removed some amount of paint. Whether there is wax or sealant on the car is irrelevant. If a swirl mark or scratch is going to occur the only way ANYTHING will be able to protect the paint from that is if it is thick enough to absorb the damage.

The main benefit of the coatings I listed above is that they are thicker than the scratches that would typically be inflected with poor washing technique AND they are harder than normal clear coat. This means that they will look better LONGER when properly cared for. And if improperly cared for they will absorb most any damage inflected from washing INSTEAD of the paint absorbing the damage.

Thanks, that science makes sense.

 

[Bill1234]

If there was a coating as stated, car guys would never be in business lol