How Holden Was MURDERED

[DFB]

A lot of what is presented in this video I have thought for years. The way GM sacrificed divisions of the company outside of the USA to prop up their own deficiencies is pathetically bad business management, in fact its shameful. Instead of the US perhaps learning from the success of the overseas markets, they exploited them instead......................

"When an overseas division becomes profitable, it gets systematically drained to help Detroit and send more money to shareholders. They are not allowed to invest their own profits in updating factories and developing new models. And they can't keep them in a war chest, instead they are promised that GM itself will serve as their war chest, the problem is, the keys to this war chest remain in Detroit."

There is also some damming info about how Holden had to pay GM to use the VE's Zeta platform that THEY designed and engineered at their own cost. Again, instead of GM working as a united team, they were self-sabotaging. Then there was GM insisting Holden use its profits to bail out GM-DAT, effectively Daewoo. THAT is why Holden dropped all of the quality Opel models for the stream of woeful rebadged Korean vehicles like the Daewoo Kalos-based Barina, the woeful Epica, the Viva.................

The same applies to Ford Australia, there was never a desire to make products here, it was all about diverting government funding back to Detroit. Who remembers the EcoBoost Falcon, which including their own money was a co-investment with both federal and Victorian governments to the tune of $42-million dollars.

“We greatly appreciate the assistance of the Australian and Victorian governments towards the development of Falcon EcoBoost.

I'm sorry, but importing an engine and putting it into an existing platform did NOT cost what Ford said it did. Yes, crash testing a different frontal footprint is expensive, but not that expensive. The development cost of the EcoBoost was heavily inflated and ensured Ford Detroit enjoyed the bonus cash flow.

Be it Ford or Holden, there were multiple grave diggers that led to the death of locally made cars. But the fact that Ford and GM themselves played a role in digging that grave, well it's almost unbelievable.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I didn't watch the video, but it's frankly not surprising to me that Ford and GM wound up using some nationalistic "values" in regard to their off-shore subsidiaries. Especially if this was the early 00's when that guy who was CEO of GM, when he was hiring Bob Lutz as a "product guru", said the reason he was hiring Lutz was "I'm not a car guy"...and I'm like...DON'T YOU HAVE TO BE A CAR GUY TO BE CEO OF GENERAL MOTORS?!?!?!?!

So I'm remembering right that you have no more car factories in Australia? I feel for you, I live in New Jersey and we used to have 2 Ford plants and one GM here, that are all gone.

 

[DFB]

I didn't watch the video, but it's frankly not surprising to me that Ford and GM wound up using some nationalistic "values" in regard to their off-shore subsidiaries. Especially if this was the early 00's when that guy who was CEO of GM, when he was hiring Bob Lutz as a "product guru", said the reason he was hiring Lutz was "I'm not a car guy"...and I'm like...DON'T YOU HAVE TO BE A CAR GUY TO BE CEO OF GENERAL MOTORS?!?!?!?!

So I'm remembering right that you have no more car factories in Australia? I feel for you, I live in New Jersey and we used to have 2 Ford plants and one GM here, that are all gone.

It's all gone.

On the Ford side, the old assembly plant in Broadmeadows was sold off and has been demolished, the Geelong engine and stamping plants also sold and have been gutted and turned into a business park. They have at least kept the heritage listed facade of the Geelong facilities.



























Thankfully this gorgeous facade is heritage listed and cannot be demolished.





The only remaining evidence we had a car industry is Ford still having a design and engineering team that runs out of Melbourne and Geelong. The previous and current generation Ranger was designed and engineered here in Australia, and is manufactured in multiple factories around the world. The US-versions share the Aussie-developed T6 platform, and with Ford Australia being the lead team for that platform, they even worked on the largely US-developed Bronco.

Earlier this month, Ford actually celebrated 100 years in Australia.

The other area of activity is right-hand drive conversations of the US pickups such as the RAM 1500 and 2500, Ford F-150, Chevy Silverado 1500 and 2500.

The frustrating thing is, the government now wonders why we don't make anything in this country anymore. And yet, it was those idiots that decided not to fund, subsidize or protect the local car industry. They say that the remaining car companies didn't make cars people wanted, which was somewhat true. But then the government was subsidizing the sale of dual cab pickup trucks made in Thailand by offering tax credits and registration discounts for those buying these vehicles. So naturally, people vote with their wallets.

Anyway, it was a very complex death of 1000 cuts. The topic of this thread and the video was how GM self-sabotaged and ultimately killed a brand that dated waaay back to the late 1890's. Ford did the same thing, ending 91-years of car making in this country.

 

[Desertnate]

Sadly, GM has a long tail of brands left behind as flaming wreckage; both foreign and domestic. While I might miss Pontiac and Oldsmobile on a rare occasion, it's Saab and Holden that hurt the worst. Both were needlessly assimilated, and then run into the ground. I don't know much about Opel/Vauxhall, but I imagine it went the same way for them.

The interesting thing today is Buick. If it weren't for the Chinese market, the brand likely wouldn't exist anymore. Most of it's products are designed and built in China and South Korea for those markets and exported back to the US. An interesting reversal to the way they handled off-shore brands in the past.

 

[DFB]

Sadly, GM has a long tail of brands left behind as flaming wreckage; both foreign and domestic. While I might miss Pontiac and Oldsmobile on a rare occasion, it's Saab and Holden that hurt the worst. Both were needlessly assimilated, and then run into the ground. I don't know much about Opel/Vauxhall, but I imagine it went the same way for them.

The interesting thing today is Buick. If it weren't for the Chinese market, the brand likely wouldn't exist anymore. Most of it's products are designed and built in China and South Korea for those markets and exported back to the US. An interesting reversal to the way they handled off-shore brands in the past.

Going by that video, Opel was once the most successful and profitable division of GM. Instead of learning and leveraging that success, GM siphoned the money back to the US to compensate for their own poor management and product decisions. Saab was never a big player, but they once had a unique flavor. A flavor GM removed and turned into a badge engineering exercise. Shameful.

I can say the same for Ford, they just didn't know what to do with Jaguar, Landrover, Volvo or Aston Martin. Instead of letting them innovate and evolve, Ford insisted they continue making what they always did. Then when it all failed to deliver, they bailed.

 

[DFB]

All of this and more is why I'm falling out of love with cars. There is very little on the market that grabs me these days. Cars have lost their unique flavors and are melding into a generic blend of sameness, the only differentiating element being the badge on the steering wheel. The prospect of an electric cars or overweight SUV's and pickups does absolutely nothing for me. People lust over Raptors and BMW's with ugly styling and terrible sounding engines, or settle for underpowered Chinese made SUV's and soot blowing pickups. None of that is exciting to me.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Sadly, GM has a long tail of brands left behind as flaming wreckage; both foreign and domestic. While I might miss Pontiac and Oldsmobile on a rare occasion, it's Saab and Holden that hurt the worst. Both were needlessly assimilated, and then run into the ground. I don't know much about Opel/Vauxhall, but I imagine it went the same way for them.

Going by that video, Opel was once the most successful and profitable division of GM. Instead of learning and leveraging that success, GM siphoned the money back to the US to compensate for their own poor management and product decisions. Saab was never a big player, but they once had a unique flavor. A flavor GM removed and turned into a badge engineering exercise. Shameful.

Well, I miss Pontiac. And I mourn Saab, which, as noted, was a unique, idiosyncratic marque, turned into just another GM division (as was Saturn, created to be completely separate from the "GM parts bin"). The original Saab Turbo from the early 80's was a dream car of mine for a while.

I can say the same for Ford, they just didn't know what to do with Jaguar, Landrover, Volvo or Aston Martin. Instead of letting them innovate and evolve, Ford insisted they continue making what they always did. Then when it all failed to deliver, they bailed.

I don't know, that looked a little different from here in the US; while Ford escaped bankruptcy in 2008 and GM and Chrysler didn't, Ford shed their British investments as well as Volvo to reduce their risk. At least that's how I remember it.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I don't know much about Opel/Vauxhall, but I imagine it went the same way for them.

The interesting thing today is Buick. If it weren't for the Chinese market, the brand likely wouldn't exist anymore. Most of it's products are designed and built in China and South Korea for those markets and exported back to the US. An interesting reversal to the way they handled off-shore brands in the past.

Last time I was in a Buick/GMC showroom was maybe 7 or 8 years ago, and it was crazy, it was like that World Showcase part of Epcot Center where every car was from a different country. They had that Cascada convertible that was made by Opel in Poland. Then they had a station wagon, I guess it was the Regal TourX, which was made by Opel in Germany. Then they had SUV's that were made in the US, Mexico, South Korea, and China.

 

[DFB]

I don't know, that looked a little different from here in the US; while Ford escaped bankruptcy in 2008 and GM and Chrysler didn't, Ford shed their British investments as well as Volvo to reduce their risk. At least that's how I remember it.

I probably should have worded that a little differently. You are correct, Ford did the right thing back then, shedding baggage.

As a massive fan of Jaguar and Aston Martin, it was disappointing to see Ford never grasped what to do with those brands. There were flickers of hope, especially landmark cars like the DB9 and V8 Vantage. But putting Ford Focus parts in the Vanquish, please?

Jaguar was never allowed to move out of its own shadow, that's why they made cars like the retro S-Type (which I actually liked, but most didn't), the X-Type shouldn't have happened, especially using mini-me XJ styling. The all-aluminum XJ of 2003 should have been a landmark, and it was a pioneer of all-aluminum construction along with the Audi A2 and A8. But no, Ford insisted it look like an XJ from 1975. Overall, Ford wanted Jaguar to look like a old Jaguar. It wasn't until Tata bought JLR that Jaguar was allowed to explore modern styling, and the following XJ, XF and XE are proof of that. The F-Type that came later was universally loved.

Volvo on the other hand benefited massively from the Ford-Mazda partnership, without loosing their flavor and unique style. Did you know that the MK2 Focus and Mazda 3 shared a platform with the Volvo C30 and S40/V50? Or that the XC60 shared a platform with the Mondeo, Landrover Freelander and Range Rover Evoque? Or that Volvo was supplying Ford and JLR engines, in particular the glorious inline 5 and oddball transverse inline 6?

 

[Big DaveBig Dave is verified member.]

I was a Holden fan for a long time, over the years I've owned 7 of them, with my direct family having another 8 of them, but I was already over it by the time they shut down. When Holden switched to basically badge engineering stuff from overseas I knew it was over. The market had shifted away from the vehicles they were good at producing anyway, they could have pivoted, but they didn't, or they weren't allowed to.

I like something else now, and I wouldn't say it's Toyota, for me it's strictly the FJ, let's just say the diesel stuff just doesn't do it for me. I'm still curious to see what this baby FJ is going to be like when, or if, it gets released next year. I might be looking for something smaller by then.

 

[DFB]

I was a Holden fan for a long time, over the years I've owned 7 of them, with my direct family having another 8 of them, but I was already over it by the time they shut down. When Holden switched to basically badge engineering stuff from overseas I knew it was over. The market had shifted away from the vehicles they were good at producing anyway, they could have pivoted, but they didn't, or they weren't allowed to.

I like something else now, and I wouldn't say it's Toyota, for me it's strictly the FJ, let's just say the diesel stuff just doesn't do it for me. I'm still curious to see what this baby FJ is going to be like when, or if, it gets released next year. I might be looking for something smaller by then.

Even though I'm a Ford man, it makes me so angry how Holden was treated. Yes, they were an American car company with an Australian name, but they were still "our" cars. The same applied to Ford and the Falcon.

I also hate how everyone one said that Ford and Holden "didn't make cars people wanted", as in small cars. Holden reacted and started making the Cruze locally.........................and no one bought it, so the cars were dumped into fleets at a loss. Granted, the Cruze wasn't a particularly good product, but Holden had put a lot money into Aussie-spec chassis, steering and tyre calibrations. I suspect the Cruze's horrific reliability reputation caught up with Holden eventually, people avoided it and bought a Mazda 3 or Toyota Corolla instead.

Then consider the two top selling vehicles in Australia over the last decade are actually BIGGER and more polluting than Falcon's and Commodore's that were supposedly too big and too thirsty.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Jaguar was never allowed to move out of its own shadow, that's why they made cars like the retro S-Type (which I actually liked, but most didn't), the X-Type shouldn't have happened, especially using mini-me XJ styling. The all-aluminum XJ of 2003 should have been a landmark, and it was a pioneer of all-aluminum construction along with the Audi A2 and A8. But no, Ford insisted it look like an XJ from 1975. Overall, Ford wanted Jaguar to look like a old Jaguar. It wasn't until Tata bought JLR that Jaguar was allowed to explore modern styling, and the following XJ, XF and XE are proof of that. The F-Type that came later was universally loved.

Volvo on the other hand benefited massively from the Ford-Mazda partnership, without loosing their flavor and unique style. Did you know that the MK2 Focus and Mazda 3 shared a platform with the Volvo C30 and S40/V50? Or that the XC60 shared a platform with the Mondeo, Landrover Freelander and Range Rover Evoque? Or that Volvo was supplying Ford and JLR engines, in particular the glorious inline 5 and oddball transverse inline 6?

Oh yes, I remember that body-in-white Jaguar, that was quickly forgotten. I don't follow these things as closely as I used to, and I'm not sure exactly what time period we are talking about when Ford wanted "Jaguar to look like an old Jaguar", but I'll point out that I guess it was early-to-mid 2000's that it seemed the US car companies were out of styling ideas and there was a retro-craze going on that included the Mustang, Thunderbird, Camaro, Challenger, as well as the Prowler, PT Cruiser and HHR. I suppose the Ford GT also falls into that category.

I also remember reading that at the time Ford sold Volvo, Volvo was no longer making any of their own engines, and had to scramble and start from scratch to have engines after the post-sale agreement for Ford to continue supplying engines expired.

 

[Big DaveBig Dave is verified member.]

Oh yes, I remember that body-in-white Jaguar, that was quickly forgotten. I don't follow these things as closely as I used to, and I'm not sure exactly what time period we are talking about when Ford wanted "Jaguar to look like an old Jaguar", but I'll point out that I guess it was early-to-mid 2000's that it seemed the US car companies were out of styling ideas and there was a retro-craze going on that included the Mustang, Thunderbird, Camaro, Challenger, as well as the Prowler, PT Cruiser and HHR. I suppose the Ford GT also falls into that category.

I also remember reading that at the time Ford sold Volvo, Volvo was no longer making any of their own engines, and had to scramble and start from scratch to have engines after the post-sale agreement for Ford to continue supplying engines expired.

And don't forget the FJ Cruiser was designed around the same time, in California.

 

[DFB]

Oh yes, I remember that body-in-white Jaguar, that was quickly forgotten. I don't follow these things as closely as I used to, and I'm not sure exactly what time period we are talking about when Ford wanted "Jaguar to look like an old Jaguar", but I'll point out that I guess it was early-to-mid 2000's that it seemed the US car companies were out of styling ideas and there was a retro-craze going on that included the Mustang, Thunderbird, Camaro, Challenger, as well as the Prowler, PT Cruiser and HHR. I suppose the Ford GT also falls into that category.

Correct, Ford had Jaguar from the early 90's till about 2008. The S-Type came first and was based on the rear-drive DEW platform that was also used for the Lincoln LS and retro Ford Thunderbird , and later on the first generation Jaguar XF in 2008. The DEW platform also donated its double wishbone rear suspension to high-spec AU Falcon's (1998 - 2002), and the 1999 - 2003 Mustang Cobra. Ford also oversaw the X-Type (Mondeo platform), the second generation aluminum XK coupe/convertible, and the aluminum 2003 XJ sedan.

Fun Fact - Jaguar and Volvo's used the same wing mirrors as the Australian FG Falcon.

I also remember reading that at the time Ford sold Volvo, Volvo was no longer making any of their own engines, and had to scramble and start from scratch to have engines after the post-sale agreement for Ford to continue supplying engines expired.

Yeah, Volvo got caught out on that one. The intention was to phase out their own engines (the inline 5 and inline 6) and replace them with Ford EcoBoost four cylinders and Ford/PSA diesels. Many models got those Ford engines, but when that fell through, Volvo ended up designing their own EcoBoost style turbo 4-cylinder engines. These replaced all previous engine capacities to a single 2.0 layout that cleverly used the same block for gas and diesel, it was then tuned to different outputs depending on model application.

The exact same thing happened to Jaguar, who used 2.0 EcoBoost gas engines in 200 and 250 hp formats. They had also been using PSA 2.2, 2.7 and 3.0 diesels. Again, when that fell through, Jaguar ended up having to design their own 2.0 engines, again in gas or diesel. The 6-cylinders were based on the 60-degree 2.5 and 3.0 Ford Duratec V6. Well, that was replaced by a 90-degree supercharged V6, created by blocking off the two rear cylinders of their 5.0 V8.

 

[DFB]

Another GM head office blunder..............................

For those that don't know, from the late 1960's, Holden had its own V8 engine. This was developed to be more cost effective than importing Chevy engines from the US. Both 253 (4.2-litre) and 308 (5.0-litre). The topic of the video shows how GM Detroit cancelled further development of the Holden V8 in 1975.

An integral GM bulletin as to why they ordered a halt to development -

"The Australian divisions' 308 cubic inch V8 development has exceeded the performance parameters established for non-premium brand engines..................." "..............There will be no Australian V8 out performing a Corvette................"

For context, the Corvette or Cadilac were never sold here, so how on earth did they determine that the plans for a 300hp 5.0 V8 that easily met upcoming emission standards was a threat to cars not even sold here? Once again, instead of learning from their Aussie outpost, the silenced them.

Holden continued to make the V8 after that 1975 memo, but from memory, it was supposed to end in 1986 when unleaded fuel arrived. However, the public uproar meant Holden had to limp it through till the 1988 VN. Those 1986 - 1988 5.0 engines only made 125 kW (168 hp), which was a mere 10 kW (13 hp) more than the 3.0 inline 6 engine they were using at the time. Instead of implementing new cylinder heads and fuel injection, they had to choke the engine to meet emission standards. I wonder at this point if that VN spec 5.0 could have appeared much earlier if GM allowed it. The Holden V8 continued on till 1999, where it was killed to make way for the Gen-III Chev V8.

It would be rude of me not include some sound clips of this engine, a true old school V8 sound that continued up to 1999.

Classics -

Not that I don't appreciate the Holden V8's existence, from what I understand most divisions of GM had their own V8 engine design. Which to me is completely idiotic when you consider how much money was wasted doing that, especially considering they were all a much of a muchness. I guess the eventual downfall of GM in 2000's is a direct result of that same blind faith mentality of the GM decision makers. Granted, by 2008 they had consolidated, but so much money was wasted on trivial pursuits.

 

[Big DaveBig Dave is verified member.]

Damn, now I miss my 5.0 VR Commodore. The day I got the exhaust done my face hurt from grinning too much as I drove back to work. So much fun to drive too, no traction control, but it did have an LSD, so it could be a handful in the wet.

This shot was taken as I was waiting to drive on to the boat to Tasmania.