is this true (clay bar)

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SirJAG

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form another forum i am a member of: (i added the highlighs)

Ford/GM/Chrysler/MB/Porsche all have service directives dating back 20+ years up to today that specifically refer to paint correction/contamination procedures and clay bar is not a referred procedure and specifically identified as a method which only removes the surface level paint contaminants and as such, the "root' of the contaminant remains continues to destroy the paint from underneath the surface layer of the paint. I can certainly send copies of these docs to anyone who would like them but......

Just remember, Mequire's clay bar is rated at 3500 grit. There much better clay bar products out there rated at much finer grits (typically 5000+)- so if you are comfortable and believe your paint needs to be wet-sanded, and that is the only and safest way to correct the flaw/issue, then do so but remember, for 90% for all paint contamination issues there are products designed to relieve/remove/neutralize the contaminants without reducing the mil thickness of the clear coat

in the past 30+ years, I have only seen one car that I actually told the owner it needed to be "clay bar".....I have personally used the recommended products, available from any auto paint supplier to remove industrial/environmental contaminents of almost all types and been successful on lacquers, enamels, acrylic enamels, laytex & urathanes. These procedures date back to 1990 and are still published in current oem paint maintenance publications/service manuals.


 
I think some one has clay bar and wet sanding mixed.

There are two types of defects above surface defects(bonded surface contamination) and below surface defects (swirls scratches RIDS)

A clay bar can not abrade the paint because the clay bar contains no abrasive materials. Now clay does come in different types of aggression. All OTC clays a very mild, then you have mild the aggressive. The more aggressive clay bars can mare the paint but certainly can't abrade the surface.

When talking about 3000 grit that's always going to be wetland and the grit of the sand paper in which you are using. When wet sanding you always want to refine your sanding marks from 1500 to 2000 to 3000 and even to 5000.
 
SirJAG said:
form another forum i am a member of: (i added the highlighs)

Ford/GM/Chrysler/MB/Porsche all have service directives dating back 20+ years up to today that specifically refer to paint correction/contamination procedures

^^^Isn't this about how long auto-clay has been in existence?^^^

clay bar is not a referred procedure and specifically identified as a method which only removes the surface level paint contaminants
and as such, the "root' of the contaminant remains continues to destroy the paint from underneath the surface layer of the paint.

^^^:iagree:^^^
Once contaminates have been "sheared-off"...Their remnants are left behind in the thickness of the top-coat paint-film.

Auto-clay was invented and intended for overspray removal.
Since then, it has been found to have other uses such as "clay-barring" paint, wheels auto-glass, etc.
Click to expand...
SirJAG said:
remember, for 90% for all paint contamination issues there are products designed to relieve/remove/neutralize
the contaminants without reducing the mil thickness of the clear coat

in the past 30+ years, I have only seen one car that I actually told the owner it needed to be "clay bar".....
I have personally used the recommended products, available from any auto paint supplier to remove
industrial/environmental contaminents of almost all types and been successful on lacquers, enamels, acrylic enamels,
laytex & urathanes. These procedures date back to 1990 and are still published in current oem paint maintenance publications/service manuals.
Click to expand...
Personal Note:
I first came to belong to the AGO forum because I recognized that this forum's members
did not eschew...rather, even had the willingness, to share information with one another.

So...
Excuse me if this seems too bold...But:
Would you be as willing to share what these products are that you have used over the years to assist
in the decontamination processes of the vehicles you have so serviced?
It would be most appreciated. Thanks.


BTW...I just hope it's not:
ts.gif



NOTE:
I've noticed that most enthusiast detailing-folks use de-con systems like:
Valugard's ABC; FinishKare 3-Step; IronX and/or others of its ilk.



En finale:
Thanks for your interesting thread-starter, Sir Jag!!


:)

Bob
 
I've clayed thousands of cars and removed a lot of above surface bonded contaminants with no problems.

Keep in mind, some contaminants might be simple contaminants like over spray paint, tree sap mist.

Other contaminants could be iron particles that are embedded into the paint and there are now remedies for these issues.

One thing for sure, if after inspecting your car's paint you feel a textured surface, then at some point, if you want to remove the offending contaminants, you're going to have to "touch" the paint with something, be it clay, Nanoskin Speedy Prep Towel, sandpaper, etc.

I'd resort to wetsanding as the last option since it's also going to remove good paint and then require compounding to remove the sanding marks. Lately we've seen an increase in posts on this forum where upon sanding "FACTORY" paint, people have exposed the basecoat in the steps that follow as they remove the sanding marks.


Yep... I'd choose wetsanding as my last option to remove some type of above surface bonded contaminant.


:)
 
I don't know many people who don't decon paint in some form.
Clay pulls embedded dirt out. Clay is not very harsh on paint considering your covering the paint with slick lube. It will be harsh if you rub it across the paint without a lubricant.
Anything that is left behind would get removed even further by compounding and polishing. You are removing clear coat thus removing anything left behind that was not removed by claying provided you polish down past where the contamination stops. I'm guessing that is impossible to see to the naked eye.
If I'm polishing I am going to either clay or use chemical decontamination. My machines and pads never touch a car that has not been decon. Your just grinding the left behind dirt right back into your paint.
I'm also pretty certain that you are never going to get 100% of stuff out of the paint but you get most of it. You can feel the difference in the paint before and after decon.
It's interesting that this is coming from car makers. I'm not sure why the even have a interest in this subject other then they want to add claying a car will void your warranty if the paint fails.
Build better cars guys and let the detailers worry about the paint correction.
 
Evan.J said:
A clay bar can not abrade the paint because the clay bar contains no abrasive materials.

Now clay does come in different types of aggression.

Sorry. But this sounds contradictory.
Click to expand...

According to the patents for auto-clay:

There really are abrasives within the: "plastic flexible-material tool" (clay)...
That can consist of:

"Hard, fine grains such as alumina, ceramics, and/or Green Carborundum. These hard, fine grains may be
in addition to or replace the aforementioned hard, fine grains of silica sand and calcium carbonate".
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Many times I've heard complaints about:
Claying causing marring...I'm sure others have too.


NOTE:
This was just a "heads-up".
Thanks for your understanding.

:)

Bob
 
FUNX725 said:
According to the patents for auto-clay:

There really are abrasives within the: "plastic flexible-material tool" (clay)...
That can consist of:

"Hard, fine grains such as alumina, ceramics, and/or Green Carborundum. These hard, fine grains may be
in addition to or replace the aforementioned hard, fine grains of silica sand and calcium carbonate".
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Many times I've heard complaints about:
Claying causing marring...I'm sure others have too.


NOTE:
This was just a "heads-up".
Thanks for your understanding.

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

Dictionary in hand!


Thanks for the clarification there Bob. :props:
 
thank you for the information guys. again, i did not write this, just cut and pasted what someone on a mustang forum had mentioned, and it seemed to conflict with what i have learned here. so i wanted to share.

JAG
 
SirJAG said:
thank you for the information guys. again, i did not write this, just cut and pasted what someone
on a mustang forum had mentioned, and it seemed to conflict with what i have learned here.

so i wanted to share.

JAG
Click to expand...
SirJag...

Out of curiosity:
Would you care to take the time to cut and paste these AGO forum's members:
"clay-responses"...to share with this particular Mustang forum's members?

(Remember: Mr. Phillips also has a post embedded herein.)

:D

Bob
 
I seriously doubt Meguiar's would still be selling clay OTC, if it was equivalent to 3500 or even 5000 grit, without some serious warnings all over the box. Who knows, I could be wrong...
 
SirJAG said:
form another forum i am a member of: (i added the highlighs)

Ford/GM/Chrysler/MB/Porsche all have service directives dating back 20+ years up to today that specifically refer to paint correction/contamination procedures and clay bar is not a referred procedure and specifically identified as a method which only removes the surface level paint contaminants and as such, the "root' of the contaminant remains continues to destroy the paint from underneath the surface layer of the paint. I can certainly send copies of these docs to anyone who would like them but......

Just remember, Mequire's clay bar is rated at 3500 grit. There much better clay bar products out there rated at much finer grits (typically 5000+)- so if you are comfortable and believe your paint needs to be wet-sanded, and that is the only and safest way to correct the flaw/issue, then do so but remember, for 90% for all paint contamination issues there are products designed to relieve/remove/neutralize the contaminants without reducing the mil thickness of the clear coat

in the past 30+ years, I have only seen one car that I actually told the owner it needed to be "clay bar".....I have personally used the recommended products, available from any auto paint supplier to remove industrial/environmental contaminents of almost all types and been successful on lacquers, enamels, acrylic enamels, laytex & urathanes. These procedures date back to 1990 and are still published in current oem paint maintenance publications/service manuals.


Click to expand...
Hmmm, we have a member on a F150 forum I belong to who likes to post this every time someone mentions clay barring a truck. He gets called out for it every time since he is known as the king of copy and paste. Wonder if its the same guy? :laughing:
 
SirJAG-- I believe the system being refered to is the ValueGard ABC decontamination system http://d41922.u33.snhosting.net/wp-content/uploads/A-B-C-Paint-Neutralization-System.pdf On their website there is a video showing how to use the products. This system is for below surface contamination as opposed to claying to remove above surface contamination, but those who use it report little to no claying is needed after the system is used.

The system is private labled by Ford and Chrysler and is also highly recommended by a number of other car companies.

I haven't used it, but those who have swear by it's effectiveness and superiority over products like Iron X

While the kit is expensive ($55) it is said to do up to 15 cars.
 
FUNX725 said:
SirJag...

Out of curiosity:
Would you care to take the time to cut and paste these AGO forum's members:
"clay-responses"...to share with this particular Mustang forum's members?

(Remember: Mr. Phillips also has a post embedded herein.)

:D

Bob
Click to expand...

Yes sir. I will.
 
ski2 said:
SirJAG-- I believe the system being refered to is the ValueGard ABC decontamination system http://d41922.u33.snhosting.net/wp-content/uploads/A-B-C-Paint-Neutralization-System.pdf On their website there is a video showing how to use the products. This system is for below surface contamination as opposed to claying to remove above surface contamination, but those who use it report little to no claying is needed after the system is used.

The system is private labled by Ford and Chrysler and is also highly recommended by a number of other car companies.

I haven't used it, but those who have swear by it's effectiveness and superiority over products like Iron X

While the kit is expensive ($55) it is said to do up to 15 cars.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this information and thank you everyone for the help.
 
Of all the humanly known paint contaminants that could "imbed" into the paint, I can think of only one, Iron Particles.

Pits, divots, death valleys, grand canyons, arroyos, I would think would be caused by other things, and of course can "maybe" be leveled with polishes-compounds.
 
Always clay!
Also a lot of auto manufactures tell you not to do anything to your cars paint.
And tire manufactures tell you not to use dressing.
I don't listen to them

Clay was a game changer, before clay we had to buff off the contaminates, no fun.
 
Speaking of Clay and the like...

What is the absolute most gentle clay that Autogeek offers? The reason being: I have found that the OTC Meguiar's clay that comes in the kit (white bar) is too harsh on my extremely soft paint (2013 Porsche 911 Cab. Black).

I would think that these are the most gentle of all clay products offered since they are marketed to the masses and not professionals or highly experienced detailers/enthusiasts.

If the clay is too harsh, then what would I need to do to remove embedded debris? I have Opti-Coat 2.0 so maybe the clay will not mar the Opti-Coat 2.0, but I hate to take a chance, especially when I have this forum for advice!
 
Silly Putty?? It works great if your have newspaper ink on your paint...
 
I've used light green clay (I believe it's pinnacle brand) which is very mild and supposedly doesn't remove your LSP. Before that I used Meguiars Mild and there was no observable marring although it was on a silver vehicle but I also got the same results on an very dark green truck. When I see people getting marring from claying it makes me wonder if they didn't wash it well or if it was a cold day. I know I wouldn't hesitate to clay any paint. Maybe I've just been lucky. I've used a medium speedy towel as well with great results although I don't believe the speedy towel makes the surface quite as smooth as the clay itself but it's certainly much quicker.
 
Just a comment...IF Meguiar's clay is equivalent 3000 sandpaper, then why has NOT marred 'the wife's' black Subaru (with its' super soft paint), that is now 13 years old?

I think someone is not educated on the value, and/or proper use of 'clay'.

Mike says it's good, well that's good enough for me.

Bill
 
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