Layering

[tiger 6]

A couple of questions about layering. Is it worthwhile regarding shine duration and appearance to layer sealants such as Klasse AIO etc? Same for carnubas such as Pinnacle Souvran etc. After using a quick detailer such as Pinnacle's Crystal Mist, does adding a "topper" of carnuba increase the longevity of the shine and appearance? If layering, how long should one wait between applications of both sealants and carnubas?
Thanks.

 

[TOGWT]

Layering:
I prefer the word ‘film’ as opposed to ‘layer’, a film more accurately describes a thinly applied sealant or wax, were as a layer tends to describe a thicker covering. Some specialty paint protection systems can have subsequent film added to increase protection and paint appearance, systems must cure or cross-link prior to application of subsequent coats. Depending on the product type, cure times vary from a few hours to days.

By applying another low-solvent product (Victoria Concours Wax on top of one that has already cross-linked you can increase its density (up to a point) two to cured applications are usually considered optimum One thing that will negate the applied product density is lack of clarity, the base coat (that contains the vehicle’s colour) is covered / protected by a clear coat of urethane paint, which as well as providing protection is clear to enable the paint colour to show through and provide the colour with depth.

Any product applied on top of the clear coat needs to be optically clear (transparent) otherwise both the paint colour and its depth of shine will be muted. One of the problems with ‘layering’ some polymers is that they tend to occlude (become less opaque) as the thickness increases

The viscosity of the previous layer requires more solvent to significantly melt away than the next applied wax layer can contain The carrier system allows the product to fill and level the paint film surface to produce a flat surface (this flat level surface is more pronounced with polymers due to their Covalent (molecular) alignment characteristics). This level surface optimises the paint film surface's desired optical properties (i.e. surface reflectance, clarity, gloss, and depth of shine)

Another ‘layering’ technique- apply a liquidCarnauba wax (liquid wax usually contains polymer and solvents) and allow to set-up (usually 1-2 hours, do a smear test to endure that its dry and then a apply to a paste Carnauba wax; allow the solvents to evaporate for 2-4 hours, and finally buff surface with a 100% cotton towel to produce jetting (a ‘wet-look’ shine)

Wax- two coats to ensure even coverage (maximum is four) a wax cures (hardens when the solvents have evaporated ) usually 25-45 minuets then you can apply the second coat (ensure that there are no solvents left by doing a smear test otherwise the solvents in the second coat will remove the first)
(See also Spit Shine)

Paste wax – use a low-solvent wax (Victoria Concours Wax, Souverän or P21S) is just a thicker form of liquid wax, just a different consistency, not necessarily more or less solvents. Some wax products use an emulsion to keep more liquid without adding solvents which, in high concentrations could remove the underlying wax too rapidly to allow the "melting" together of the wax" strata.

Polymers- most contain a mineral or silicone oils that are use as a lubrication system, in a solvent based carrier system (these may also be in the form of an oil / water emulsion) and by the nature of this product they need to vaporise / dissipate and then its needs to cross-link (this is time dependant (unless a catalyst is added) and is quite separate from the drying process

To my knowledge, all polymer sealants are based on an emulsion system containing silicone oils. Zaino Show Car Polish is the only polymer sealant that I'm aware of that is not based on the element silicone (its lubrication system is a polymer) it contains reactive resins that cross-link and provide long-term durability and can therefore be successfully layered (a new application of Zaino Show Car Polish does not remove previous applications). Zaino also has an ultra violet (UV) protection added

Solvents / oils provide a lubricant and aid the adherence process by working their way into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the previous `layer' softening it, providing each subsequent applications carrying agent (solvent, oils silicones or emulsion) are not so concentrated that they degrade or remove (as in the case of a cleaner wax) what has been previously applied.

Also be aware that the both the product and the foam pad may be non-abrasive, but application pressure if not kept to an absolute minimum and using use a very light and even pressure, may re-introduce surface marring and/or removal of the previously applied product by friction.

TOGWT ™ Copyright © 2002-2008. Jon Miller, all rights reserved​

 

[Bert31]

A couple of questions about layering. Is it worthwhile regarding shine duration and appearance to layer sealants such as Klasse AIO etc? Same for carnubas such as Pinnacle Souvran etc. After using a quick detailer such as Pinnacle's Crystal Mist, does adding a "topper" of carnuba increase the longevity of the shine and appearance? If layering, how long should one wait between applications of both sealants and carnubas?
Thanks.

Keep in mind that being an All-In-One, Klasse AIO has polishes and cleaners in it which will remove the previous layer of Klasse AIO (or anything else on the paint). In other words, you cannot layer AIO's such as Klasse AIO. However, after putting down Klasse AIO, you can put as many layers of a pure sealant such as Klasse Sealant Glaze as you wish.

 

[_M_]

TOGWT - how does polycharger affect other polymer sealents? and zaino can only be layered back to back if you add zfx correct? curious if you know the differences between zfx and polycharger

 

[ScottB]

TOGWT - how does polycharger affect other polymer sealents? and zaino can only be layered back to back if you add zfx correct? curious if you know the differences between zfx and polycharger

ZFX is a curing agent for Zaino and allows multiple layers in one session. I believe 3-5 max is still rule of thumb, although I think using this much is truly just wasted product as point of diminishing returns has reared after about 2 layers.

Polycharger was a similar product but offered more as to its added slickness, gloss and longevity. It could however be argued that allowing any sealant to properly cure would enhance its durability.

 

[_M_]

ZFX is a curing agent for Zaino and allows multiple layers in one session. I believe 3-5 max is still rule of thumb, although I think using this much is truly just wasted product as point of diminishing returns has reared after about 2 layers.

Polycharger was a similar product but offered more as to its added slickness, gloss and longevity. It could however be argued that allowing any sealant to properly cure would enhance its durability.

i understand the generic versions of what they both do, i'm actually hoping TOGWT can explain the science behind them - if he knows? he seems to have quite a bit of understanding in that realm.

certainly thank you for the reply - i did get some polycharger and 4* UPP on your recommendation. i will definitely report back on what it looks like soon (if this weather ever breaks)

 

[jfsully]

Re: Layering=TOWGT

TOWGT:

"Another ‘layering’ technique- apply a liquidCarnauba wax (liquid wax usually contains polymer and solvents) and allow to set-up (usually 1-2 hours, do a smear test to endure that its dry and then a apply to a paste Carnauba wax; allow the solvents to evaporate for 2-4 hours, and finally buff surface with a 100% cotton towel to produce jetting (a ‘wet-look’ shine)"

So we should use liquid souveran first IF we are going to attempt to layer?

Also with a soft wax hard wax combination (DoDo dbl) shouldn't the hard wax go on first?

Thanks

 

[TOGWT]

Re: Layering=TOWGT

TOWGT:

"Another ‘layering’ technique- apply a liquidCarnauba wax (liquid wax usually contains polymer and solvents) and allow to set-up (usually 1-2 hours, do a smear test to endure that its dry and then a apply to a paste Carnauba wax; allow the solvents to evaporate for 2-4 hours, and finally buff surface with a 100% cotton towel to produce jetting (a ‘wet-look’ shine)"

So we should use liquid souveran first IF we are going to attempt to layer?

Also with a soft wax hard wax combination (DoDo dbl) shouldn't the hard wax go on first?

Thanks

The basic premis is wax with the most solvent first (usually, but not always, liquid wax)

 

[TOGWT]

i understand the generic versions of what they both do, i'm actually hoping TOGWT can explain the science behind them - if he knows? he seems to have quite a bit of understanding in that realm.

certainly thank you for the reply - i did get some polycharger and 4* UPP on your recommendation. i will definitely report back on what it looks like soon (if this weather ever breaks)

I think Killerwheels has answered the question as well as I could without going into complex scientific explanations.

Polymer accelerants are common within the polymer industry (also used to chemically dry paint)

 

[_M_]

I think Killerwheels has answered the question as well as I could without going into complex scientific explanations.

Polymer accelerants are common within the polymer industry (also used to chemically dry paint)

i've read some of your posts - never seemed to stop you before about giving scientific explanations-

i actually AM looking for the scientific explanation of how zfx differs from polycharger. if you dont want to post it maybe you can PM me with the how the structure differs between the two and i can figure it out., if you know.

i was hoping you knew...you seem very knowledgeable about the make-up of these products.

i just like to try and understand how things work beyond the surface.

 

[TOGWT]

i've read some of your posts - never seemed to stop you before about giving scientific explanations-

i actually AM looking for the scientific explanation of how zfx differs from polycharger. if you dont want to post it maybe you can PM me with the how the structure differs between the two and i can figure it out., if you know.

i was hoping you knew...you seem very knowledgeable about the make-up of these products.

i just like to try and understand how things work beyond the surface.

This post on Autopia gives a marketingscientific [not a misspelling] explanation of how Polycharger works

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/polycharger.html

The only comment I would make as to it factual information is that a wax doesn't cross link no matter what you add to it

 

[ScottB]

I think it would be hard to scientifically decifer the two unless in a lab setting and truly break down the ingredients. The fact is both use some type of drying agent that speeds the curing process. At least one appears to a type of polymer to increase gloss. TOGWT ??

 

[dennish]

To my knowledge, all polymer sealants are based on an emulsion system containing silicone oils. Zaino Show Car Polish is the only polymer sealant that I'm aware of that is not based on the element silicone (its lubrication system is a polymer) it contains reactive resins that cross-link and provide long-term durability and can therefore be successfully layered (a new application of Zaino Show Car Polish does not remove previous applications). Zaino also has an ultra violet (UV) protection added

I noticed a couple of years ago the the claim of silicone free was removed for all Zaino products descriptions except the Z16 tire gloss on there website. There use to be claims all over the site about "Harmfull Silicone Based Products" and that Zaino contains NO Silicone all those statements also has been removed - what has changed???

 

[TOGWT]

I noticed a couple of years ago the the claim of silicone free was removed for all Zaino products descriptions except the Z16 tire gloss on there website. There use to be claims all over the site about "Harmfull Silicone Based Products" and that Zaino contains NO Silicone all those statements also has been removed - what has changed???

Marketing Hype = Blurring the distinction between science and fiction

Negative marketing dictated "Silicones are harmful", like many marketing statements that blur the distinction between science and fiction only SOME silicones are.

Many manufactures dropped any suggestion of silicone content from their products (the ‘bad silicone’ hype had created a monster of they could no longer control). The truth is 99% of car care products contain silicone, including the paint used on vehicles (it helps the spray gun atomize the paint, the same thing is true for most spray products) there are also better non-petroleum distillate inexpensive (relatively speaking) oils available now.

There are two ‘types’ of silicone 1. Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS) 2. (Dimethal (DMS) I’ve posted this information before -

Good Silicone / Not so good Silicone:
That a product contains hydrocarbon (petroleum) distillates does not necessarily make that product harmful but it does depend upon which petroleum distillate is used and whither it has been further distilled (purified)

a) Water - based silicone dressings - usually a milky-white liquid, (Polydimethylsiloxane (PDS)that doesn’t contain petroleum distillate; silicone oils, waxes, or solvents that can harm rubber and/or vinyl over time. Water-based dressings use a combination of natural oils and polymers to offer a non-greasy, satin finish. Some of these products also contain ultra violet radiation (UVR) blocking agents to help keep tires from cracking, fading and hardening. Most, if not all water-based dressings are environmentally friendly / biodegradable, whereas solvent-based silicone is not.

b) Solvent-based silicone dressings -usually a clear greasy liquid, (Dimethal (DMS) that contain petroleum solvents as a cleaning agent, they remove the elasticity from vinyl, rubber and paint; causing them to evaporate out of the substrate, leaving behind a dry inflexible surface. Most high gloss products are based upon DMS silicone oil, the difference between water and solvent based is in the carrier system used. Solvent based products use a hydrocarbon silicone to suspend the product. When you apply it, the solvent evaporates leaving the dressing's active ingredients (Silicone oil) behind; solvent-based silicone is not

 

[TOGWT]

I think it would be hard to scientifically decifer the two unless in a lab setting and truly break down the ingredients. The fact is both use some type of drying agent that speeds the curing process. At least one appears to a type of polymer to increase gloss. TOGWT ??

This is a SWAG (scientific wild a$$ guess; as there are approx 30,000 types of polymer and numerous combinations) An emulsion of sythetic oil /and a polymer