light orange peel turn into grainy orange peel

[builthatch]

Mike, have you ever had somewhat orange peeled factory clear come up as "grainy" after intensive polishing? it'd be a candidate for sanding at that point to loosen up the grainy looks and smooth things out to more closely match the surrounding peel. i mean, there are still apparent peaks and valleys so it could be sanded. but i'm concerned it's actually texture of the base showing itself through thin clear. DOI is grainy but not the worst since the whole car is slightly peeled from the factory. readings are not terrible but imo it's too risky to keep playing with it and the area is small enough that i'm somewhat ok with leaving it alone since it's completely free of marring and now protected (coated).

 

[FUNX650]

•Can the Base-Coat have orange peel/texture?
-In a manner of speaking: Yes.
-The underlying OEMs' paint-system film-layers usually are not individually block sanded before the CC-paint film is applied.

•But due to the CC's "flow characteristics", the orange peel effect is normally then confined to the top-most film layer:
the CC.


•It'd be interesting to know what the EPTG readings were before, and now after: the intensive polishing step(s).


Bob

 

[builthatch]

welp, i can give numbers of the surrounding areas on that panel since this is a very small area on a big panel that needed some scratch and chip repair.

current readings are 95-102 microns on the affected area and 115-122 around it, all the way up to at least at least a foot or two away. car was corrected to start so the surrounding readings might be a hair lower than stock.

closest jambs read 74-86.

i'm not trying to make it flat, i just want to make the tight, grainy peel match the rest of the panel. however, it's not worth striking through or making the clear SO thin that it's useless, even though it'll be coated. especially since it's a flat and gets really hot.

 

[Rsurfer]

welp, i can give numbers of the surrounding areas on that panel since this is a very small area on a big panel that needed some scratch and chip repair.

current readings are 95-102 mils on the affected area and 115-122 around it, all the way up to at least at least a foot or two away. car was corrected to start so the surrounding readings might be a hair lower than stock.

closest jambs read 74-86.

i'm not trying to make it flat, i just want to make the tight, grainy peel match the rest of the panel. however, it's not worth striking through or making the clear SO thin that it's useless, even though it'll be coated. especially since it's a flat and gets really hot.

Do you mean microns and not mils?

 

[builthatch]

yeah, haha, of course. sorry about that, i edited it. conference call and AG banter don't mix.

 

[Rsurfer]

yeah, haha, of course. sorry about that, i edited it. conference call and AG banter don't mix.

I would forget about it and just not look at it. I would rather have some orange peel clear than no clear.

 

[builthatch]

I would forget about it and just not look at it. I would rather have some orange peel clear than no clear.

that's how i'm feeling. but i am also curious if this is something that occurs here and there, because i've never seen it before. i know you can make orange peel more shiny if you aren't essentially blocking it down one way or another, but i've never seen it tighten up like this from polishing.

and guys i tried to take pics with just the (ample) fluorescents and while i can see it using those, i can't get the camera to pick it up. i'll fire up an LED later and see if that helps the camera discern the texture. right now the pics of that area vs. the surrounding area show no real discernible difference.

 

[FUNX650]

If the CC is ~2.0 mils = 50.8 microns
(which is considered a thick layer nowadays);
and, since OEMs recommend to remove no more than
0.3-0.5 mils = 7.62-12.7 microns, of CC...

Then:
It appears that those numbers have already been exceeded:

current readings are 95-102 microns on the affected area and 115-122 around it, all the way up to at least at least a foot or two away.

IMHO:
It's time to stop any further paint correction.

i'm not trying to make it flat, i just want to make the tight, grainy peel match the rest of the panel...

especially since it's a flat and gets really hot.

Heat, along with polish/compound-solvents that are also being introduced at the same time: Are the enemies of CC.

Sometimes they'll cause "paint expansion/swelling".
Then comes the "cool-down".

Will this result in the exposure of the
more "grainier side" of orange peel?


Bob

 

[aim4squirrels]

Is it metallic flake paint?

Metallic base coat is rough. Really rough, and it's not meant to be sanded. The clear is supposed to fill in the peaks and valleys of metallic base coat and give the vehicle it's "smoother and wet" look and feel.

The peaks of the base coat extend higher into the clear coat overlay than the valleys. Obviously, more clear coat depth would be found in the valleys than the peaks.

Is it possible you've polished down into the peaks of some of the base coat?

Honestly, I think auto manufacturers don't give two hoots as to how well the base coat is laid down, as the clear coat essentially functions like we expect Poor Boy's Black Hole or other glazes to function on swirls. Their primary concern is how little product they can get away with and that applies to both base and clear. I think the reason so many new production cars look like they have orange peel is that they don't even use enough clear to smooth out the base coat orange peel. And I highly doubt they service the robotic painters as often as should be done to keep the tips clean and producing the optimal spray patterns.

It's really frustrating to see brand new cars with OP and know there is probably not enough film build to really do anything about it. It's doubly frustrating when I look at it every morning in my garage.

 

[builthatch]

Is it metallic flake paint?

Metallic base coat is rough. Really rough, and it's not meant to be sanded. The clear is supposed to fill in the peaks and valleys of metallic base coat and give the vehicle it's "smoother and wet" look and feel.

The peaks of the base coat extend higher into the clear coat overlay than the valleys. Obviously, more clear coat depth would be found in the valleys than the peaks.

Is it possible you've polished down into the peaks of some of the base coat?

Honestly, I think auto manufacturers don't give two hoots as to how well the base coat is laid down, as the clear coat essentially functions like we expect Poor Boy's Black Hole or other glazes to function on swirls. Their primary concern is how little product they can get away with and that applies to both base and clear. I think the reason so many new production cars look like they have orange peel is that they don't even use enough clear to smooth out the base coat orange peel. And I highly doubt they service the robotic painters as often as should be done to keep the tips clean and producing the optimal spray patterns.

It's really frustrating to see brand new cars with OP and know there is probably not enough film build to really do anything about it. It's doubly frustrating when I look at it every morning in my garage.

yep, metallic. super fine metallic. it's definitely still clear coat. there is a slight remainder of some of the RID damage that i was removing that is probably about on par with the valleys of the current peel. i know i could block it a bit to get closer to the valleys but i just don't think it's worth it IF i am actually seeing texture of the base providing the peaks/valleys i'm seeing in the clear (currently). because as you've said, if it is the base providing the texture to the clear, then what if i block it and hit the peaks of the base texture? like the guys above said, it's too close for comfort because i haven't seen this happen before and haven't ever seen anyone talk about polishing peel and have it come out more grainy and actually change visual texture.

i'd never think at 100 microns i'd be this worried on a Benz which ideally should have ample paint but this isn't like repainting a Honda if i strike through. i mean that one dude on here had a SL 63 what was already sanded and hit with a rotary and then took it in for his own correction and compounded the heck out of it to get the car looking right again. this car hasn't seen anything like that.

so i'm probably going to leave it. still curious if anyone has seen this. i def will try to get some good pics up.

 

[FUNX650]

i'd never think at 100 microns i'd be this worried on a Benz...

Doesn't matter if it's a Benz, or not:

That's not 100 microns (3.937 mils) of CC that's left after the intensive polishing session.

Even if the vehicle was lucky enough to have 2.0 mils of CC to begin with...
There's probably <35 microns of CC that is actually left to last, and protect, the underlying BC, primers, etc.:
from the continual bombardment of UV-rays, and other harmful contaminates, for the remainder of their engineered service-life.


Bob

 

[builthatch]

yep, metallic. super fine metallic. it's definitely still clear coat. there is a slight remainder of some of the RID damage that i was removing that is probably about on par with the valleys of the current peel. i know i could block it a bit to get closer to the valleys but i just don't think it's worth it IF i am actually seeing texture of the base providing the peaks/valleys i'm seeing in the clear (currently). because as you've said, if it is the base providing the texture to the clear, then what if i block it and hit the peaks of the base texture? like the guys above said, it's too close for comfort because i haven't seen this happen before and haven't ever seen anyone talk about polishing peel and have it come out more grainy and actually change visual texture.

i'd never think at 100 microns i'd be this worried on a Benz which ideally should have ample paint but this isn't like repainting a Honda if i strike through. i mean that one dude on here had a SL 63 what was already sanded and hit with a rotary and then took it in for his own correction and compounded the heck out of it to get the car looking right again. this car hasn't seen anything like that.

so i'm probably going to leave it. still curious if anyone has seen this. i def will try to get some good pics up.

welp i can't get it to show up at all. i've tried every sort of lighting and camera settings and just can't get it to show up enough to contrast with the surrounding peel effect. how frustrating hahaha