Machine recommendation for soft paint (Newby)

TANTO

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Hi, first post. I’m Larry from central Ohio. Grew up building rods and choppers so I’ve rubbed/polished quite a few cars back in the 70’s and 80’s., but I still consider myself a beginner. I purchased a one year old black NSX in 93 that was covered in minor scratches. I tried the leading polished at that time and settled on 3M dark foam polishing pad glaze 05996 with 3m’s black waffle pads on an 8” air operated rotary. Took off as little as possible, but still flattened the paint down to dead flat on the horizontal surfaces. Been using Zymol Titanium wax. This combo delivers excellent results, but the paint itself is so scratch prone that it needs touch ups for the inevitable minor cobweb washing/QD scratches. Open to product changes, but to keep my posts to a reasonable length, my first question simply regards the best tool to do these polish touch-ups. Ideally a tool/system that removes less clear than the 8” rotary would be ideal as I don’t have much clear coat left (thickness gages don’t work on alum).
So first question: Is there an orbital or hybrid orbital that will give me the shine I’m used to with the perfect-it/rotary? I realize the polishing products are formulated for the heat of a rotary, so I’m very skeptical that orbitals can deliver that show quality shine without a product that is formulated specifically for it. TIA
 
Welcome to Autogeek Online! :welcome:


Sounds like a good addition to your tools would be a DA Polisher like a Porter Cable 7424XP, Meguiar's G110v2 or a Griot's Garage 6" Random Orbital Polisher.

These are all basically the same type of tool and very easy to use and a lot less aggressive than a rotary buffer.

Get some 5.5" pads and a light polish and you should be able to quickly and easily remove light toweling marks etc. and then use the same tool to machine apply the wax.

As for heat needed when buffing that's actually a misconception. Heat isn't needed to break down abrasives, it's an unwanted by-product of pressure over time.


Check these out...

Video: How to pick the right polisher

DA Polisher Articles - Help for Newbies to Machine Polishing


:buffing:
 
Welcome to the Geek!

I thought that the NSX in black of that era was a SS paint...

I would recommend 5 things for you...

Great polishing start up kit!
Griot's Garage Random Orbital Polisher & Pad Kit, Griot's Garage Random Orbital Machine, orbital polishing kit

Great compound (almost never need to fine polish after using it breaks down very nicely ready for LSP)
Meguiars Ultimate Compound, polishing compound, rubbing compound, meguiars rubbing compound, meguires, meguiars polish, auto compound polish

Great for the minor marks between polishing
Poorboys Black Hole Show Glaze can be applied any time to hide minor imperfections and to enhance gloss on black, red, and all dark vehicles.

Removes bonded in metal contaminants (use after claying)
Iron X Iron Remover, CQuartz IronX, Paint Cleaner, paint decontamination

Long lasting paint protection (aprox 2 years)
CQuartz Ceramic Quartz Paint Protection, CQuartz nano coating, nano paint sealant
 
Mike: Thanks for the quick response. I'm not sure if my question was unclear or you don't have the answer. I do have a PC orbital and have read all your excellent tutorials and soft paint thread, etc. but the tutorials don't give you qualitive or comparative results as in just how good was the shine clarity/depth/etc. The rotary with a top grade finish polish produces a show quality shine. In your experience is there a polish that works with an orbital that absolutely equals the best rotary system?. I haven't tried every polish on the market, but the ones i have tried were pretty milky compared to the very old perfect-it/rotary. I'm trying to use your experience to save me time, money and clear-coat, but perhaps you haven't done these side by sides?.

Even i know that polishes are developed for a specific surface speed and heat (at least 3m mentioned heat to me). Perfect-it for example is useless with a PC. When i researched this some time ago, no one made a product to be used with the slow speed orbitals. Has that changed i hope?

Thanks crownkote- i'd rather not go down the sealant path at this time. But i'm taking notes. Also what is an SS paint? And what is LSP? TIA
 
Mike: Thanks for the quick response. I'm not sure if my question was unclear or you don't have the answer. I do have a PC orbital and have read all your excellent tutorials and soft paint thread, etc. but the tutorials don't give you qualitive or comparative results as in just how good was the shine clarity/depth/etc. The rotary with a top grade finish polish produces a show quality shine. In your experience is there a polish that works with an orbital that absolutely equals the best rotary system?. I haven't tried every polish on the market, but the ones i have tried were pretty milky compared to the very old perfect-it/rotary. I'm trying to use your experience to save me time, money and clear-coat, but perhaps you haven't done these side by sides?.

Even i know that polishes are developed for a specific surface speed and heat (at least 3m mentioned heat to me). Perfect-it for example is useless with a PC. When i researched this some time ago, no one made a product to be used with the slow speed orbitals. Has that changed i hope?

Thanks crownkote- i'd rather not go down the sealant path at this time. But i'm taking notes. Also what is an SS paint? And what is LSP? TIA

SS= Single Stage Paint (no clear coat)
I thought I remembered The NSX got SS on the Black and Red cars until about 98 or 99 but I could be wrong...

LSP= Last Step Product the "final coat" or the "Bling Topper"

Honestly the sealants that I have been playing with recently have a great depth to them and longevity and best of all when you let them fully cure you can top it with a high quality LSP like DoDo Supernatural...

Even better thought that just came to me is get yourself some DoDo Supernatural Hybrid it is a wax that has the warmth and glow of 'nuba and the protection property's of a sealant!

As for getting that show car shine in the correction with a possibly thin clear coat (if that is the case) I would honestly recommend going with the Megs DA Micro Fiber Correction System then finish off with the DoDo Supernatural Hybrid...
 
The rotary with a top grade finish polish produces a show quality shine.

I agree, the gloss, clarity and overall finish produced by a rotary buffer is historically hard to beat. DA pads and products can come very close and then by the time you apply a quality wax, paint sealant or coating the results to the human eye are for the most part equal.

The problem with finishing out with ONLY a rotary buffer is the direct drive rotating action of the pad against the paint tends to impart a scratch pattern called rotary buffer swirls, holograms or buffer trails.

Lots of forum people claim to always be able to finish out 100% swirl free but I never read or see how they prove it. Just talk about it. Plus proving it is more complicated than most people know. You need a dark color as swirls, especially light swirls are hard to see on light colors. You need to chemically strip the finish to remove any polishing oils, fillers or carrying agents left by the last polishing step. Stripping the paint risks dulling it back down again and takes time just to prove you can do what you claim you can do. Point being is I always read about people that claim they can do it 100% of the time on every car they work on but I never see well documented write-up with pictures to prove it.


In your experience is there a polish that works with an orbital that absolutely equals the best rotary system?.

The Menzerna finishing polishes on a soft polishing pad on a DA Polisher will create a crystal clear finish without imparting any swirls. Kind of the best of both worlds.


I haven't tried every polish on the market, but the ones i have tried were pretty milky compared to the very old perfect-it/rotary. I'm trying to use your experience to save me time, money and clear-coat, but perhaps you haven't done these side by sides?.

I've used many products on the market, not all. Doing side-by-side testing is very time consuming and you have to know ahead of time exactly what you're looking for or testing for. Now throw in a huge variable like different paint systems. that's going to change everything.



Even i know that polishes are developed for a specific surface speed and heat (at least 3M mentioned heat to me).

All my life I've always read or head someone say that heat is required to break down abrasives? I've read it over and over and over again. I've never heard or read this from a chemist that makes the products. But anyone that disagrees is completely free to continue believing heat is neccassary and buff as hot as they like. I'm just trying undo the decades of confusion over the heat is necessary topic.

What breaks down a diminishing abrasive is pressure... over time... heat is not good for clear coat paints. If you're working with abrasives that don't break down then heat still isn't good for the clear coat layer of paint.


Perfect-it for example is useless with a PC.

3M's Perfect-it line is targeted at body shops where the primary tool is the rotary buffer so it only makes sense they formulate their products for rotary buffers. Now that they own Meguiar's they can let Meguiar's go after all the other tools and products and pads for them.

When i researched this some time ago, no one made a product to be used with the slow speed orbitals. Has that changed i hope?

The below article addresses the topic of slow speed orbitals... we call them wax spreaders...

The Traditional Orbital Buffer aka The Wax Spreader


Copyright ©PBMA - AutogeekOnline.net® All Rights Reserved


WaxSpreader02.jpg




The article the above link goes to pretty much shares what you can do with these old school tools. DA Polishers and tools like the Flex 3401 I would not classify as slow speed orbitals.



If you want to try something besides 3M body shop products then check out some of the finishing polishes in the Menzerna Line. Super Intensive polish is a medium polish and a very versatile polish you can use with a rotary or a DA Polisher. PO85RD is a favorite finishing polish that you can also use with a rotary or a DA Polisher.

Both have time-proven track records and huge fan bases.


:)
 
I just read this on another forum written by Todd Helme just posted today:

Todd Helme said:
Is heat good or even needed for paint correction? - 08-02-2011, 05:03 PM
If we keep in mind that polishing is a matter of science then we can dissect it. Let look at how heat affects the polishing process. Heat is a byproduct of the friction that occurs between the pad, the abrasive, and the paint. Heat is actually the energy lost according the The Law of Consevation of Energy.

So let’s look at what effects heat has on the process.

What effect does an increase in temperature effect the breakdown of the abrasive, or the rate of its break down? Like most metals, aluminum oxide (common abrasive) will become more malleable with an increase in temperature. However it would have to reach temperatures that are likely high enough to damage the paint before any real difference in application are noticeable.

In fact this can be proven by heating the abrasives with a heat gun. Aluminum oxide has a melting temperature of 3761 degrees F! While it will distort prior to reaching this temperature, it will not with any temperature we are capable of inducing with foam or wools pads on a painted surface. Simply put, the heat we are capable of producing while we polish is going to have no noticeable impact on the abrasive.

What effects does an increase in temperature have on the paint? Modern, catalyzed clear coat paints are chemically cross linked. You cannot heat them up and cause them to reflow. Drastic increases in temperature will damage the affected area permantely. Also, as the temperature of the paint increases, the paint will expand or ‘swell’.

This is unwanted because as the paint expands the sharp sides that form the sharp edge pull apart, which can round the edge. For example, place your hands together like you praying. Now, keeping your finger tips touching spread your wrists so your fingers intersect at 90 degrees. Your finger tips represent a sharp edge. To represent the paint swell, spread your hands apart. The gap between your fingers represents what is left of the sharp edge. The gap will be bridged by a rounded edge. This happens at the microscopic level, which can make defects literally disappear until the paint returns to its normal shape.

How does heat affect the pad? There is some evidence to suggest that polyester becomes softer with an increase in temperature. At first this seems like a step in the right direction, but this can easily be compensated with the huge variety polishing foams available on the market. Softer is not always better, so it could even be worded that if excessive heat is used, you might have to step up in aggressiveness to compensate. Of course the amount of change in the foam is going to be very dependent on the particular formula of that foam.

How does heat affect the lubricants in the polish? While I could see the argument that an increase in temperature increases the flow ability of the lubricant (which may or may not be a good thing de pending on the design of the polish) the increase in temperature will cause the lubricant to evaporate quicker. This could cause the polish to dry prematurely.

If we look at the areas we examined: The paint, the abrasive, the foam, and the lubricant, we have one case where the result is negligible and three where the result is negative. The abrasive will not break down faster or more evenly because of a temperature increase, nor will the paint reflow or become more workable. To me it is pretty evident that increase in temperature serves no functional benefit and several drawbacks.

:)
 
Griots 6" DA is what your going to want to order

Welcome from Memphis Larry
 
Nice article by Todd, very well researched and well-written.


One thing I know, years ago when this topic came up, and it comes up often enough to not really be a Hot Topic but frequent topic, what I would type out still hold true today...

Heat is an unwanted and unnecessary by-product of the buffing process


Somewhere along the way someone made popular the idea that heat is necessary in order to break down abrasives or anything else related to getting good results and it's just not so...

The problem however is this misinformation has taken root like a weed and that's why you'll see it pop up in detailing discussion threads all over the Internet.

Reminds me when I first joined CorvetteForum in 2002 and most of the gurus over there were always talking about the problem with swirls and scratches because the clearcoat finish on modern Corvettes is so soft... another mis-conception that has been turned around. People confused scratch-sensitive with paint hardness.

Anyone that's worked on a lot of cars, at least enough cars to have gained enough experience to be able to gauge hard paint from soft paint by doing a quick Test Spot knows the clear coat finish on modern Corvettes are not soft.. but hard. Of course that could change down the road as paint technology is always changing and car manufactures do change paint types and/or systems.


:)
 
Lots of great input to digest. FYI, NSX's have always been clear coated. The confusion comes with the red cars where they put a little of the red paint into the clear coat. They came out with some new pearl colors in the last few years. I don't know what these finishes are but i'm sure they are clear coated.

Regarding the heat, i did get that heat remark from a high level 3m guy, but it really doesn't matter because for our purposes heat is the enemy.

I have a spare door and will try the menzerna with a DA.

Regarding the ability to be swirl free- the rod community has been doing swirl free black finishes with rotarys for 50 years at least. But as Mike said, no one can do this 100% of the time. And of course fillers are/were used often. I've only had to do full polishes three times in 19 years. Two times i was able to get zero swirls although i'm sure i had a few panels that i did more than once. The last time netted some swirl marks on the sides that are still there (argg!). I think the temp/humidity was an issue. Things have to go just right. I'm crossing my fingers for a system that works with DA.

Thanks all!
 
I agree, the gloss, clarity and overall finish produced by a rotary buffer is historically hard to beat. DA pads and products can come very close and then by the time you apply a quality wax, paint sealant or coating the results to the human eye are for the most part equal.








WaxSpreader02.jpg


If you want to try something besides 3M body shop products then check out some of the finishing polishes in the Menzerna Line. Super Intensive polish is a medium polish and a very versatile polish you can use with a rotary or a DA Polisher. PO85RD is a favorite finishing polish that you can also use with a rotary or a DA Polisher.

:)
Great responses. Since all my experience has been with rotarys, i bought a 3401 from AG and just now getting around to ordering some polishes. I want to try the two or three best Menz polishes starting with the mildest and closest to the perfect it but works with DA. So ill order some 85rd for sure. Is there an issue with "old" and "new" 85? For the next coarser grade possibly needed on a DD , try 106? or an SIP. I have no cerramic clear coats, so does that mean i should skip the SIP's and PF's?. Right now i'm only interested in polishes and pads for the 3401. Is my assumption that the 3401 have the power to run 6 1/2" pads OK or should i go down to 5 1/2?" What pad colors for the 85 and 106 or whatever other polish you rec i try.

FYI all NSX's had clear coats but the early red cars had some red mixed in with the clear coat which sort of faked people out. I don't know if their paints are that soft with full thickness clear coat, but once they are polished down just a little bit they are almost impossible to wax without cobweb scratches. I was cutting pretty deep with perfect it/blk waffel pad and little to no pressure or duration(??). The rear bumper and nose however was very hard and caused me to burn the rear bumper with too much time and pressure. Should have used a coarser product on them in retrospect. Sorry for the double posts, i'm getting senile. Thanks all!
 
Great responses. Since all my experience has been with rotarys, i bought a 3401 from AG and just now getting around to ordering some polishes. I want to try the two or three best Menz polishes starting with the mildest and closest to the perfect it but works with DA. So ill order some 85rd for sure. Is there an issue with "old" and "new" 85? For the next coarser grade possibly needed on a DD , try 106? or an SIP. I have no cerramic clear coats, so does that mean i should skip the SIP's and PF's?. Right now i'm only interested in polishes and pads for the 3401. Is my assumption that the 3401 have the power to run 6 1/2" pads OK or should i go down to 5 1/2?" What pad colors for the 85 and 106 or whatever other polish you rec i try.

FYI all NSX's had clear coats but the early red cars had some red mixed in with the clear coat which sort of faked people out. I don't know if their paints are that soft with full thickness clear coat, but once they are polished down just a little bit they are almost impossible to wax without cobweb scratches. I was cutting pretty deep with perfect it/blk waffel pad and little to no pressure or duration(??). The rear bumper and nose however was very hard and caused me to burn the rear bumper with too much time and pressure. Should have used a coarser product on them in retrospect. Sorry for the double posts, i'm getting senile. Thanks all!


Lots of great info from everyone....let us know how the Menzerna line worked with your 3401. I recently stepped down from a rotary and bought a 3401....my Dewalt was a tank. With the new technology out there, I am confident I can get good results without the rotary (and with less risk). I've been using Optimum MF pads (cutting and polishing) and their hyper spray and compound. I've also toyed with their liquid compund and polishes on 5.5" LC flat pads. I've always wanted to try Menzerna with this machine, but don't have the guts to pull the trigger on three large bottles of their product. Good luck with the project.
 
As for getting that show car shine in the correction with a possibly thin clear coat (if that is the case) I would honestly recommend going with the Megs DA Micro Fiber Correction System then finish off with the DoDo Supernatural Hybrid...

Correction? With this particular car, i'm thinking super fine polish so i sort of dissed the megs system as in the old days while megs products were almost a standard, their polishes while good for most apps, didn't deliver that last bit of clarity. I didn't realize this for years until i stumbled into finess it and perfect it. It would be so great if megs and 3m really joined their engineering efforts.

So finally point of my question, am i wrong? Does the meg system deliver top shelf results on black, assuming a perfect application technique (he-he)? I understand for sure that my results may vary, but i would think there would be a body of knowledge from all the black beemers which i understand are possibly "soft". Thanks again!
 
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