Menzerna/Sonax drying, pitching polish balls, hazing, stumped. Please help :(

Chatelaine

Chatelaine

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Hey so need some help, not sure how to tackle this. This is a 91 NSK, 9000kms, all original. It is murdering all of my polishes.
Nothing seems to break down, they just dry out, and start dusting like crazy, pitch polish balls everywhere, and then it's near impossible to buff off the residue. Going to run out of Eraser trying to just get the polish off. Leaving behind hazing since nothing is glossing up, just two passes with Essence gets it 'passable' as in the last photo, but still looks less than impressive to me. I've run out of ideas. Anyone?

After wash and decontamination... omg

View attachment 59717View attachment 59716

What I've tried so far
View attachment 59722

Polish balls
View attachment 59718

Not breaking down
View attachment 59719

Leaving haze
View attachment 59720

Trunk before
View attachment 59723

Trunk after, still hazy after 2400, 3500, 3800, sonax polish, two passes of essence
View attachment 59721
 
How are you prepping, and reloading your pads?

For me, those issues come from using too much product, working the polish too long, or not changing/cleaning pads enough.

If you're not breaking the diminishing abrasives down, the finish will be hazed. If you work the polish too long, grinding removed paint particles back into it, along with dried up, gunked up residue might also haze up the finish.

With those thicker polishes, I don't do the pad priming thing. I just start with four drops of product, and reload with anywhere from two to three depending on the panel size. Then knock out the residue after every to every other section.
 
This was my first test panel for coarseness. So my pads were brand new, and unprimed. I do my typical light smiley face of polish, two little dots and one thin crescent. It most certainly isn't working it too long as it's dried up before I can get a second pass across. The polish isn't letting me work it at all. I'll try reducing even further how much I'm using but I feel it won't make a difference. I'm wondering if there's a different type of polish I need, a thin oily one. I must admit over the last maybe 8 years I've only used menzerna and worked on exotics. So this JDM car is out of my range of experience.
 
I'm with dlc and would suggest another go with your fine polishes and less product used on your polishing pads. And use a bunch of fresh pads if you have them. You look close though.

(LOVE your avatar pic btw!)
 
My comments, for what they are worth...

First Menzerna is pretty much bubba-proof. Can think of a single paint "system" it's ever failed me on. Even the stupid seal-healing paints introduced a few years ago could be fixed with Menzerna polishes.


Here's some possible issues although it sounds like you know your stuff. When I read descriptions of issues like you shared then here's three things...

1: Using too much product - This is what causes the product to roll up like a little ball on the surface. The term is called,

pilling

It's a word I learned from Mike Pennington who may have made it up himself or learned of it from the chemists who came up with the term "tick marks" to describe micro-marring. Just like to share little tidbits of car detailing info when I can and of course I never steal other guys stuff but instead give due credit where credit is due.


2: Not changing to a clean, dry pad often enough. Again, not saying this is something you're doing but this is something that is common for most people because most people don't have lots and lots of pads so they try to buff out entire cars with just a few. As the pads become soggy or saturated with product this leads to pilling and difficult wipe-off of product.


3: Can't remember the other thing I was going to mention? I typed up three things on my phone this morning and then fumbled my fingers and erased it all. If it comes to me I'll post it.



:)
 
Mike Phillips said:
If from your experience you're thinking this is super soft paint, then here's a trick I use to work through finishing out on soft paint. Means you can use a coating though...


How to avoid haze and scratching when working on soft paint?



:)
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike!

I will try this method. My initial thought was similar, and that's why I went to the Menzerna 3in1, thinking it was close is composition. But I will pick up one of your suggested cleaner waxes and have a go. Wish me luck haha

Much appreciated as always (sorry for lurking for so many years that I forgot my password/email last night lol)
 
I think this might not be a soft paint but it is rather be a "sticky paint"(which is also soft but not as much as real soft paint). In South East Asia, this is normal especially with dark color from Honda and Nissan. Even with the experienced detailers from US or EU will have problem with this. The way to solved this soft paint it something totally opposite from what you may know and answer here, but I was deal with hundreds of them and love to work with them.

Let's me ask you some questions to verify whether it is soft paint or not.
1.) Once you start buffing, even just one pass polish will dry start to stick with them, even you try to remove by towel, a film of polish still there.
2.) Once you use your bare pointing finger to rub over that area, the polish is ball up and loose from the paint and make area clearer.

If both situation occurs, you are dealing with Sticky paint.
 
Valky said:
I think this might not be a soft paint but it is rather be a "sticky paint"(which is also soft but not as much as real soft paint). In South East Asia, this is normal especially with dark color from Honda and Nissan. Even with the experienced detailers from US or EU will have problem with this. The way to solved this soft paint it something totally opposite from what you may know and answer here, but I was deal with hundreds of them and love to work with them.

Let's me ask you some questions to verify whether it is soft paint or not.
1.) Once you start buffing, even just one pass polish will dry start to stick with them, even you try to remove by towel, a film of polish still there.
2.) Once you use your bare pointing finger to rub over that area, the polish is ball up and loose from the paint and make area clearer.

If both situation occurs, you are dealing with Sticky paint.
Click to expand...


yea that sounds exactly right
 
Ok, the reason that you have problem with it is because sticky paint have ability to sucking all the lubricant from your polish, when all lubricant gone, you will now dry buffing, heat will rise and polish will stick to the paint.

Then this something you can do;

1.) Using very high lubricant and watery compound, all compound that tend to creaet lots of dust like FG400 you can forget about using it without sticking. From your Arsenal, the best polish there is 2400. If you can fidn other watery polish that would be great. For me the best polish to use with Sticky paint is Rupes UHS. UHS provide more cut than 2400 and better shine and it's very hard to dry out.

2.) Using pad that will not heat up the paint very quick, heat is enemy for us now as it will make surface hot faster and polish to be dry faster. The best pad to be use is Buff and Shine Low pro, it porvide excellent cut and generate very high air circulation. I will not recommend LC HDO as it provide much less cutting ability than Low Pro. We need excellent cutting or polishing pad as we now have to use polish that is more liquid and less cut, so mechanical cut from pad is very important.

3.) Put the car in an Airconditioning room, try to make room temperature to be less than 23 degree celcius, by this temperature panel will even cooler.

4.) Full Priming the pad not just that smiley prime, I means priming with and old school method. Thee reason is because once the paint sucking in all the lubricant from the 2-3 dots that we put in, we still have lots of lubricant hiding in the pad to help lubricate.

5.) You have to polish them with the method that crete less heat as much as possible, faster hand moving and "no pressure" unluckily you are using Flex 3401 which require you to put pressure for them to cut, you have to find method that not generate heat to surface by yourself.

6.) Polish only a few passes not until polish dry out or clear, make it as watery as much as you can.

With all this method you are now good to go with all Sticky paint in the world.
 
If it turns out to be really soft i would try searching "finishing with H205 from Kevin Brown" it is a great way to finish really soft paint with water mixed with m205 and a soft pad. Seems like a great thing to try when having a really tough time finishing a paint.
 
Valky....Thank you for your advice. Would a SMAT polish work better so that you can keep your session short and not have to worry about whether the polish has broken down?
 
Valky said:
I think this might not be a soft paint but it is rather be a "sticky paint"(which is also soft but not as much as real soft paint). In South East Asia, this is normal especially with dark color from Honda and Nissan. Even with the experienced detailers from US or EU will have problem with this. The way to solved this soft paint it something totally opposite from what you may know and answer here, but I was deal with hundreds of them and love to work with them.

Let's me ask you some questions to verify whether it is soft paint or not.
1.) Once you start buffing, even just one pass polish will dry start to stick with them, even you try to remove by towel, a film of polish still there.
2.) Once you use your bare pointing finger to rub over that area, the polish is ball up and loose from the paint and make area clearer.

If both situation occurs, you are dealing with Sticky paint.
Click to expand...


:iagree: Exactly this. I see a few cars & SUVs with "sticky paint" over the course of a year but luckily not too many because they're a PITA!!!

For me & what I've experienced - I usually have good success with a good quality cleaner wax or a finishing polish, coupled with a soft foam pad, & 99% of the time, (unless the paint is that hammered that even if it wasn't "sticky paint" it'd be a waste of time) the finish turns out pretty nice. Chances are perfection isn't what you're working towards on a car with "sticky paint" in any case.

Please do follow up on this one & post your findings for us. :xyxthumbs:

Aaryn NZ. :dblthumb2:
 
I stumbled across this video the other day about sticky paint and Jason Rose working on it.

 
Valky said:
Ok, the reason that you have problem with it is because sticky paint have ability to sucking all the lubricant from your polish, when all lubricant gone, you will now dry buffing, heat will rise and polish will stick to the paint.

Then this something you can do;

1.) Using very high lubricant and watery compound, all compound that tend to creaet lots of dust like FG400 you can forget about using it without sticking. From your Arsenal, the best polish there is 2400. If you can fidn other watery polish that would be great. For me the best polish to use with Sticky paint is Rupes UHS. UHS provide more cut than 2400 and better shine and it's very hard to dry out.

2.) Using pad that will not heat up the paint very quick, heat is enemy for us now as it will make surface hot faster and polish to be dry faster. The best pad to be use is Buff and Shine Low pro, it porvide excellent cut and generate very high air circulation. I will not recommend LC HDO as it provide much less cutting ability than Low Pro. We need excellent cutting or polishing pad as we now have to use polish that is more liquid and less cut, so mechanical cut from pad is very important.

3.) Put the car in an Airconditioning room, try to make room temperature to be less than 23 degree celcius, by this temperature panel will even cooler.

4.) Full Priming the pad not just that smiley prime, I means priming with and old school method. Thee reason is because once the paint sucking in all the lubricant from the 2-3 dots that we put in, we still have lots of lubricant hiding in the pad to help lubricate.

5.) You have to polish them with the method that crete less heat as much as possible, faster hand moving and "no pressure" unluckily you are using Flex 3401 which require you to put pressure for them to cut, you have to find method that not generate heat to surface by yourself.

6.) Polish only a few passes not until polish dry out or clear, make it as watery as much as you can.

With all this method you are now good to go with all Sticky paint in the world.
Click to expand...

This is the reason AGO rocks!
 
Valky! Nice CALL :)

As soon as I read the description, I was thinking sticky paint. I think you are spot on and think your reasoning and explanations are spot on!

1.) Using very high lubricant and watery compound, all compound that tend to creaet lots of dust like FG400 you can forget about using it without sticking. From your Arsenal, the best polish there is 2400. If you can fidn other watery polish that would be great. For me the best polish to use with Sticky paint is Rupes UHS. UHS provide more cut than 2400 and better shine and it's very hard to dry out.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

5.) You have to polish them with the method that crete less heat as much as possible, faster hand moving and "no pressure" unluckily you are using Flex 3401 which require you to put pressure for them to cut, you have to find method that not generate heat to surface by yourself.
Click to expand...

This was my other thought. The tool choice here is the wrong choice. I would't recommend any gear-driven tool (unless operated with such little pressure and speed as to be ineffective). The best movement for this paint is random orbital.


Since you hit most of the points I was prepared to type... let me add my own...
7) Filling.... Because every compound and lubricant is absorbing "into" the surface, each one with have the potential to fill the paint. Even wiping with a prep-wipe may not remove all of the lubricant which is the pores of the paint. It may require some time to 'out gas' before you can see the true condition of the paint.
 
Chatelaine said:
Thanks Mike!

I will try this method. My initial thought was similar, and that's why I went to the Menzerna 3in1, thinking it was close is composition. But I will pick up one of your suggested cleaner waxes and have a go. Wish me luck haha

Much appreciated as always (sorry for lurking for so many years that I forgot my password/email last night lol)
Click to expand...

I don't know if this would help I'm no expert but I really like Mckee's polishing pad conditioner. I think it helps a lot when you are starting with a fresh pad
 
DBAILEY said:
Valky....Thank you for your advice. Would a SMAT polish work better so that you can keep your session short and not have to worry about whether the polish has broken down?
Click to expand...

Nope, SMAT won't help any as the problem here is that paint will suck all lubrication pretty quick leaving you to only dry buff. Many people said using detailer, pad conditioning, water etc to aid in polish. None would ever work on a true sticky paint. Even for a high lubrication compound or polish could be stick and dry to the paint if polishing too long or create too much heat.
 
Aaryn NZ said:
:iagree: Exactly this. I see a few cars & SUVs with "sticky paint" over the course of a year but luckily not too many because they're a PITA!!!

For me & what I've experienced - I usually have good success with a good quality cleaner wax or a finishing polish, coupled with a soft foam pad, & 99% of the time, (unless the paint is that hammered that even if it wasn't "sticky paint" it'd be a waste of time) the finish turns out pretty nice. Chances are perfection isn't what you're working towards on a car with "sticky paint" in any case.

Please do follow up on this one & post your findings for us. :xyxthumbs:

Aaryn NZ. :dblthumb2:
Click to expand...

Aaryn,
In my country Honda is number 1 selling passengers car and all dark colors combine is more than 50% of their sale. I have no choice but to make them perfect eventhough it got a big time hammer. Believe me you can make Sticky paint perfect, it's just not a one day job and it's a PITA as you say.
 
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