New car salesmen...why

[opie]

Where are you guys getting your invoice cost data?

I asked the salesman for the invoice on the vehicle we were looking at

 

[DFB]

I was told by a fella at a gm dealership that there was talks of buick bringing back a car. Dont know if its crediable or not

Ford have also signalled a return to small cars again.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Ford have also signalled a return to small cars again.

I guess what goes around comes around, or whatever is old is new again....or something.

 

[opie]

Ford have also signalled a return to small cars again.

Probly going to be stupid turbo or hybrid. I wish they would bring back push button controls and no tv screens. Its way more distracting while driving. They want to pull you over and fine you for people that drive while using thier phone. Yet the touch screens are just as bad.

 

[Silly Rabbit]

Would love to see a simple no frills vehicle, gas powered. Oh wait! There are - were - millions of them. Then there was a push to destroy them all. Now we have vehicles that will require a subscription for a heated seat? Is this crazy world? Why yes it is.
If you see an older vehicle in good shape, think about buying it. Simple to work on, simple to drive, simple to love.

 

[DFB]

Probly going to be stupid turbo or hybrid. I wish they would bring back push button controls and no tv screens. Its way more distracting while driving. They want to pull you over and fine you for people that drive while using thier phone. Yet the touch screens are just as bad.

The hurt from killing small cars is going to show up very soon, if not already. The profit margin certainly wasn't there, but those sales helped set up future sales - sales that would indeed offer more profit. Ford and GM basically handed those loss-leader sales to the Asian car companies. In Australia, the Chinese car companies have flourished because the established players no longer wanted to sell small cars. News flash, not everyone want/needs/can afford larger vehicles. So where do those customers go....................straight into the arms of the Chinese.

Let's set up a possible scenario here -

A young driver buys their first brand new car, something economical to get them to work, study and weekend sport. Let's say a Ford Focus. That person gets older, starts earning more money, perhaps starts driving more for work, maybe a family is in the picture. What's the first brand that person looks at for a new car, Ford. Let's say they bought a loaded Explorer, the relationship built with the cheap car led to a repeat sale on a more profitable one. And even if they didn't end up buying a Ford, at least Ford were in the picture.

See the problem here? With no entry to the brand, buyers go elsewhere. How does that saying go? "Keeping an existing customer is significantly cheaper than acquiring a new one." Ford, GM, Chrysler/FCA/Stallantis/Purple-Monkey-Disco-Car-Company have p.ssed that away. And now they want to return to that and have to spend another decade winning back customers, in which time they will likely change tact AGAIN. And that's where Toyota and Hyundai have excelled, no knee jerk reactions, just quiet consistency that's built a massive returning customer base.

 

[Desertnate]

Isn't it also based on what the consumers want? The Ford F-150 has been the best-selling vehicle in the US for the last 44 years. Similarly, as I understand it, people want SUV's, not cars, which is why GM has largely retreated from the car market (no Buicks, Chevy only has the Corvette, and Caddy has 2 cars vs. 5-6 SUV's depending on how you count the Escalades). Ford also has no vehicles that aren't a truck or SUV other than the Mustang.

I remember some years ago watching an interview of a Hyundai marketing exec speaking at a new-vehicle introduction and he noted that the market was shifting away from cars to SUV's and that they were behind the curve in their SUV offerings (at that time).

That is certianly a factor, and SUV's/trucks have outsold cars for quite some time. However, I did see the other day that Accord and Camary prices have taken off unexectidely this year

My comments were more around just the US domestic automakers. They rode the trend to the extreme when they saw they could chase bigger profit margins with larger vehicles (IMO). The Europeans and Asians still build cars that sell, though not in the numbers in the past, and the US automakers have left that part of the market completely.

 

[Desertnate]

I was told by a fella at a gm dealership that there was talks of buick bringing back a car. Dont know if its crediable or not

I would expect that to be a made-in-China vehicle, Buick is (was?) a very popular brand in China and when they were still making sedans here, they said the styling etc. was driven by the Chinese market (where Buick still makes sedans).

I think that is the only way they could pull it off unless GM starts up another car platform here in the US. If the rumor is true, it may be on hold due ot the tarrif situation. I don't follow anything regarding Buick, but do wonder how they are doing since their small SUV's are Chinese built.

 

[Desertnate]

Where are you guys getting your invoice cost data? I see Edmunds doesn't really seem to be showing that anymore. That was how I got my first lesson in car pricing, was when I bought my first new car and made an appointment with the sales manager, and I came in and told him what I wanted and asked what the best price he could give me. He said "I see you have your Edmunds book there so I won't beat around the bush..."

I've always found it online, but it has become much harder since the madness of the auto market circa 2020~2022. I've also had some dealers show me on their "fact sheet" of the vehicle. When I bought my BRZ, the Subaru dealer had this itemized sheet which showed MRSR, Invoice, and the exact cost of every installed option; pretty nice

If I was to shop for anything new today, I'd just start with how far below MSRP I could get.

I helped a friend buy a new car recently. It was a cash sale.
However the saleswoman insisted we fill out a credit app. When I refused she said if I could just show her proof of insurance for my own personal car she would knock another $500 off the price.
It was all so bizarre I told my friend we were leaving.
The sales manager quickly emerged and started talking his bullshit saying they would really like to make this sale even if it meant them losing money.
I told him ok. Had my friend write a check for $500 less than we had already agreed on and told him to take it or leave it.
45 minutes later we drove off with the vehicle.
After I got home I asked Grok what this was all about. It turns out they thought we might have been laundering money.
We of course were not, but makes me wonder what business is it of theirs if we were

A year or two ago, I read an article from a professional car buyer and he remarked that he never advized his client to do cash buys any more. The way to get a much cheaper vehicle was to buy it on a car loan and immediatly pay it off before the first month's payment hit. The dealers will go much lower on the price on the car because they know they will make up the profit loss in bonuses from the financing. There is the fear, as you mention, of some criminal activity leading to cash purcheses as well. I good friend was a sales manager at a Chevy dealership for many years and the only people who ever came in with a cash purchse were typically people they knew by reputation to have ties to organized crime, or drugs...or both. Even fleet/business sales were often financed in some fashion.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I've always found it online, but it has become much harder since the madness of the auto market circa 2020~2022. I've also had some dealers show me on their "fact sheet" of the vehicle. When I bought my BRZ, the Subaru dealer had this itemized sheet which showed MRSR, Invoice, and the exact cost of every installed option; pretty nice

If I was to shop for anything new today, I'd just start with how far below MSRP I could get.

I did find some places that said that you could get the invoice price for "free", but you had to sign up...which to me isn't really free since they are trading some information about you for it.

I hate the car buying process, so I generally don't like to shop multiple dealers, that's why I like to know what their cost is (with all the caveats of course) so I can judge whether they are making a fair offer. As you noted, KBB and Edmund's seem to go by the "this is what other people in your area are paying" as a way to judge.

I good friend was a sales manager at a Chevy dealership for many years and the only people who ever came in with a cash purchse were typically people they knew by reputation to have ties to organized crime, or drugs...or both.

Yeah, but that's cash cash, if I say I'm going to pay "cash" for a car that means I'm not going to finance it.

 

[Desertnate]

See the problem here? With no entry to the brand, buyers go elsewhere. How does that saying go? "Keeping an existing customer is significantly cheaper than acquiring a new one." Ford, GM, Chrysler/FCA/Stallantis/Purple-Monkey-Disco-Car-Company have p.ssed that away. And now they want to return to that and have to spend another decade winning back customers, in which time they will likely change tact AGAIN. And that's where Toyota and Hyundai have excelled, no knee jerk reactions, just quiet consistency that's built a massive returning customer base.

Spot on. No young person starting out on their own in any profession will be stepping up to a $60K+ behemoth truck if they want something new. Some are, but they are taking out ridiculously long loans at horrible interest rates for a vehicle they will be upside down on very quickly.

 

[Desertnate]

Yeah, but that's cash cash, if I say I'm going to pay "cash" for a car that means I'm not going to finance it.

And those are the people they worry about because most of the people doing that these days are using dirty money. His truly wealthy, repeate clients who were "clean" would just lease a vehicle for a year, maybe two, and then flip it for something else. They could buy it outright on the spot, but they don't.

 

[Silly Rabbit]

I helped a friend buy a new car recently. It was a cash sale.
However the saleswoman insisted we fill out a credit app. When I refused she said if I could just show her proof of insurance for my own personal car she would knock another $500 off the price.
It was all so bizarre I told my friend we were leaving.
The sales manager quickly emerged and started talking his bullshit saying they would really like to make this sale even if it meant them losing money.
I told him ok. Had my friend write a check for $500 less than we had already agreed on and told him to take it or leave it.
45 minutes later we drove off with the vehicle.
After I got home I asked Grok what this was all about. It turns out they thought we might have been laundering money.
We of course were not, but makes me wonder what business is it of theirs if we were

Here's a little insight of whats to come about the old ways of buying. For up here, but probably everywhere.

 

[yakky]

It's hard to argue with that F-150 sales number...since 1981....when the minivan hadn't been invented yet, nor had the term SUV been coined. I would contend that the public buys what it wants, not what the manufacturers want to sell them. In that whole period from 1981 to now, the manufacturers have wanted to sell vehicles that would help their CAFE numbers, and what did the public want to buy? Not that.

I mean that whole time the car companies were trying to tell the Gov't that people didn't want to buy small ICE cars, hybrid cars, electric cars, and so they couldn't meet their CAFE numbers. I mean sure, the mfrs want to sell profitable vehicles, but I still contend the customers are driving the market.

I don't think you can say the public buys what they want. The public is amazingly driven by advertising and product placement in pop culture. I think GM spends over 3 billion per year on ads. And the F150 of yesterday was a vehicle people only bought because they needed it. Now people buy it as a status symbol. This goes way back, but take a look a the marketing applied to the Pinto and Citation. Two really bad cars that sold like hotcakes, until the public realized what they were and sales fell off a cliff. That just just reminded me of the Neon, another small car with tons of marketing thrown at it, and it sold like hotcakes...for a little while.

And a funny personal story, a few years back I was getting gas in my Volt and a guy driving a truck got so excited about it, asked me all sorts of questions. Then he said he really wanted one but his buddies would make fun of him for driving a small car....

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Chicken or egg...do people buy trucks because the car companies advertise them...or do the car companies advertise them because people want to buy trucks and the mfrs have big ad budgets to convince the public to buy THEIR truck?

Oh, PS, people bought Pintos and Neons because they were cheap (I think the Chevette would be the apt GM vehicle in this instance, rather than the Citation), not because of the marketing. That's my view on it, anyway.

 

[yakky]

Chicken or egg...do people buy trucks because the car companies advertise them...or do the car companies advertise them because people want to buy trucks and the mfrs have big ad budgets to convince the public to buy THEIR truck?

It is some chicken/egg, but look at the spending, when is the last time you saw an ad for a small car? I see ads for the big trucks all the time. The best was the Escalade one with the Who Eminence Front song.. boy was that funny, I guess they think most of the public doesn't even know what that song means, but it was perfectly matched to the Escalade!

 

[yakky]

800k in the first year, that's on par with the current F series, the entire line!

 

[Desertnate]

And a funny personal story, a few years back I was getting gas in my Volt and a guy driving a truck got so excited about it, asked me all sorts of questions. Then he said he really wanted one but his buddies would make fun of him for driving a small car....

The peer pressure and judgment are real. A few years ago, I needed to travel a short distance to a meeting with an older guy who worked for me at the time, so I volunteered to drive. When we got to the coupe I owned at the time, he gave my car a funny look and as he sat down he huffed something like, "Why don't you drive a truck?". I came up with some nice reply and spared him with the long list of "why".

 

[Eldorado2k]

I wonder if the Sales manager even knows the full picture.

I’ve been driving Uber part time lately, and just yesterday I gave a ride to a young guy and once he got in and I clicked on the gps it informed me to drop him off at a Lexus dealership, so that immediately popped my interest and my 1st question to him was “so do sell cars”?

His response was “no actually I don’t, and I would never want to be one of those guys”
He got into explaining why and the reason was that car dealers have it the worst because while they’re made to appear as if they’re the ones who make the deals they actually have zero power to do anything and in reality get yelled at and told what to do from several different people all day long.

And at least as far as the used vehicles they sell at the dealership, it’s the sales manager that knows everything about what those cars can and will eventually sell for because they’re the ones who go to the auctions and buy those cars and have a set price of what they’re willing to sell them for and the car dealer has zero authority to make any decisions on anything when it comes to the selling price.

He said the sales managers are such pricks that even he can’t get a friendly enough deal on a used car to buy from them and he freaking works there! Lol.

Moral of the story was that car salesmen aka dealers have absolute zero power to do anything when it comes to giving you a better price on a vehicle because it’s the sales managers who make those decisions not the car dealers.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Moral of the story was that car salesmen have absolute zero power to do anything when it comes to giving you a better price on a vehicle because it’s the sales managers who make those decisions not the (salesmen).

Did you really expect it to be any other way?