Newbie ? Whats the advantage of using Diminishing Abrasive Polishes ?

[Submariner]

Having seen a Kevin Brown video where he says one has to work some polishes until they break down the abrasive particles until they are at their smallest.

I am a bit confused, by this technology.

I understand that, the 3M Polishes that I bought (Perfect it III Extra Fine and the Ultrafina SE ) dont break down, so one chooses the right product and pad to address the specific situation. I get that logic.

The only advantage I can see in using diminishing abrasive polishes is one could use one product rather than 2.
But the negatives are as you add polish, you would effectively be adding an unknown quatitiy of a more abrasive compound than the “worked” stuff already on the panel.

Surely for consistency reasons, its easier to be working with a known level of cut, where the only change is say when the pad gets clogged with paint residue. I.e. to resolve it ... just clean or replace the pad?

Or am I missing something?

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I'm not aware that the two 3M polishes you mention "don't break down". That would make them "SMAT" (Super Micro Abrasive Technology, a Meguiar's term), rather than "DAT" (Diminishing Abrasive Technology, a term coined after Meguiar's came out with SMAT).

Abrasive technology has changed a lot in the last 10 years or so, and Mike Phillips' recommendation has recently been to not worry about whether your polish is SMAT or DAT (as these are marketing terms, not technical ones).

As far as your comment about with a DAT polish, being able to use one product rather than two, since you're a Kevin Brown fan, he's famous for using M205 as compound, IIRC. I think you're overthinking this a bit, I'm not sure how new your bottles of 3M are, and when was the last time they were reformulated, but the whole "breaking down the abrasive" was more of a compounding issue, where if you used a compound and didn't break it down fully, it could leave marring that might not be able to be removed by your subsequent polishing steps.

Anyway, since the longer I drone on, the more incoherent I seem to be getting, I'm going to stop now.

 

[Toolhead]

i agree with overthinking it ...its good to know but i wouldnt dwell on it.

the dat is good to know while you are sweating and cursing doing the 6 pass mike method...keeps you honest to do at least 5 passes lol

id buy 1 of the tier 1 polishing lines and simply follow mikes how to polish posts....

this will reduce mental fatigue from overthinking technology during a brutal poloshing day

if you are staying with the 3m stuff...just make sure you have their complete system and again follow mikes pots on how to machine polish

i started using 3 pads per polish step...as of this weekend...i chaged up to 4 pads using a pad brush after each panel

short story..buy a system that you have confidence in and then use a process that you have confidence in ..crank the radio and start sweating...

 

[Toolhead]

if u r looking for a 1 step process..mcheck out the aios...mike just reviewed the BF aio which has me thinking about it

 

[BudgetPlan1]

It does bring up something regarding the dimpled CCS pads that I *thought* I read here at some point, that being using DAT products with those pads that 'stored' polish in the dimples.

The polish on the flat parts of pad gets worked thru its cycle while periodically the dimples release product that still needs to be worked thru.

I thought closed cell pads were especially kind to DAT products as the cell structure kept the product on the surface as opposed to soaking into the cell structure of the pad, to be released later and dimples exaggerate this condition?

I dunno, likely overthinking.

 

[Submariner]

if u r looking for a 1 step process..mcheck out the aios...mike just reviewed the BF aio which has me thinking about it

Hi
No I am not looking for a one step process. In a way I prefer the route if picking the least abraisive possible and if it works thats great, and if it needs more agressive attention, then move to a more agressive pad and polish.

Luckily the S Class Coupe has what I call nice “glassy flat” paintwork with minimal orange peel, like say one gets on the C Class or level entry MB cars. Always made me wonder do they polish the S Class ones ..?
I Cant imagine they have a different paint or spray equipment for different ranges?

 

[Submariner]

i agree with overthinking it ...its good to know but i wouldnt dwell on it.

the dat is good to know while you are sweating and cursing doing the 6 pass mike method...keeps you honest to do at least 5 passes lol

id buy 1 of the tier 1 polishing lines and simply follow mikes how to polish posts....

this will reduce mental fatigue from overthinking technology during a brutal poloshing day

if you are staying with the 3m stuff...just make sure you have their complete system and again follow mikes pots on how to machine polish

i started using 3 pads per polish step...as of this weekend...i chaged up to 4 pads using a pad brush after each panel

short story..buy a system that you have confidence in and then use a process that you have confidence in ..crank the radio and start sweating...

Thanks for the info.
I did pick the 3M range, hopeing, that they would produce quality stuff, correct level of research behind the formulas etc.

The techy at 3M said that one Pad would do the Mercedes S Class Coupe for each level of cut or polish, but to buy a two-pack just incase, when using the Extrafine Plus Polish and the Ultrafina SE final gloss polish ( i.e. the least agressive yellow and blue varients) . She reckoned one would probably need 2 pads per car using the Green Compound due to the increased paint residue.
And recomended frequent pad cleaning with compressed air or special brush in all cases.

So I was a bit gutted when you said you used 4 Pads per type of polish ... hmmm thats quite expensive. I.e. £44 rather than the envisaged £11 per pad for the Extra fine cut and the Ultrafina Se.

As I am only just trying to remove a very few light swirls and give it that uber shiny finish, would I need to use 4 pads per polish level?

How does a newbie know its time to change or wash a pad? Does it just stop cutting effectively or are there other adverse effects of not trashing the pad in time?

Or is it one of those obvious things when you do it, that you easily see it just is not working as well as it was?

 

[Finick]

My experience with DAT abrasives is pretty slim, with Meguiars Diamond Cut Compound being the first I used something like 10 years ago, and now more recently the entire line of Pinnacle products.

I like the Pinnacle line. I’ve never had it not work, and I’ve especially never had the advanced finishing polish not deliver. Advanced Compound and Advanced Swirl Remover also knock it out of the park every time I use them. My only issue with the line is the price, it’s crazy expensive especially considering the alternatives out there.

My main issue with using a DAT polish or compound is that I don’t want to feel like I’m missing out on something by not doing “enough” passes. I really dislike it, and it’s probably overthinking it, but I can’t ignore it for some reason.

The two SMAT style polishes I like the most are Griots Garage Perfecting Cream, and HD Polish+. Both easily finish down as nice as Pinnacles AFP, at a much lower price point. I’ve used Meguiars M205 and not had great results with it, but I still have a quart of it around and do a test spot with it every time I polish (haven’t had any luck yet.)

I also can do as few passes necessary to get the job done. I recently polished out my hood and all it took me was 2 passes at a pretty moderate arm speed to clean it up.

All that being said.. I don’t really think that price matters much for an enthusiast. A 16oz bottle of quality compound/polish (whether Pinnacle, Wolfgang, Meguiars, 3D, GG, etc) would last someone doing their own cars for a very long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Submariner]

I'm not aware that the two 3M polishes you mention "don't break down". That would make them "SMAT" (Super Micro Abrasive Technology, a Meguiar's term), rather than "DAT" (Diminishing Abrasive Technology, a term coined after Meguiar's came out with SMAT).

Abrasive technology has changed a lot in the last 10 years or so, and Mike Phillips' recommendation has recently been to not worry about whether your polish is SMAT or DAT (as these are marketing terms, not technical ones).

As far as your comment about with a DAT polish, being able to use one product rather than two, since you're a Kevin Brown fan, he's famous for using M205 as compound, IIRC. I think you're overthinking this a bit, I'm not sure how new your bottles of 3M are, and when was the last time they were reformulated, but the whole "breaking down the abrasive" was more of a compounding issue, where if you used a compound and didn't break it down fully, it could leave marring that might not be able to be removed by your subsequent polishing steps.

Anyway, since the longer I drone on, the more incoherent I seem to be getting, I'm going to stop now.

Thanks for your info.
The 3M techy said the 3M products didnt break down, like say the Meguires DATs ( quoting they owned Meguaires).
So I guess they are SMAT.

I only wanted to kniw as I am looking to take off the absolute minimal amount of clearcoat.
And being a newbie, yes I admit I am scared of removing too much.

The techy did say with a relative low speed DA like my Makita, even in Forced rotation mode; one would almost have to deliberately set out to damage hard Mercedes paintwork. He just said to be careful of edges.
Keep the polish live, and never let it dry out, prime the pad and you will be safe!
Would you agree?

 

[Submariner]

My experience with DAT abrasives is pretty slim, with Meguiars Diamond Cut Compound being the first I used something like 10 years ago, and now more recently the entire line of Pinnacle products.

I like the Pinnacle line. I’ve never had it not work, and I’ve especially never had the advanced finishing polish not deliver. Advanced Compound and Advanced Swirl Remover also knock it out of the park every time I use them. My only issue with the line is the price, it’s crazy expensive especially considering the alternatives out there.

My main issue with using a DAT polish or compound is that I don’t want to feel like I’m missing out on something by not doing “enough” passes. I really dislike it, and it’s probably overthinking it, but I can’t ignore it for some reason.

The two SMAT style polishes I like the most are Griots Garage Perfecting Cream, and HD Polish+. Both easily finish down as nice as Pinnacles AFP, at a much lower price point. I’ve used Meguiars M205 and not had great results with it, but I still have a quart of it around and do a test spot with it every time I polish (haven’t had any luck yet.)

I also can do as few passes necessary to get the job done. I recently polished out my hood and all it took me was 2 passes at a pretty moderate arm speed to clean it up.

All that being said.. I don’t really think that price matters much for an enthusiast. A 16oz bottle of quality compound/polish (whether Pinnacle, Wolfgang, Meguiars, 3D, GG, etc) would last someone doing their own cars for a very long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the input, most useful
And I get your reasoning on cost if an occaisional user amortises the price difference !
What counts is does it do it properly and easily

 

[Toolhead]

i would recommend reading mikes how to polish posts.

i would gander a 3m tech is handling multiple product lines and may or may not have ever machine polished a car.

regarding pad usage....good metaphor..have you ever tried to remove wax haze using 1 towel?

it clogs up pretty fast...same with pads...

plan on at least 3 pads minimum for each polish stage...
i eyeball 25% of car now per pad...
your eyes will tell you when the pads start clogging and filth builds up

buy pad cleaner ..i use wg...spray a few sprays and let pad sit for 5 mins before bucket dunk.

the initial investment for machine polishing is a chunk of change but after that...the costs levels out to consummables cost

 

[Toolhead]

Thanks for your info.
The 3M techy said the 3M products didnt break down, like say the Meguires DATs ( quoting they owned Meguaires).
So I guess they are SMAT.

I only wanted to kniw as I am looking to take off the absolute minimal amount of clearcoat.
And being a newbie, yes I admit I am scared of removing too much.

The techy did say with a relative low speed DA like my Makita, even in Forced rotation mode; one would almost have to deliberately set out to damage hard Mercedes paintwork. He just said to be careful of edges.
Keep the polish live, and never let it dry out, prime the pad and you will be safe!
Would you agree?

if you have everything to polish..id recommend just jumping into the process...take an extra 20 mins and watch mikes posted video on how to machine polish with a flex which you can use for your process guidance

 

[dlc95]

One thing I like about a diminishing abrasive buffing liquid, is that they tend to finish out more consistently on just about any paint surface one may come across.

Conversely, I like that I only need a pass or two to finish out with a SMAT polish, like Meguiar's M205, or Ultimate Polish.

I had one situation where I wasn't able to finish out well with M205, and used Menzerna PF2500 instead, which took care of the damage, and finished out to a high gloss, clear finish. The problem I had with M205 was a small amount of d/a hazing.

I've recently done that car again, and went at it with M205 with no issue. I have no idea how that happened!

On the cutting end, a product like Menzerna HC400 has clumps of SMAT abrasives to start the cutting process. As you go through the buffing process, these clumps break apart, which allows for great finishing, and sustained cut.

 

[DaveT435]

Hi
No I am not looking for a one step process. In a way I prefer the route if picking the least abraisive possible and if it works thats great, and if it needs more agressive attention, then move to a more agressive pad and polish.

Luckily the S Class Coupe has what I call nice “glassy flat” paintwork with minimal orange peel, like say one gets on the C Class or level entry MB cars. Always made me wonder do they polish the S Class ones ..?
I Cant imagine they have a different paint or spray equipment for different ranges?

Some of the Mercedes do have Ceramiclear paint which is different. I'm not framiliar enough with MB to tell you which ones.

 

[dlc95]

Thanks for your info.
The 3M techy said the 3M products didnt break down, like say the Meguires DATs ( quoting they owned Meguaires).
So I guess they are SMAT.

I only wanted to kniw as I am looking to take off the absolute minimal amount of clearcoat.
And being a newbie, yes I admit I am scared of removing too much.

The techy did say with a relative low speed DA like my Makita, even in Forced rotation mode; one would almost have to deliberately set out to damage hard Mercedes paintwork. He just said to be careful of edges.
Keep the polish live, and never let it dry out, prime the pad and you will be safe!
Would you agree?

I had a Mercedes this morning, and this paint was tough as nails. None of the foam pads on any of the tools I had on hand were able to remove the damage in one set of passes. That includes the Flex 3401 forced rotation. I might have gotten somewhere with the Rupes UHS system. The Rupes Zephir/Blue microfiber pad struggled a lot in removing all the defects in one set of passes. The compound gave up the ghost beforr the work was done, which was specifically why UHS was developed.

The process that did the trick was the new Lake Country microfiber cutting pads, and Meguiar's M100 on a Porter Cable.

Depending on how deep the damage is, and how tough the paint is, you might be ok.

A finishing polish on that thing might not have made much if any difference.

As far as the 3M stuff, I used some of their heavy cutting compound last summer, and it worked great! I was using a rotary buffer with it though.

 

[Submariner]

I had a Mercedes this morning, and this paint was tough as nails. None of the foam pads on any of the tools I had on hand were able to remove the damage in one set of passes. That includes the Flex 3401 forced rotation. I might have gotten somewhere with the Rupes UHS system. The Rupes Zephir/Blue microfiber pad struggled a lot in removing all the defects in one set of passes. The compound gave up the ghost beforr the work was done, which was specifically why UHS was developed.

The process that did the trick was the new Lake Country microfiber cutting pads, and Meguiar's M100 on a Porter Cable.

Depending on how deep the damage is, and how tough the paint is, you might be ok.

A finishing polish on that thing might not have made much if any difference.

As far as the 3M stuff, I used some of their heavy cutting compound last summer, and it worked great! I was using a rotary buffer with it though.

Thanks for the tips
Hmmm when I bought her I was told they used an extremely tough anti chip, self healing 2 pack paint on the car, ... they salesman wasnt sure if it was just in the bumpers and skirts. :-/

 

[Toolhead]

have you tried looking up your make/model/year/color ..then research the type of paint.

with my gals super white camry . i got lucky and there was plenty of online posts about being single stage hard paint....
it helped me buy the right pads pre detail and saved a step or 2 on the testing process to see how whatl level of pad/polish i needed to start with

 

[Submariner]

I had a Mercedes this morning, and this paint was tough as nails. None of the foam pads on any of the tools I had on hand were able to remove the damage in one set of passes. That includes the Flex 3401 forced rotation. I might have gotten somewhere with the Rupes UHS system. The Rupes Zephir/Blue microfiber pad struggled a lot in removing all the defects in one set of passes. The compound gave up the ghost beforr the work was done, which was specifically why UHS was developed.

The process that did the trick was the new Lake Country microfiber cutting pads, and Meguiar's M100 on a Porter Cable.

Depending on how deep the damage is, and how tough the paint is, you might be ok.

A finishing polish on that thing might not have made much if any difference.

As far as the 3M stuff, I used some of their heavy cutting compound last summer, and it worked great! I was using a rotary buffer with it though.

Thanks for the tips
Hmmm when I bought her I was told they used an extremely tough anti chip, self healing 2 pack paint on the car, ... they salesman wasnt sure if it was just in the bumpers and skirts. :-/

 

[Submariner]

have you tried looking up your make/model/year/color ..then research the type of paint.

with my gals super white camry . i got lucky and there was plenty of online posts about being single stage hard paint....
it helped me buy the right pads pre detail and saved a step or 2 on the testing process to see how whatl level of pad/polish i needed to start with

Nice idea
Sadly MB are very secretive about paint ... wont even tell you the 3 thicknesses, primer, base and clearcoat.
Best I could find was what they called “in spec” for paintwork warranty claims.

 

[Submariner]

i would recommend reading mikes how to polish posts.

i would gander a 3m tech is handling multiple product lines and may or may not have ever machine polished a car.

regarding pad usage....good metaphor..have you ever tried to remove wax haze using 1 towel?

it clogs up pretty fast...same with pads...

plan on at least 3 pads minimum for each polish stage...
i eyeball 25% of car now per pad...
your eyes will tell you when the pads start clogging and filth builds up

buy pad cleaner ..i use wg...spray a few sprays and let pad sit for 5 mins before bucket dunk.

the initial investment for machine polishing is a chunk of change but after that...the costs levels out to consummables cost

Thanks for the tips, especially the pad cleaner.
I am hoping I can use my airgun 300 Bar cylinder just turned on a tiny bit ( otherwise it would blow a hole in the pad lol). Not ideal but saves me buying an 8 bar compressor.
Must confess I am not sure how an airline would blow a pad clean ... something to discover.

I am looking at a bunch of video, something to do whilst my back op heals.