ONR Rinseless Wash Mix?

[CharlesW]

Several people have commented on the fact that it takes 1/2 as much ONR as it does DP 4 in 1 to use them for a rinseless wash.

Several people also have commented on using ONR at 1 oz. per gallon of water rather than the 1/2 oz, suggested by Optimum.
Just out of curioisity, how many ONR user mix the product at 1/2 oz. per gallon as recommended?
If you use more, why?
What do you feel is the benefit?
Do you see any negatives when/if you use the stonger mixture?

 

[Chris Thomas]

Use it at 1/2 oz per gallon unless you have hard water. The ONR will encapsulate the minerals in the tap water and be less effective in that situation. There is no benefit otherwise.

 

[Brian_Brice]

I use it as recommended because the good Dr. has spent much more time with that product than I have, and it's been in my supplies for three years now.

 

[Bunky]

Use it at 1/2 oz per gallon unless you have hard water. The ONR will encapsulate the minerals in the tap water and be less effective in that situation. There is no benefit otherwise.

Maybe no benefit for cleaning, but there should be a benefit for improved lubricity if they recommend a higher concentration (6 oz per gallon) to be used as a QD or clay lube.

I wonder why the encapsulation properties are NOT dependent on concentration. I would think if that were true you could use even less ONR per gallon and get similar cleaning results (maybe with marring).

 

[CharlesW]

Use it at 1/2 oz per gallon unless you have hard water. The ONR will encapsulate the minerals in the tap water and be less effective in that situation. There is no benefit otherwise.

Using more with hard water has been mentioned, but most of those that have mentioned using ONR at 1 oz. per gallon have not talked about needing more because of the hard water.
Makes sense though.

I use it as recommended because the good Dr. has spent much more time with that product than I have, and it's been in my supplies for three years now.

Following the instructions for a product is always a good idea, but a surprising number of people use the ONR at 1 oz. per gallon.

Other than it being a waste of product, are there any other negatives to the 1 oz. per gallon mix?
Does it still remove sufficiently from the surface?
I was going to say remove completely, but I don't think ONR does remove completely from the surface.

 

[akimel]

I imagine that most of us who use 1 oz per gallon do so simply out of paranoia and a desire to wash our cars as "safely" as possible. A couple of days ago I compromised: two ounces of ONR to 3 gallons of water. It seemed to work okay, but heck if I know. Even after using ONR with six separate washings, it still feels "unnatural."

Al

 

[nrengle]

I use ONR at about 1.5 oz's per 2 gallons cause I do have quite a bit of particulate in the well water here. This way I don't drag more excessive amounts of particulate onto the paint. I haven't had any issues doing it this way either. It almost even seems to add just a touch more shine to the finish than the normal mix.

 

[Chris Thomas]

Using more with hard water has been mentioned, but most of those that have mentioned using ONR at 1 oz. per gallon have not talked about needing more because of the hard water.
Makes sense though.

Following the instructions for a product is always a good idea, but a surprising number of people use the ONR at 1 oz. per gallon.

Other than it being a waste of product, are there any other negatives to the 1 oz. per gallon mix?
Does it still remove sufficiently from the surface?
I was going to say remove completely, but I don't think ONR does remove completely from the surface.

Most people admittedly use more because they are skeptical, or extra cautious. It won't hurt, but isn't necessary. There are no harmful consequences, beyond waste. Myself I would recommend mixing your solution a gallon at a time at recommended dilution rather than upping the concentration in 3 gallons. It would be much more efficient to use a gallon till dirty, dump it, then make a new batch than to keep adding more ONR to a dirty solution. For example, instead of making 3 gallons and doing the whole car, you could make one to do the horizontal surfaces then dump it, make a new gallon for the vertical surfaces then dump it, make a new gallon for the wheels-tires-wells.

Another thing worth mentioning is not to use much pressure. It's not uncommon to wash a panel 3-4 times before drying, if the car is very dirty. If you think you need more ONR to help loosen the dirt for dirtier panels, I'd use a pre-spray of ONR at wash strength and allow it to work just before you begin.

 

[akimel]

Most people admittedly use more because they are skeptical, or extra cautious. It won't hurt, but isn't necessary. There are no harmful consequences, beyond waste. Myself I would recommend mixing your solution a gallon at a time at recommended dilution rather than upping the concentration in 3 gallons. It would be much more efficient to use a gallon till dirty, dump it, then make a new batch than to keep adding more ONR to a dirty solution. For example, instead of making 3 gallons and doing the whole car, you could make one to do the horizontal surfaces then dump it, make a new gallon for the vertical surfaces then dump it, make a new gallon for the wheels-tires-wells.

Another thing worth mentioning is not to use much pressure. It's not uncommon to wash a panel 3-4 times before drying, if the car is very dirty. If you think you need more ONR to help loosen the dirt for dirtier panels, I'd use a pre-spray of ONR at wash strength and allow it to work just before you begin.

Good advice. Thanks.

 

[CharlesW]

My usual procedure is one gallon for washing, one gallon for rinsing the mitt.
Because of not wanting to dilute the wash mixture with plain water from the mitt rinse, I put about 3/4 of an oz. in each.
Our water is 150 mg/L or 8.76 grains or less according to the local water works. I did check a report and it appears to usually be in the 6 to 7 grains area.
Since that seems to be a little on the high side, my extra 1/4 oz. is to help with that.
Hey, it helps me feel more comfortable with the procedure so it's a good investment.
I have used about a gallon of rinseless washes, both ONR and 4 in 1 and they have virtually replaced my conventional hose and bucket washes.
The rinseless washes and Poorboy's Spray & Wipe are what I use about 95% of the time.
Occasionally, I will do a conventional wash just because I enjoy it.

 

[Bunky]

Most people admittedly use more because they are skeptical, or extra cautious. It won't hurt, but isn't necessary.

Why? I am wondering why 1 oz per two gallons is just right and 1/2 oz per 2 gallons is not enough and 1 oz per gallon is too much. It is not necessary does not explain anything. I guess I need to ask Optimum's chemist (Mr G) directly to get an answer.

I would also like to add that this ratio was determined by the mfg just as DP 4n1 has a ratio determined by the mfg. We do not know the trade-offs made to determine the printed formula...maybe AG is being more conservative hence the view it is more expensive when in fact they may be very similar but just with different conclusions on recommended dilution.

For example, we kow DG 901 is 1 oz/gallon but many users find it you can by with 25% or more less.

 

[Chris Thomas]

It's just like anything else. The manufacturer's recommendations are simply "recommendations." End users may tweak or change as needed. Like with motor oil: If a manufacturer recommends to change it every 5000 miles, but you notice that it is very dirty at 3000 miles, you should change it anyway because you have a "working knowledge" of the dynamics of "your" car. There are those that will only use things per direction without applying common sense and sometimes there are repercussions. Use it at the recommended dose for your first run. If you think you need more lube, add some more ONR. If your water gets too dirty, dump it and make some more. If your mitt becomes too dirty switch to a fresh one. The guys that WON'T use it at the recommended strength are not being fluid and flexible and so are those who will only use it per directions. You have to get beyond advice, and feel the product work. You will only get this from experience and paying attention as you go along.

There is an Ask Dr G section on the Optimum Forums and an Ask the Autogeek section on this forum if you need a more technical answer. My experience with ONR is both personal and professional in my detailing business. I would never tell you to do something that I wouldn't do to my own, or my customer's cars.

I have also found that at any ratio, you will "feel" more slick, slipperyness if you can use Distilled or RO water.

Regards,
Chris

 

[CharlesW]

I have also found that at any ratio, you will "feel" more slick, slipperyness if you can use Distilled or RO water.

Regards,
Chris

Do you use distilled or RO water for all/most of your ONR washes or have you just done some experimenting?

The cost for a few gallons is not a factor if it really does do that much better job.

 

[Chris Thomas]

My dad own's a few local tunnel washes and I go get 5-10 gallons of RO at a time free! Also, my tap water is very good... I'm very fortunate considering some of the troubles you other guys have. Distilled gallons at Wally World are about 60 cents here.

 

[CharlesW]

My dad own's a few local tunnel washes and I go get 5-10 gallons of RO at a time free! Also, my tap water is very good... I'm very fortunate considering some of the troubles you other guys have. Distilled gallons at Wally World are about 60 cents here.

The $1.20 for a couple gallons per wash isn't going to be a factor. If things get tight, I could probably get by with one gallon of mix. Maybe even use a gallon of distilled and a gallon of tap water, half and half.

I'm too lazy to do a search right now, but I think I have read where distilled water tends to absorb Carbon Dioxide from the atmosphere and this in turn creates Carbolic Acid. Now my water is no longer pure.

 

[Chris Thomas]

The $1.20 for a couple gallons per wash isn't going to be a factor. If things get tight, I could probably get by with one gallon of mix. Maybe even use a gallon of distilled and a gallon of tap water, half and half.

I'm too lazy to do a search right now, but I think I have read where distilled water tends to absorb Carbon Dioxide from the atmosphere and this in turn creates Carbolic Acid. Now my water is no longer pure.

Nothing is pure anymore, LOL! Be sure to give us feedback after you try it, ok?

 

[Bunky]

There are those that will only use things per direction without applying common sense and sometimes there are repercussions.

I am not trying to be argumentative but curious. My comment was related several posts here that they preferred ONR since it was cheaper to use but most seem to agree that for cleaning, etc. they both work.

ONR is the wonder product and DP 4n1 is not often mentioned despite being similar to ONR. I use ONR but many pass on 4n1 due to the apparent cost per use difference. This cost per use difference is based upon the mfg's recommended usage so if people think DP 4n1 is more concentrated in the recommended dilution then the apparent difference is not so much.

I do not wash enough cars to get a sample size large enough to make any real conclusions to be more fluid. I add a little more since I have to believe it adds extra lubricity (based upon my earlier statement) but I have asked the chemist at Optimum also to get more info. Many rely on multiple opinions (often conflicting) for experiences to be flexible. That is why I am asking.

 

[Brian_Brice]

Using more with hard water has been mentioned, but most of those that have mentioned using ONR at 1 oz. per gallon have not talked about needing more because of the hard water.
Makes sense though.

Following the instructions for a product is always a good idea, but a surprising number of people use the ONR at 1 oz. per gallon.

Other than it being a waste of product, are there any other negatives to the 1 oz. per gallon mix?
Does it still remove sufficiently from the surface?
I was going to say remove completely, but I don't think ONR does remove completely from the surface.

I'm quite confident the only ill effect from using more than directed is wasted product, by no means can I see added lubrication creating a problem for particle removal.

 

[CharlesW]

Other than it being a waste of product, are there any other negatives to the 1 oz. per gallon mix?
Does it still remove sufficiently from the surface?
I was going to say remove completely, but I don't think ONR does remove completely from the surface.

I'm quite confident the only ill effect from using more than directed is wasted product, by no means can I see added lubrication creating a problem for particle removal.

My reference to removal wasn't referring to removal of dirt, but the removal of the ONR itself. Kind of like what happens if too much soap is used in a washing machine. It's difficult to remove the soap with a normal rinse.
I was wondering if a higher concentration of ONR would tend to leave more of the product on the finish. Probably not a problem since higher concentrations are used as a QD.

 

[Chris Thomas]

I added this statement to the 'ONR: The Definitive Thread', but thought you guys might benifit in this thread as well. Bunky asked Dr. G about dilutions, specifically 1/2 oz vs. 1 oz per gallon.

Here is Dr. G's reply copied from the Optimum forum:

Thank you for bringing up this question. The polymers in No Rinse have reactive groups that bond and trap dirt particles making the dirt particles virtually non-abrasive. They also bond to oily particles and emulsify them into water. The latter is equivalent to the cleaning action from soaps which also work by emulsifying oil particles into water. However, with soap there is no interaction with dirt. This is why adding No Rinse to a regular wash also helps protect the paint from dirt particles.

The No Rinse polymers also bond to all automotive surfaces and create a slick surface and act as a barrier to protect paint from marring. That is something that soap will not provide since surfactants in soaps have no affinity for painted or other automotive surfaces.

When you use 1 oz. of No Rinse in 1 or 2 gallons of water for your wash at the molecular level this provides hundreds of billions of polymer molecules to do what was said above. Additional product will not be necessary except if you are using tap water that contains high levels of minerals such as calcium hydroxide or silicates. In these cases some of the polymers will bond to these minerals and take them out of solution therefore more product might be necessary to compensate for this effect. This is another reason why adding No Rinse to a regular car wash soap improves the results when using tap water.

For claying, the recommended level is 2 oz. per gallon, however, the actual product usage is far less. For instance if you are using 16 oz. of clay lube to clay a car, at this dilution you are actually putting 1/4 oz. of No Rinse on the surface. Same thing goes for using No Rinse as a quick detailer.

These levels were of course tested for several months and hundreds of washes of heavily soiled cars before we started offering No Rinse three years ago. I hope this helps answer your question. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thanks again.

David