Orange Peel Removal/ Reduction

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nakranij

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Orange Peel Removal/ Reduction

I am not comfortable wet sanding my car yet and want to remove orange peel.

The Daily driver is a Gen 5-6 Toytoa (2011) model which has a soft paint/ clear coat. I have used modern cutting polish and finish polishes on it to give it a "glass like" finish and it really looks like it has a glass finish. Then I use a wax/sealant on it.

Now I want to tackle the orange peel.. I have 2 polishers, the GG6 Random Orbital and a Rupes LHR 15 Mark III.

Is it possible to use either machine with Meguiar's M105 or Menzerna Fast Gloss 400 with either a CarPro 5 1/4" Velvet Orange Peel or CarPro 5 1/4" Denim Orange Peel Removal Pad to reduce or remove the orange peel?



:)
 
IMO on a typical Toyota it's not only not worth it but harmful mid to long term. get a paint thickness gauge and see for yourself or better yet, talk to a body shop so they can explain things. I think you're in for a surprise when you find out how thin the paint let alone the clear coat really is.

In short, it's not wise to try and level a daily driver clear coat like that.
 
TTQ B4U said:
IMO on a typical Toyota it's not only not worth it but harmful mid to long term. get a paint thickness gauge and see for yourself or better yet, talk to a body shop so they can explain things. I think you're in for a surprise when you find out how thin the paint let alone the clear coat really is.

In short, it's not wise to try and level a daily driver clear coat like that.
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So daily drivers cannot look good? Most high end cars don't have the longevity to be a daily driver. At least with Toyota's Honda's ect you can expect more than 100 miles and 20 years out of them in the real world. I have already talked to some body shops about taking the car down to the bare metal and starting over from scratch so I have a reasonable idea what that would cost. I figured I could see how much I can get out of the factory paint job. If it needs to be re-clear coated then so be it.

What does orange peel add to the durability of the paint to begin with? Having the car re-clear coated with more layers and then sanded down to remove the peel shouldn't harm the finish.
 
nakranij said:
So daily drivers cannot look good? Most high end cars don't have the longevity to be a daily driver. At least with Toyota's Honda's ect you can expect more than 100 miles and 20 years out of them in the real world. I have already talked to some body shops about taking the car down to the bare metal and starting over from scratch so I have a reasonable idea what that would cost. I figured I could see how much I can get out of the factory paint job. If it needs to be re-clear coated then so be it.

What does orange peel add to the durability of the paint to begin with? Having the car re-clear coated with more layers and then sanded down to remove the peel shouldn't harm the finish.
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It's not about looking good or a Toyota vs higher end vehicles. Is this paint you speak of the stock factory clear coat or did you have it re-painted recently? I'm going to assume it's factory. That said you're working on an 8-9 year old finish that is already robotic thin to begin with. Most here will attest to working on both lots of Japanese and even domestics that begin to see clear coat failure in less than 10yrs. I personally have seen it a lot. Do you have a paint thickness gauge? If not, I wouldn't even attempt it and especially so if you weren't the original owner. Measure the 2018 and 2019 Mazda's and you'll be in for a big shocker on how thin the paint is on the hood-roof and deck lids.

If you're good with understanding having the entire car re-sprayed that's good to hear. My point overall is you're going to be removing a good amount of an already thin clear coat thus reducing what's left of the inherent properties said clear has to protect the underlying finish. Exposure of a super thin clear is going to be rapid impacted by the environment too. Think UV Rays more than dirt and grime. Can you remove orange peel? Sure but the question remains is at what cost is worth to you?

Sanding down 8-9 yr old Toyota Clear is risky as it's already thin. It's going to be more difficult as it's not fresh paint too. That said, sanding paint is easy, it's the part where you try to remove your sanding marks that will prove difficult. If you're not really careful you'll break-through the clear coat and expose the basecoat / color coat during the sanding process or even the buffing process as both procedures will continue to remove clear.

I see Mike's just chimed in. Read his write-ups then decided. Good luck to you either way.
 
Mike Phillips said:
Go to Google and type the below 2 searches


Clearcoat paints are thin mike Phillips

Clearcoat failure mike Phillips


Read the text.

Look at the pictures.


Or just go for it!


:)
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Thank you, I get it, So if ultimately the car is going to be stripped, re painted and re clear coated. How thick is too thick? I assume the problem exists both ways. Is it possible to buy a 10 mil paint job with a 10 mil clear coat job or is that bad also?
 
I don't know when the paint gets too thick. What I know is when doing a show car paint. Much is in the prep work to get a perfectly smooth paint. Often the painter does some filling and the last is a sprayable filling. Sanding between every layer of the fillers. Then you often do a primer coat and this they have started to test with doing it in different kind of colors so you get a cool effect when you are in bright sun light and it's darkening in the darker night. It's not different colors on the same primer but some uses black primer coat where it's useally is light grey. If they where to paint a darker shade of color as base color coat. So the base color coat is not so important to get thick just smooth. Even here it's sanded before the painting with the clearcoat starts. And here when you spraying the clearcoat you wet sanding between every layer of clearcoat to have the smoothest possible surface. But still needs some rugged surface for the clearcoat to adhere. Also it's here the painters talents shows if he can both do an excellent prep work and sanding and is awesome with the paintgun. These are rare that they have all of the skills. Also knowing his way around the polisher to finishing his paint work to be max quality. To do show cars paint work is time consuming and expensive. Also to find these paintshops is not easy either. Useally you have 3 layers of base color coat and all from 3-10 layers of clearcoat. Here is a big difference from painter to painter to have the talent to apply even and right amount of clearcoat to each layer. The less he needs to be wet sanding the better and faster the work goes. Also haveing the talent to wet sanding is necessary to get it as close to perfect as possible. And I think that with a too thick of clearcoat when done can have a drawback depending on the color you are haveing. It can be looking a little plastic if the clearcoat gets too thick. So somewhere it's a sweet spot with the paint thickness.

If you take a look at AMMO NYC Youtube chanel where he gets his Porsche 911 down to the metall and restored to a show car paint. You can follow the steps and get a sense of how that is to be doing. You useally don't sanding down to the metall when repainting. You get through the clearcoat and the do the fillers where needed to. Then you spray a base coat primer that locks the old paint in. And go from there.

And I agree with the others that's not worth it to remove orange peel on factory paint work. Also get a paint thickness gauge if you are going for it. It's all about how much clearcoat you have on the car. Even with a paint thickness gauge it's not hundred procent safe as you only knows the total thickness of the paint. The PTG ones that can measure the clearcoat thickness is very expensive. So even if go after the orange peel and have a PTG I would be set on to be needed to a repaint. Have in mind that if you succed but need a panel or two repainted. You would want a highly skilled painter to do this repaint. As with a perfectly smooth paint it's very important to get the color matching right too.
 
nakranij said:
Thank you, I get it,


So if ultimately the car is going to be stripped, re painted and re clear coated.

How thick is too thick?

I assume the problem exists both ways. Is it possible to buy a 10 mil paint job with a 10 mil clear coat job or is that bad also?
Click to expand...


Correct. Like most things in LIFE - moderation. Don't go to far to the extreme in one direction and don't go to far to the extreme in the other direction.


If you truly are ready to take on the cost of having a pro re-paint your daily driver so that it doesn't have any orange peel then instead of trying to become an expert on "too much paint", share this thread with the painter and explain you want you car repainted. Tell him to spray a few extra coats of clear and then be willing to do one of two things,

1: Pay him to wetsand, cut and buff the paint and use the same high quality sandpapers and sanding discs I just used to teach a class on wetsanding.

2: Be ready to spend the money it will take to purchase all the same high quality sandpapers and sanding discs I just used to teach a class on wetsanding.


You will also need a rotary buffer and a wool buffing pad to buff out your sanding marks. Can it be come with the tools you already own? Sure but it will be ridiculous to attempt to wetsand cut and buff an entire car using only free spinning orbital polishers.


I'd highly recommend attending one of my classes, either the next 3-day class here at Autogeek in Stuart, Florida or one of my Roadshow classes as I teach how to wetsand using a real car, not a demo hood or a cookie sheet.



Detailing Roadshow Classes for 2019
 Information - Dates - Locations

2019_Roadshow_Map_02.JPG


Currently we have 8 locations confirmed for our 2-day Roadshow Classes. As more classes are scheduled and confirmed they will be added to this list.


This is a 2-day class that covers both exterior detailing, interior detailing and wetsanding. Classes start at 7:30am sharp and end at 5:30pm - these are 10 hour classes where you're on our feet getting 100% hands-on training.

Price: $895.00

Early sign-up bonus - Sign-up 30 days before the date of the class and receive a $100.00 store credit at Autogeek.com


Call Andre to sign-up over the phone 1-800-869-3011 x244



June

Saturday, June 1st and Sunday, June 2nd <-- Info and link to sign-up
Pro Reflection Detail Shop
501 W Powell Lane Unit 208
Austin, Texas 78753
Host Website - ProReflection.com


Saturday, June 15th and Sunday, June 16th <-- Info and link to sign-up
All in the Polish Detail Shop
155 S Montezuma Castle HWY STE 5
Camp Verde, Arizona 86322
Host Website - AllinthePolishDetailing.com


Saturday, June 22nd and Sunday, June 23rd <-- Info and link to sign-up
English Class – Guest Instructor Rigo Santana
MiraCosta College
1 Barnard Drive
Oceanside, California 92056
Host Website - miracosta.edu



Saturday, June 29th and Sunday, June 30th <-- Info and link to sign-up
Spanish Class – Guest Translator Rigo Santana
MiraCosta College
1 Barnard Drive
Oceanside, California 92056
Host Website - miracosta.edu




July

Saturday, July 20th and Sunday, July 21st <-- Info and link to sign-up
Kruse Museum
5634 Co Rd 11A
Auburn, IN 46706
Host Website - krusemuseums.org




August

Saturday, August 24th and Sunday, August 25th <-- Info and link to sign-up
Denver Auto Shield
4211 South Natches Court Suite D
Englewood, CO 80110
Host Website - denverautoshield.com




September

Saturday, September 14th and Sunday, September 15th <-- Info and link to sign-up
Detail Pro Shop
6040 Glick Road
Powell, OH 43065
Host Website - detailproshop.com/




October

Saturday, October 12th and Sunday, October 13th <-- Info and link to sign-up
Immaculate Paint Protection
4224 Greenfield Road
Bethlehem, PA 18017
Host Website - immaculatepaintprotection.com



Questions?
If you have any questions about the tools and topics covered on Saturday and Sunday please feel encouraged to call Andre or Mike


Andre - 1-800-869-3011 x244

Mike - 1-800-869-3011 x206



:)
 
My guess is, based upon years of experience, that after you see first hand how much work it is to wetsand an entire car without making any mistakes, (mistakes mean sanding or buffing through the clearcoat), you will more than likely, like most people learn to save a boat load of money and simply learn to live with the factory orange peel on your daily driver.


But in case you're serious, here's the link to my class here at Autogeek in Stuart, Florida in September.


Mike Phillips Detailing Boot Camp - September 27th, 28th, & September 29th



This class always fills-up and sells-out the fastest.



:)
 
I'm making plans to attend the Powell class myself. REALLY looking forward to it!
 
mk9750 said:
I'm making plans to attend the Powell class myself. REALLY looking forward to it!
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Good to hear! I'll likely not be in attendance as I detail on weekends but it should be a great class.
 
I feel like we're hijacking nakranij's thread, and for that I apologize.

I only detail on the weekends myself (very rare occasion when I might be doing a friend's car that I am comfortable driving and letting him drive mine, then I might do one over two week nights). But sacrificing a weekend for the opportunity makes sense for me. I've not taken a class, and feel I'll make more money because I took the class than I'd make that weekend. And getting to Columbus is a breeze, and I have a son who lives in Hilliard I can stay with to keep costs down.
 
When I bought my new to me Ford Taurus it was about 1.5 years old. It had very minor swirling, but I knew it was going to take at least a medium polish to get them all out. There were places on the car that noticeable orange peel and other panels where quite smooth. I couldn't stand the orange peel areas. So I used the Carpro velvet pads and FG400 on the car. This totally removed any swirling and I was able to knock down those bad areas. I didn't go totally flat, but those noticeable spots now look the rest of the smooth parts of the car. Those velvet pads leave a really nice finish. I figured that this was a good compromise knowing that wet sanding was not wise.
 
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