Polymer based tire gel?

WRXINXS

WRXINXS

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I emailed Sonus to see if their Tire & Bumper Dressing Gel was water based and they wrote back that it is not water based, that it is polymer based and contains now petroleum distillates?

I'm a bit confused. I though it had to be either water or petrol based? I want to try this product out because it is never mentioned but I am only going to try it if it is water based and does not attract dust like petrol based products.

Thanks,
Drew
 
I think the confusion may lie with someone at Sonus! MSDS is at:

Sonus MSDS Sheets - Vehicle Care Wholesale Products

The product claims to be almost totally PDMS, otherwise known as basic silicone fluid. Unfortunately the MSDS makes no sense. It claims that it is soluble in water - at >98% PDMS, it would definitely not be soluble in water. It claims to have a boiling point at 212F, this is the boiling point of water and miles away from that of PDMS. It claims to have a pH of 6-8 - this product simple does not have a pH and any attempt to claim so would be to suggest the author is far from qualified for his/her job.

The product itself, is it a clear gel? Is it moderately durable (so does not wash easily with water)?

I suspect that your contact at Sonus is right but misleading. Silicone oil (PDMS), the primary component listed on the MSDS, is a polymer. It just happens that it isn't a polymer as you detailing guys tend to mean it! Chances are, it has a quantity of a non-polar oil to control viscosity and cost - this is the petroleum distillate referred to. Please do remember that petroleum distillate is not petrol/gasoline, merely a relative.

Basic summary is that Sonus appear to be making a right mess of their information and (most critically!!) their health & safety info!
 
If there are any concern about Sonus, contact them. I find them quite straight forward when you ask them questions.
 
Thanks guys, I was going to try something new but might just stick with my B&B/Perl and Opti-Bond all water based.
 
Maybe Mr. Megane will correct me if I don't have this right, but I think part of the confusion with water vs. oil vs. solvent-based dressings is...that the silicone that is in virtually all dressings is an oil. So you can deliver it in one of 3 ways.

1. As the straight oil
2. Cut the oil with a solvent that will evaporate after application
3. Create an oil-in-water emulsion (sort of a version of #2)

The clear products like the greasy-kid-stuff in the spray bottles at Poop Boys are #1. The clear gels are likely a modification of #1. There are a few solvent-based dressings here, but they are more usually seen in dealers/high volume shops. And most of the dressings are the white PDMS emulsions (#3). I imagine the gels like Opti-Bond are just a modification of #3.

PS As Mr. Megane has taught us before, polymer is a vague word, and as he notes above, silicone is a polymer, but the silicone polymer in tire dressings is not the same kind of silicone polymer used in LSP's which is how we usually use the term polymer around here. In some industries if you say polymer it means something is plastic, as opposed to being rubber or metal.
 
A polymer is a catch-all term. Lots of confusion over this term and chemistry in general. A polymer is just a set of repeating monomers.

I've been told Carnauba wax is a polymer, kind of goes against what I would guess the average person thinks. And that human skin is a polymer, again, this probably goes against what the average person thinks of as a polymer when they think of the term polymer.

My guess is most people think when they read or hear the term polymer they think of something synthetic or man-made.


That's where I always return to what John Dillon shared with me years ago when people ask,


"What's in the bottle?"


He told me to,

"Direct people's attention to the performance of the product, not the ingredients in the bottle."



Always makes sense to me especially because an MSD sheet is not a formula. Companies only have to list ingredients that are harmful, flammable, or in some other way dangerous in an of themselves or a shipping hazard.

MSD sheets don't have to include all the ingredients, the specific form of the ingredient or how it was mixed with the other ingredients to create the final end-result.

I've been involved in a few MSDS meetings in my life and they are very interesting to say the least. I know everyone and anyone that hangs out on a detailing discussion forum as a part of their hobby or business is curious about detailing product chemistry, I know I am, but unless you're the chemist that actually creates the formula, all discussions are just that, discussions.

I'm not a baker or a chef but I think that you can give two people all the same ingredients to bake a tall fluffy cake but if the ingredients are not mixed correctly and in the proper order by the non-chef, the cake will be flat as a pancake.


:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Always makes sense to me especially because an MSD sheet is not a formula. Companies only have to list ingredients that are harmful, flammable, or in some other way dangerous in an of themselves or a shipping hazard.

MSD sheets don't have to include all the ingredients, the specific form of the ingredient or how it was mixed with the other ingredients to create the final end-result.
Click to expand...

I know you hate it when we start looking at MSDS, Mike. Just to prove your point, when I had looked at the Sonus/Four Star MSDS, I also looked at another tire gel MSDS--Opti-Bond. It listed NOTHING--because it has no hazardous ingredients. It's a pretty good product for one made out of nothing! :D
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Maybe Mr. Megane will correct me if I don't have this right, but I think part of the confusion with water vs. oil vs. solvent-based dressings is...that the silicone that is in virtually all dressings is an oil. So you can deliver it in one of 3 ways.

1. As the straight oil
2. Cut the oil with a solvent that will evaporate after application
3. Create an oil-in-water emulsion (sort of a version of #2)

The clear products like the greasy-kid-stuff in the spray bottles at Poop Boys are #1. The clear gels are likely a modification of #1. There are a few solvent-based dressings here, but they are more usually seen in dealers/high volume shops. And most of the dressings are the white PDMS emulsions (#3). I imagine the gels like Opti-Bond are just a modification of #3.
Click to expand...

More or less. I could add all manner of minor provisos but that is likely just to confuse!

Mike is quite correct about judging products on performance. MSDS are not intended for end users to use for product assessment. If you spend your life formulating, then this is quite plausible but a little bit of knowledge can tend to mislead if the reader doesn't know where to read between the lines. MSDS are primarily there for safety reasons so that one can assess dangers in use and also so, in the case of accident, that a medical professional will be able to find what chemicals they are dealing with and will be able to make a reasoned decision on how to proceed with treatment. Certainly here in the UK, MSDS should be absolutely central to a professional users vocabulary - not to work out what is in the product, but because they are obliged to do health & safety assessments (under what is known as COSHH). Generally, users fail to read the label much less check an MSDS!

As Mike says, the way you blend and treat ingredients is important and you need to know what you are doing. I have big issue with people who 'home brew' because they generally have almost no background and are working with trial and error based on something they have read. Even more concerning is the ones who then start selling these products because, if they don't really know the chemistry behind it, what are the chances that they will be able to provide adequate information to ensure user safety and to ensure medical practitioners can deal with accidents?

Anyhow, I have digressed, apologies.

Oh just an addition - yes, only hazardous ingredients are obligatory (at least in the EU) but any cleaning product, as I understand it, needs to have a full list of ingredients available under another EU directive called the Detergents Directive. This is actually a point of contention for me because many fail to do this, especially products which are imported!
 
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