Questions to chemists about alcohol

[Calendyr]

Hey guys, I have a few questions about the use of solvants to remove polishing oils and prepare surfaces for coatings and sealants.

So, in the last 6 years, I have been using ONR 128:1 with 25% isopropyl content as a paint prep for sealants and coatings.

I am wondering if I can substitute this for some other form of alcohol. For example, cold weather windshield washer fluid uses a high content of methyl alcohol. If I was so add an ounce of ONR to a gallon of this stuff, would it make a good Paint Prep? Why or why not?

Also, I was told that Duplicolor Wax and Grease Remover is mostly Acetone. I think it does a very good job but Acetone is a know cancerigen, so I think I would like to stop using it. The question is, how effective would windshield washer + ONR be compared to both Acetone and IPA 25%?

Feel free to speculate if you don't have hard scientific answers (as long as you are a chemist that is LOL).

 

[LSNAutoDetailingLSNAutoDetailing is verified member.]

This doesn't answer your question, rather it asks one. Any reason you just don't use CarPro Erasure? I understand getting it to Canada may include some cost, but CarPro has taken all the science out of it.
It's pretty amazing stuff.

CarPro Eraser Intense Oil & Polish Cleanser, IPA, paint cleaner, polish remover, wax remover

IPA loosens oil but the problem occurs as oil can be spread around or redeposited as you wipe the paint. Eraser goes a step further with its intense cleaners that dissolve oils. Eraser breaks down polish residue as well as removing dust.

Features:

- Eraser is an intense cleaner designed to dissolve oil particles and remove polish residue to prepare the paintwork for Cquartz.
- When you wipe down your polished vehicle with Eraser Intense Oil & Polish Cleanser, you’re removing oils, fillers, and dust completely.
- Application of CQuartz or your chosen LSP will bond much better and create a long-lasting shine with great protection while giving the user peace of mind as to the quality of the surface prior.
- Eraser also has anti-static components to resist dusting after wiping. The paint will stay dust-free while you’re in the process of applying Cquartz so you don’t have to keep re-cleaning panel by panel.
- Eraser contains no silicone and is completely safe for use in paint shops and body shops.
- Eraser smells great, which is definitely not true of a homemade IPA! CarPro Eraser Intense Oil & Polish Cleanser is the next step and an evolution beyond IPA.
- Prepare your vehicle for the best results with Cquartz by erasing oil and polish residue.
- Due to Eraser key ingredients & make up Eraser also makes a fantastic glass cleaner and degreaser. It leaves a streak free finish, to glass every time with the added benefit of a static free finish so the
glass stays cleaner longer.

 

[Calendyr]

It's a matter of cost. Eracer is one of the most expensive chemical on the market. And it is a glorified IPA. My goal is to cut costs, not tripple them

I never had an issue with IPA, just trying to figure out if I can cut cost down some more and save a few steps in preparing the solution. If I can use windshield washer and ONR, I can get that stuff anywhere. And I always have ONR with me. So it's a very good combo if it can work.

I came upon the idea watching a video where the guy was using Windex to clean up the pannel after polishing. Dawned to me that any solvent should be able to do the work. Could probably use dawn too but then it would involve rinsing and drying so it's too much of a hassle.

 

[custmsprty]

I don't do an ipa wipe down prior to applying any sealants and have never had any issues. I don't do coatings so I don't worry about that part of the equation.

 

[chet31]

I am a former chemist. I don't know the answer. From what I could find via Google search, it appears cold weather windshield wash uses different products as anti-freeze, including methyl, ethyl, isopropyl alcohols, and ethylene glycol. They'll generally also have some kind of cleaning agent and coloring agent. I checked my bottle (yes, got up off my ass and checked just for you haha) and it says it contains methyl alcohol, but lists no other ingredients. They don't even give the % alcohol. Therein lies the problem You don't know exactly what's in it or the ratios of the mixture. So even if a certain bottle worked for you this year, it may not work for you next year. They could change the ingredients or the ratios and you wouldn't know it and they are under no obligation to put it on their label. I like your current approach of making your own formula. It works for you, you control the ingredients and the ratios, and it's repeatable.

 

[FUNX650]

It's a matter of cost.

Eracer is one of the most expensive
chemical on the market. And it is a
glorified IPA.

My goal is to cut costs, not tripple them


I came upon the idea watching a video
where the guy was using Windex to
clean up the pannel after polishing.

•Speaking about being cost-conscience:

-Several detailers that post-up here on
AGO’s forum have stated they have
used Meguiar’s D120 for “panel wipes”.

-{D120’s ingredients include Isopropyl
Alcohol @10-30%, by weight—(T.S.)}



Bob

 

[Eldorado2k]

•Speaking about being cost-conscience:

-Several detailers that post-up here on
AGO’s forum have stated they have
used Meguiar’s D120 for “panel wipes”.

-{D120’s ingredients include Isopropyl
Alcohol @10-30% (by weight—T.S.)}



Bob

When I attended the Detailing 101 Class @Meguiars, Jason Rose was using glass cleaner as a panel wipe.

 

[Calendyr]

I am a former chemist. I don't know the answer. From what I could find via Google search, it appears cold weather windshield wash uses different products as anti-freeze, including methyl, ethyl, isopropyl alcohols, and ethylene glycol. They'll generally also have some kind of cleaning agent and coloring agent. I checked my bottle (yes, got up off my ass and checked just for you haha) and it says it contains methyl alcohol, but lists no other ingredients. They don't even give the % alcohol. Therein lies the problem You don't know exactly what's in it or the ratios of the mixture. So even if a certain bottle worked for you this year, it may not work for you next year. They could change the ingredients or the ratios and you wouldn't know it and they are under no obligation to put it on their label. I like your current approach of making your own formula. It works for you, you control the ingredients and the ratios, and it's repeatable.

Thank you for your efforts Ok so from what you are saying, here is what I am getting:

-Various type of alcohol are used depending on brands and products. The ones available here in Canada, as far as I know, are always Methyl alcohol (wood alcohol). So the question is, is that a good solvant to remove oils, would it do the same job as Isopropyl alcohol at the same ratio for instance?

- Isn't there an easy way to mesure alcohol content? People who make wine and beer do it all the time. I could get the necessary tool if really needed....

- I think that the ratio of alcohol must be pretty much the same as long as you use windshield washer designed for the same temperature. Here in Montreal, 3 types are sold: 0 Celcius, -35 Celcius and -40 Celcius. So if they decided to change the ratio of alcohol that would impact the freezing point of the solution. So I can be fairly confident the ratio would either remain the same, or stay very close.

 

[Calendyr]

•Speaking about being cost-conscience:

-Several detailers that post-up here on
AGO’s forum have stated they have
used Meguiar’s D120 for “panel wipes”.

-{D120’s ingredients include Isopropyl
Alcohol @10-30%, by weight—(T.S.)}



Bob

Thanks Bob. That's not a bad idea. I no longer use D120 as a window cleaner and I have almost of full gallon of concentrate left.

 

[Calendyr]

When I attended the Detailing 101 Class @Meguiars, Jason Rose was using glass cleaner as a panel wipe.

Yes, that is how I got the idea, it seems a lot of people are doing that.

 

[fightnews]

I use gtechniq panel wipe at 1 to 1. I use n914 at ww dilution for the 1.

Just factor the cost of product into the job.

 

[MarkD51]

Hey guys, I have a few questions about the use of solvants to remove polishing oils and prepare surfaces for coatings and sealants.

So, in the last 6 years, I have been using ONR 128:1 with 25% isopropyl content as a paint prep for sealants and coatings.

I am wondering if I can substitute this for some other form of alcohol. For example, cold weather windshield washer fluid uses a high content of methyl alcohol. If I was so add an ounce of ONR to a gallon of this stuff, would it make a good Paint Prep? Why or why not?

Also, I was told that Duplicolor Wax and Grease Remover is mostly Acetone. I think it does a very good job but Acetone is a know cancerigen, so I think I would like to stop using it. The question is, how effective would windshield washer + ONR be compared to both Acetone and IPA 25%?

Feel free to speculate if you don't have hard scientific answers (as long as you are a chemist that is LOL).

I know Mike Phillips has penned articles here about the use of IPA as a prep wipe, and how to calculate percentages with relatively simple mix ratios.

These articles may have been written before the advent of the many Coatings that are now available.

Would such not be suitable, and work for your, or other's needs, particularly in regards to the possible use of Coatings being applied?

I could be wrong, but it appeared that Mike's primary use of such at the time was to see the actual true condition of the paint, and actual results of polishing processes, to see that any paint imperfections weren't perhaps being hidden by polishing oils and possible fillers.

 

[Calendyr]

Yep. Genearally i do an IPA wipedown before doing the prep step for coating. The prep step is either a hand application of McKee's 37 Coating Preparation or machine application of CarPro Essence.

I think the IPA would probably be enough, but I don't want to take any chances.

 

[rlmccarty2000]

Are people diluting d120 or using it straight as a panel wipe? I’ve got a gallon going to waste and would like to use it up.

 

[chet31]

Thank you for your efforts Ok so from what you are saying, here is what I am getting:

-Various type of alcohol are used depending on brands and products. The ones available here in Canada, as far as I know, are always Methyl alcohol (wood alcohol). So the question is, is that a good solvant to remove oils, would it do the same job as Isopropyl alcohol at the same ratio for instance?

- Isn't there an easy way to mesure alcohol content? People who make wine and beer do it all the time. I could get the necessary tool if really needed....

- I think that the ratio of alcohol must be pretty much the same as long as you use windshield washer designed for the same temperature. Here in Montreal, 3 types are sold: 0 Celcius, -35 Celcius and -40 Celcius. So if they decided to change the ratio of alcohol that would impact the freezing point of the solution. So I can be fairly confident the ratio would either remain the same, or stay very close.

Good point, they are going to use the minimum methyl alcohol necessary to keep the wiper fluid from freezing (for cost reasons), so that percentage will likely be similar over time. I don't know what that percentage is. Probably lowish - maybe 10-20% - the detergent and other additives will help the methanol lower the freezing point. Methyl will dissolve oils, but isopropyl is less polar than methyl, so isopropyl likely dissolves oils better than methyl.

Methyl must be cheaper than isopropyl, that's why they use it (isopropyl and ethyl would be more desirable due to flashpoint and toxicity). Ethyl is likely not used because of cost. It's no more expensive to make, but it's going to be heavily taxed. But by all means, if you can find vodka for under $10/gallon, use it, it will serve double duty.

 

[Eldorado2k]

Are people diluting d120 or using it straight as a panel wipe? I’ve got a gallon going to waste and would like to use it up.

Don’t use it straight.

 

[Calendyr]

Good point, they are going to use the minimum methyl alcohol necessary to keep the wiper fluid from freezing (for cost reasons), so that percentage will likely be similar over time. I don't know what that percentage is. Probably lowish - maybe 10-20% - the detergent and other additives will help the methanol lower the freezing point. Methyl will dissolve oils, but isopropyl is less polar than methyl, so isopropyl likely dissolves oils better than methyl.

Methyl must be cheaper than isopropyl, that's why they use it (isopropyl and ethyl would be more desirable due to flashpoint and toxicity). Ethyl is likely not used because of cost. It's no more expensive to make, but it's going to be heavily taxed. But by all means, if you can find vodka for under $10/gallon, use it, it will serve double duty.

Ok, that is what I wanted to know. So Methyl would not do as good a job at the same dilution ratio. So I would need to have a higher ratio for the same result. Exellent.

As for using Vodka, might get drunk while detailing, not a good idea LOL: So one spray for the panel, one spray for me,