Rust chips and Dr Color Chip, light driftwood satin glow Paint Code PFA

[rerod]

Hello.

I just bought a clean 97 dodge cummins, but it has many chips on the front that are rusting. Is Dr Color Chip a good way to approach my DD repair, and why doesn't dr color chip list my "light driftwood satin glow" Paint Code PFA? Is this touch up color going to be difficult to find, and am I better off having someone paint the hood and fenders? Is the paint even available and what are the options? This truck is a keeper, but Im going to be DD and I expect more chips and what not.. I wish it was white..

Thanks!

 

[itsgn]

Is Dr Color Chip a good way to approach my DD repair

Might be, but first you'd need to remove the rust using an "iron" remover. If you don't, then any paint applied to the surface over it will peel off in a short time.

and why doesn't dr color chip list my "light driftwood satin glow" Paint Code PFA?

Color names are not a reliable way to identify them. You should use color codes instead, which definitely identify a particular color, and are easier to look up anyway. The factory color code should be on your door tag, or sometimes on a similar tag located under the bonnet or under the flooring of the trunk.

Is this touch up color going to be difficult to find, and am I better off having someone paint the hood and fenders?

A repaint could have several advantages over a touch up, but it's also more expensive, and if the paint is heavily degraded and/or the body shop can not adjust/match the color properly, you might end up with a panel that has a noticeably different color tone than the original, making the repaint obvious. Personally I'd try to touch up smaller defects, and only do a repaint if the results are not acceptable, or if the are already defects that are just too big to be touched up properly.

Is the paint even available and what are the options?

Get the color code first. Then you can see whether it's available at Dr. Colorchip. The latter is actually not necessary for a touch up, as you can also use regular automotive (touch up) paint for that, which will be definitely available somewhere. However, regular paint has no real blending capability, so you'll have to be more careful how you apply it, and also most likely have to wet sand the surface (and then of course compound and polish it) to get acceptable results.


Btw. it looks like your headlights will need to be replaced too. The yellowing and fogging up of the front "lens" could be fixed by means of polishing, but I also see that the bottom of the reflector surface inside of the headlight is also oxidized - and there's no real fix for that. Also, this is not only a cosmetic problem, but also adversely affects the light output of the headlight, which in turn affects drive safety.

 

[rerod]

Might be, but first you'd need to remove the rust using an "iron" remover. If you don't, then any paint applied to the surface over it will peel off in a short time.

Thanks itsgn!

I'll assume when you say "iron remover" you mean a rust neutralizer like skyco's ospho?

Color names are not a reliable way to identify them. You should use color codes instead, which definitely identify a particular color, and are easier to look up anyway. The factory color code should be on your door tag, or sometimes on a similar tag located under the bonnet or under the flooring of the trunk.


A repaint could have several advantages over a touch up, but it's also more expensive, and if the paint is heavily degraded and/or the body shop can not adjust/match the color properly, you might end up with a panel that has a noticeably different color tone than the original, making the repaint obvious. Personally I'd try to touch up smaller defects, and only do a repaint if the results are not acceptable, or if the are already defects that are just too big to be touched up properly.


Get the color code first. Then you can see whether it's available at Dr. Colorchip. The latter is actually not necessary for a touch up, as you can also use regular automotive (touch up) paint for that, which will be definitely available somewhere. However, regular paint has no real blending capability, so you'll have to be more careful how you apply it, and also most likely have to wet sand the surface (and then of course compound and polish it) to get acceptable results.

The paint code is PFA, but Dr Color Chip doesn't list PFA as a 1997 truck color.. I haven't asked a dodge dealer yet, but as a daily driver I would much prefer touch up paint because I'm alright with imperfections as long as its not rusting..

Do you know of step by step instructions for rusty chip repair? Youtube video or sticky thread?
What I'm worried most about, is not completely neutralizing the rust pits and it returning again, not so much perfectly matching the touch up paint.. I'm tempted to use rustoleum again because I had great luck rolling it on a white truck, but I don't want any adhesion problems if I repaint with automotive paint later.

Thanks again!

 

[davidc]

My 99 has the same paint and the full code is PFK,QFK taken from the data plate on the radiator. I do not know if the QFK is the clear coat with tinting or not to give the driftwood shade. You could call them and find out. I know they made 2 versions with 1 being Driftwood and the other being Driftwood Satin Glow.

Dave

 

[itsgn]

I'll assume when you say "iron remover" you mean a rust neutralizer like skyco's ospho?

Not really. Ospho converts rust to an inert substance, but does not remove it, which will cause a lot of trouble down the road. The ideal solution is - whenever possible - to remove the rust completely, and you do that with "iron removers". These do not actually remove iron, but iron-oxide (and that's why I put "iron remover" in quotation marks), but that's what essentially rust is. I'm talking here about products like CarPro Iron X, but really any similar product is also good, as long as it's capable of dissolving iron-oxide, and is formulated to try to not damage the paint.

The paint code is PFA, but Dr Color Chip doesn't list PFA as a 1997 truck color..

Well, then click "my car isn't on the list", and then you can enter any color code. That said, try to talking to them over the phone first on how to proceed in this case.

Do you know of step by step instructions for rusty chip repair? Youtube video or sticky thread?

Not really. But once you've removed the rust, you're at a point where most chip repair videos will apply to your situation.

What I'm worried most about, is not completely neutralizing the rust pits and it returning again

Well, the iron remover should take care of the problem, because it literally removes (dissolves, and carries away) the rust. I suggest you use a cotton swab to agitate the iron remover and to help with thre removal process. And you might need to spend up to (or in some cases even beyond) a minute on each chip (depending on the amount of rust that's in them), but in the end you should be able to expose the bare, uncorroded metal under the rust. At which point, if you clean it properly and apply the touch up paint to it, you should be able to stop the corrosion at that point for the remaining life of the car/paint.

 

[rerod]

Here's a video.

YouTube

 

[davidc]

Here's a video.

YouTube

That's one of the best touchup videos I have seen, thanks

Dave

 

[rerod]

The only thing I question is the size of the sand paper disk. Thats way to big imo.

And he should have taped off the good paint with a tiny hole in the tape..

I think I'm going to get Iron X Paste, but neither Dr Colorchip or automotivetouchup.com relied to a email sent asking about paint code PFA.

Is it normal for a paint code to change with the year? Meaning my 97 light driftwood satin glow PFA is the same as Davidc's 99 light driftwood satin glow PFK?

 

[itsgn]

That's one of the best touchup videos I have seen, thanks

I've tried this method, and it doesn't work at all. For one, it's very hard to keep the pencil perfectly perpendicular to the surface - and if you don't, then the sanding will be unlevel. Also, because the pencil provides essentially no cushioning (the rubber at the end provides minimal), and because the pressure you exert is distributed on a very small surface area, you'll abrade the paint very fast, meaning you're running the risk of burning through the clear coat in a very short time.

What I did instead was I took a relatively large rubber/foam sanding backing pad, cut off a small (probably inch wide) piece off it, wrapped the sandpaper around that, and used that to work and level the touch-up area. It works perfectly, keeps the sanded area pretty small, but it has none of the drawbacks of the pencil method.

 

[rerod]

I've tried this method, and it doesn't work at all. For one, it's very hard to keep the pencil perfectly perpendicular to the surface - and if you don't, then the sanding will be unlevel. Also, because the pencil provides essentially no cushioning (the rubber at the end provides minimal), and because the pressure you exert is distributed on a very small surface area, you'll abrade the paint very fast, meaning you're running the risk of burning through the clear coat in a very short time.

What I did instead was I took a relatively large rubber/foam sanding backing pad, cut off a small (probably inch wide) piece off it, wrapped the sandpaper around that, and used that to work and level the touch-up area. It works perfectly, keeps the sanded area pretty small, but it has none of the drawbacks of the pencil method.

That video is for new chips that weren't rusting, and a porsche.. Mines a DD cummins with pitted rust that even though I know my touch up job will probably look like crap, I'm more concerned with killing the rust and still curious how Iron X (ammonium thioglycolate acid) removes the rust, while ospho (phosphoric acid) only converts it?

Is opsho more for larger area's in the automotive industry? Because when reconstructing a drip rail on a ford van roof with marine epoxy, I read over and over to use ospho to neutralize the rust or it will come back, faster.. I didn't use it because was unclear if it needed washed off and I didnt want to soak my work area with water. But sounds like you have to neutralize the ospho after using..

Ospho, is a great product for automotive if used right, we give scare warnings because we want people to call so we can make sure they know how to neutralize it, so no problems will arise.
Only one way to use and here it is:

Use as needed and apply as many times as needed to get the spot clean
, let dry and leave for months if you want, don’t matter.
To neutralize the Ospho MUST be wet, so if dry, re-wet with itself and let set one or two minutes and with a clean rag and water, wipe off like washing the car and then dry.
Next, then da car with 80 grit, clean with 700-1 wax and grease remover, let set an hour and coat with an epoxy.

Notes of interest (maybe)
If you try and sand dry film off you will lose 40-60% adhesion (per adhesion tester as some will embed itself in metal and amount depends on how long the Ospho has been on panel as we do know acid films degrade with time but due to many factors we cannot pinpoint a time frame.
The tape is not a test, use razor scraper after 7 days or an adhesion tester if you have an extra $6000 to spend.
How does it fail? Here are a few calls.
Washing car and hose bounced up, hit car and paint bubbled.
Kids finished ball game
and ran by car and tossed ball gloves on hood, next day two big bubbles.
Wife got bag out of trunk, closed trunk and set bag on truck
to play with keys, next day a bubble there.

My FAVORITE TECH CALL at least once a month, my body filler dried and sanded great but when I got to metal is was gummy, DO I HAVE A BAD HARDENER? Nope only one thing, you applied it over an acid film..

 

[itsgn]

Converting rust to an inert sealing layer is the way to go, if the rust is not directly accessible or removable, and you don't plan other means to seal the surface and prevent corrosion. Because a fluid can obviously penetrate even small crevices that are not accessible by hand or tools, and because the formed inert substance (if fully covering and perfectly sealing the surface of the metal) prevents oxygen and water reaching the metal, and thus further corrosion.

However, a rock chip fits neither of these criterias, because it's directly accessible, the rust is easily removeable from it, and when touching up with the paint, the paint will also seal it off and prevent further corrosion. Also, the paint will not be able to bind properly to rust, which will cause the paint to peel off, if applied to it anyway. Also, even if paint could bind somehow to rust, or to the surface of rust which has been converted by ospho, the deeper layers of rust still present could still break and get dislodged any time, which in turn would again mean, that the paint will peel off. That's why you need to remove rust in the first place.

Also, as already explained, rust takes up more space than the raw metal, and any conversion process will most likely just add even more to that already bigger volume. So, if you do that, even if it would be perfect for the purposes of preventing corrosion and for the paint to bind to, it would still most likely mean it would create a bump in the chip, which would or could hinder you in creating a perfectly flat surface with the touch up paint.

That's why using ospho doesn't seem to make any sense to me when touching up rock chips. That said, because you seem to be pretty determined to use it, just do it, and let us know about the results.

 

[rerod]

That's why using ospho doesn't seem to make any sense to me when touching up rock chips. That said, because you seem to be pretty determined to use it, just do it, and let us know about the results.

Thanks allot for that itsgn..

I ordered both Iron X paste and ospho.. I'm ordering the touch up kit from automotivetouchup instead of dr color chip and have their DT2703 which is my PFA base, some primer, and clear coat in cart. But do I really need clear coat for a DD? And would you use a rattle can CC?

My 99 has the same paint and the full code is PFK,QFK taken from the data plate on the radiator. I do not know if the QFK is the clear coat with tinting or not to give the driftwood shade. You could call them and find out. I know they made 2 versions with 1 being Driftwood and the other being Driftwood Satin Glow.

Dave

I'm still concerned I'm getting the wrong paint after reading what David said.. How can your 99 also have light driftwood satin glow, but with a different PFK code? I checked my 97 radiator tag and it says PFA like my door sticker says.?

Thanks

 

[davidc]

I have no idea, they do show PFA above my PFK. I would mix clear and color 50/50 then apply which should keep the gloss up and give UV protection.

Dave

 

[davidc]

Ok, found this on the cummins forum

PFK is called LIGHT DRIFTWOOD SATIN GLOW. has 3 alternates to that color. year range from 95-01.

PFA is also called LIGHT DRIFTWOOD SATIN GLOW. it has 5 alternates. year range from 92-01.

they are different colors and are close but would be noticable if you had a bed one code and the cab another. i jus went and looked in our color chip book at those 2 codes, the PFK has a lil more coarse of a flake to it compared to the PFA. also one has a lil more gold tint to it compare to the other int he sunlight and vice-versa in the shade. that because of the gold pearl.

https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-non-powertrain/380722-paint-code-link-2.html

Dave

 

[itsgn]

I'm ordering the touch up kit from automotivetouchup instead of dr color chip and have their DT2703 which is my PFA base, some primer, and clear coat in cart.

Note that regular touch up paint requires a very different application process than Dr. ColorChip. You can't blend regular touch up paint like you can the former, so you'll need to be very careful when applying it, and only cover the chip itself with it, with preferably minimum excess, if any. You'll also need then (after it has dried) wet sand the touch up blob (obviously very carefully) to fully flatten the surface, and then compound and polish it to fully blend in into its surroundings. Also make sure to shake the paint container thoroughly before application (especially if it's a metallic paint), because otherwise your color match will be way off.

But do I really need clear coat for a DD?

No, and I'd actually advise against using it in most cases, because in my experience it just makes the touched up area more obvious and pop out. Well, at least on flat surfaces (like the hood) anyway. You might use it at door edges and such, where it would be problematic - if not impossible - to achieve shine and gloss by polishing the base paint. Which should be your preferred method of making the touched up spot shiny and glossy (instead of using clear coat touch up) on flat surfaces.

And would you use a rattle can CC?

Paint or clear coat from a can requires a very different application process than touch up paint. It allows you to get a generally better finish (which might be close to what the body shop would deliver with a full repaint), but it requires a far more extensive prep of the surface (including several iterations of wet sanding, using bondo to fill the defects, use primer to achieve good adhesion, masking off of unaffected areas, etc), and only makes sense if you apply it to a relatively large area. It's also higher risk and requires more experience to get it right than a spot-like touch up.

I'm still concerned I'm getting the wrong paint after reading what David said..

Well, you can do a test spot on the inside of the door sills or some other inconspicuous area, where you could apply the touch up paint over the factory paint in a small (like half an inch) stripe or blob, and see what kind of color match you're getting. Note, that you need to let the paint dry for a day or two to see its final color, because while its wet, it will usually appear darker. Also note that such inconspicuous areas usually show the original color tone, because they have not been "bleached" by the Sun, whereas exposed areas, like to hood or door will usually appear somewhat lighter (or sometimes even slightly different in color tone), because of the degradation of the paint through UV exposure. This also means that if you get a perfect color match on the protected area, you might not get such a good match on exposed areas, where the remaining factory paint - unlike your touch up paint - will not be exactly the factory color anymore.

In this case you might possibly try to experiment with mixing some (not much) touch up clear coat to the touch up base paint to make it a little bit lighter - but even that will only help if the factory paint is only faded, but has not yet begun changing also color tone; and unless you do test a relatively wide range of different mixture ratios, it will be just as much a hit or miss with the color match, as using the original touch up paint undiluted.

 

[rerod]

Hey people.

I wanted to add a update before I start to touch up the chips.

I cut short pieces of 1/8" wooden dowel and superglued 220 disks to the ends. Its easily controllable and seems to work great to sand a chip. I will make some 400 grit "sanding dowels" next. Then clean it with Iron X paste after sanding.

As far as cold temperatures, my garage is 45 degrees while its 20 degrees outside.. I'm going to assume I need to heat my garage with my 220v heater and maintain 60 degrees to apply the primer, base coat, and maybe the clear?

Thanks!

 

[davidc]

The warmer the better

Dave

 

[rerod]

Wow I really underestimated how much effort this repair will take!

1/8" disks are to big to sand many of my chips.

Feels like I'm fighting a loosing battle and should have temporarily sealed off and slowed the rust with fluid film before having it professionally painted. Ouch!$
Or can I apply primer/paint without sanding, or light 1000 grit area sanding if I use Iron X paste and Ospho? I'm still waiting on the Ospho, but Ive read it can damage paint.

Thanks!

View attachment 65522

 

[itsgn]

You need to sand _after_ you've applied the touch up paint to the cleaned surface. If you do not sand the touched up area flat, then the touch up paint blob will drop a shadow, and the defect will be even more obvious that in was before you touched it up. If you do sand the area, use at least 2000 grit sandpaper (but 4000 or 5000 will be even better), because otherwise you won't be able to remove the scratch marks with a compound, and you'll likely burn through the clear coat in just a few strokes anyway.

Of course if you have a very fine and tiny artistic paint brush, you can try to just barely coat the bottom of the chip with the touch up paint (obviously after you've cleaned it, and removed all rust), which will save you having to sand down the blob. But if you do this the defects will still be very visible even from a couple of feet away, as they won't be flush/level with the rest of the paint now, and the paint will only sit at the bottom of the "pit" that's your chip. It's just that those chip craters won't "poke" right into your eye anymore, because now they will have (about) the same color as the rest of the still in tact, original paint.

I personally wouldn't opt for the latter, as it barely provides any improvement over the original state, and will still take at least half the time as would the one with the sanding part which - if done correctly - leads to pretty decent results.

Other than these your only option is a full repaint of the panel in a body shop. Which however also might have its own set of problems, like with color match, especially in different lighting conditions. Theoretically you could also try to do a repaint yourself with some canned paint, but that most likely will not lead to decent results on a hood, which will show any and all imperfections 10x more than for ex a curved bumper.

 

[davidc]

Wow, that's a lot of chips. Kind of like pepper sprayed. Some body must have been driving behind a gravel truck.

Dave