S2000 With Possible CC Damage Question

[tigercrazy718]

Hello all, new to the forum so please direct me to the correct area if this isn't the proper place to post. I have an 05 Berlina Black S2000 with about 46k miles on it. After a recent accident that required a repaint of the driver side, I noticed what is probably some clear coat damage on part of the hood and the passenger fender. I'm assuming the car used to be left out in the sun, or I just have really bad luck (I currently garage the car). I understand that there isn't a way to reverse the CC damage, but I would like to polish the car as I am sure it has never been done before. My buddy has some Meguiars 205 and #9 that he has offered to let me borrow, so I have a couple questions. Is the 205 too aggressive of a compound for the areas with CC damage? My research suggests no, but wanted to confirm. From my research, it also seems like using #9 after 205 is a waste, am I correct? What would you all suggest for a sealant? Preferably something that would slow down the CC damage as much as possible. Finally, the process I plan on is as follows: Wash with ONR, clay with Speedyprep or Opimum Clay towel, Meguiars 205 with finishing pad, some kind of wax/sealant. Thanks!

 

[LSNAutoDetailingLSNAutoDetailing is verified member.]

Indeed it looks like the beginning stages of clearcoat damage. 205 is a finishing polish, and at this point, since you already have damage it's not really going to hurt. It may not improve the damaged areas, but then again, you may be surprised and achieve some improvement. Best thing to do is a test spot.

Other than that, your process is logically sound... Wash, decon (clay), Polish, protect.

 

[tigercrazy718]

Indeed it looks like the beginning stages of clearcoat damage. 205 is a finishing polish, and at this point, since you already have damage it's not really going to hurt. It may not improve the damaged areas, but then again, you may be surprised and achieve some improvement. Best thing to do is a test spot.

Other than that, your process is logically sound... Wash, decon (clay), Polish, protect.

Thanks for the response! I'm not expecting the polish to really correct the clear coat damage, I'm more using it to clean up the rest of the car that hasn't already started deteriorating. I am going to do a test spot on the damage, but since the two spots are on the hood and fender, whatever I do will be pretty noticeable. Any suggestions on a sealant?

 

[Mike lambert]

My only other suggestion is use very nice towels! Those cars in black have really sensitive paint. I know I always say you can’t tell someone what kind of paint over the inter webs, but I’ve done a dozen of those in black and they were all extremely sensitive.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I have an 05 Berlina Black S2000 with about 46k miles on it. After a recent accident that required a repaint of the driver side, I noticed what is probably some clear coat damage on part of the hood and the passenger fender. I'm assuming the car used to be left out in the sun, or I just have really bad luck (I currently garage the car). I understand that there isn't a way to reverse the CC damage, but I would like to polish the car as I am sure it has never been done before.

Correct. If what you show in the picture is in fact beginning clearcoat failure, it cannot be reversed but it can be slowed down. One way to slow it down is simply keep the car/back paint out of full sun as much as possible.

Beginning Clearcoat Failure

My buddy has some Meguiars 205 and #9 that he has offered to let me borrow, so I have a couple questions.

Is the 205 too aggressive of a compound for the areas with CC damage? My research suggests no, but wanted to confirm.

M205 is a FINE CUT polish, about as safe as you can get and still do some "work".

From my research, it also seems like using #9 after 205 is a waste, am I correct?

Correct. You would be repeating the 205 step. Might as well do the 205 step twice.

What would you all suggest for a sealant? Preferably something that would slow down the CC damage as much as possible. Finally, the process I plan on is as follows: Wash with ONR, clay with Speedyprep or Opimum Clay towel, Meguiars 205 with finishing pad, some kind of wax/sealant.

Thanks!

Check this out...


Patented UV Protection - Optimum Car Wax - by Dr. Ghodoussi at Autogeek.com

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Also just to comment....


I clicked on your pictures and viewed the full size versions. I don't think this is clearcoat failure, I think it's simple oxidation from neglected.

My guess is, polishing with M205, a foam polishing pad and s simple polisher like a Porter Cable 7425XP or Griot's Garage 6" Random Orbital Polisher will remove the oxidation and restore a clear clearcoat that will reveal the true black color underneath and you will be very happy. I could be wrong though. Only some testing will show you.


If you have not done a lot of polishing, this thread has a video plus a TON of info in it. Watch the video. Most of the tips and techniques I share in it are things I am the original source for but you'll find in a plethora of other videos slathered all over the Internet but for the most part, I am the OS.


Here's what you need to get into machine polishing - Recommendations for a beginner by Mike Phillips

 

[tigercrazy718]

Also just to comment....


I clicked on your pictures and viewed the full size versions. I don't think this is clearcoat failure, I think it's simple oxidation from neglected.

My guess is, polishing with M205, a foam polishing pad and s simple polisher like a Porter Cable 7425XP or Griot's Garage 6" Random Orbital Polisher will remove the oxidation and restore a clear clearcoat that will reveal the true black color underneath and you will be very happy. I could be wrong though. Only some testing will show you.


If you have not done a lot of polishing, this thread has a video plus a TON of info in it. Watch the video. Most of the tips and techniques I share in it are things I am the original source for but you'll find in a plethora of other videos slathered all over the Internet but for the most part, I am the OS.


Here's what you need to get into machine polishing - Recommendations for a beginner by Mike Phillips

Mike, thanks a ton for the comments. I would be over the moon if this was simply oxidation. I'll give it a try and report back on my results. I do have a porter cable DA, but haven't used it in a couple years, so I'll be sure to review the tips. And thanks for the optimum suggestion, I now recall seeing you recommend that in my researching, but must've forgotten to bookmark it. Thanks again!

 

[tigercrazy718]

Also just to comment....


I clicked on your pictures and viewed the full size versions. I don't think this is clearcoat failure, I think it's simple oxidation from neglected.

My guess is, polishing with M205, a foam polishing pad and s simple polisher like a Porter Cable 7425XP or Griot's Garage 6" Random Orbital Polisher will remove the oxidation and restore a clear clearcoat that will reveal the true black color underneath and you will be very happy. I could be wrong though. Only some testing will show you.


If you have not done a lot of polishing, this thread has a video plus a TON of info in it. Watch the video. Most of the tips and techniques I share in it are things I am the original source for but you'll find in a plethora of other videos slathered all over the Internet but for the most part, I am the OS.


Here's what you need to get into machine polishing - Recommendations for a beginner by Mike Phillips

Sorry one more question. Since this car has probably never seen any wax, would you feel comfortable just using the optimum wax on top of the polish, with no sealant? I plan to apply it by hand, as I noticed you said you weren't a fan of using it with a machine.

 

[Broneida]

Hi all,

Long time lurker and I attended Mike's class at the Rupes facility in CO. He's helped me a ton behind the scenes on a difficult project and I'm hoping to contribute to this conversation!

Did it look like that before you took it to the body shop? You said it had the driver's side repainted recently and that set off a big red flag for me.

I recently had a front driver's side fender painted and there was overspray on almost every panel - even on the passenger side! I've had good luck removing it with the clay substitutes such as the Nanoskin Autoscrub clay towel. I've followed it up with 105 or 205, and the Blackfire AIO to remove swirls and marring from the clay. I could have just used the BF AIO, but had purchased the 105 and 205 that I wanted to try! The BF AIO is much nicer to work with and won't dust like the 105/205.

There are a few posts here by Mike (that I can't find at the moment) where he says that body shops are the worst places for picking up overspray. He's right - again!

I'm not certain it's overspray, but mine looked similar in places so I wanted to chime in.

Good luck!

 

[tigercrazy718]

Hi all,

Long time lurker and I attended Mike's class at the Rupes facility in CO. He's helped me a ton behind the scenes on a difficult project and I'm hoping to contribute to this conversation!

Did it look like that before you took it to the body shop? You said it had the driver's side repainted recently and that set off a big red flag for me.

I recently had a front driver's side fender painted and there was overspray on almost every panel - even on the passenger side! I've had good luck removing it with the clay substitutes such as the Nanoskin Autoscrub clay towel. I've followed it up with 105 or 205, and the Blackfire AIO to remove swirls and marring from the clay. I could have just used the BF AIO, but had purchased the 105 and 205 that I wanted to try! The BF AIO is much nicer to work with and won't dust like the 105/205.

There are a few posts here by Mike (that I can't find at the moment) where he says that body shops are the worst places for picking up overspray. He's right - again!

I'm not certain it's overspray, but mine looked similar in places so I wanted to chime in.

Good luck!

Hmm you know what, I hadn't noticed this before I picked it up from the body shop. Could over spray look like this? I'll have to run my hand over this to see if I can feel it. Either way, I'll continue with my plan since it needs to be done to the car anyways. Thanks!

 

[Broneida]

The feeling is definitely noticeable. The parts of the paint without overspray that i haven't clayed are clean and a little grabby. The parts with overspray are slick, but not smooth if that makes sense. I just did a baggy test and it feels like really fine sandpaper. It takes some elbow grease even with the nanoskin clay towel and clay lube. I tried some fine to medium clay initially and it didn't do much. The clay towel/mitts work better, imo, and are much quicker.

I have no experience with clearcoat failure so I can't speak to what that might look like or feel like.

 

[tigercrazy718]

The feeling is definitely noticeable. The parts of the paint without overspray that i haven't clayed are clean and a little grabby. The parts with overspray are slick, but not smooth if that makes sense. I just did a baggy test and it feels like really fine sandpaper. It takes some elbow grease even with the nanoskin clay towel and clay lube. I tried some fine to medium clay initially and it didn't do much. The clay towel/mitts work better, imo, and are much quicker.

I have no experience with clearcoat failure so I can't speak to what that might look like or feel like.

I'll try and do the baggie test over it this weekend. Would be great if that's what it was, rather than pretty early clear coat failure.

 

[Coach Steve]

At the risk of doing my worst Captain Obvious impression, I'm going to throw this out there since it hasn't actually been said yet. Here goes...
Before you can correct the problem, you have to correctly identify what it is. The approach to alleviating the issue will be very specific in terms of the products, tools, and method required. If it's over spray, the path to correction will be very different than the path you take if it's early stages of CC failure, and so on. You need to be sure what you're dealing with so you don't:
A. Inflict harm unnecessarily.
B. Waste time and product.

I'm with Mike on this one. I don't think it's CC failure. Here in AZ, the climate is ideal for premature CC failure and, unfortunately, the number of vehicles that come through my shop that are in the early stages is staggering - some less than 6-7 yrs. old, and include luxury models to trucks, suv's, all the way down to entry level model cars. The perfect storm of prolonged extreme heat, super dry climate, and owners neglecting to keep some kind, any kind of wax/sealant on their vehicles, makes for a lot of vehicles with failing/failed clear coat. On average, I have to deliver the bad news about a failing CC to a client, 3-4 times per week. What I'm getting at here, is, I see a lot of it and what I'm seeing in your pics doesn't look like CC failure.

If that's true, then you're looking at something that's ultimately completely correctable, and that's a good thing!
If it's over spray, you don't need a baggie to know it. It will feel like 400 grit sandpaper to your bare hand. It will also be rather easily removed via clay/clay alternative.
If it's not gritty, then it's probably staining/scaling/oxidation associated with paint that's never been properly cleaned and polished. You just might be looking at a very common situation that's about the easiest to correct out of all the things we come across in this business. That said, I'd start with a thorough claying, followed by an AIO using a foam pad and DA.

Keep us updated.

 

[tigercrazy718]

At the risk of doing my worst Captain Obvious impression, I'm going to throw this out there since it hasn't actually been said yet. Here goes...
Before you can correct the problem, you have to correctly identify what it is. The approach to alleviating the issue will be very specific in terms of the products, tools, and method required. If it's over spray, the path to correction will be very different than the path you take if it's early stages of CC failure, and so on. You need to be sure what you're dealing with so you don't:
A. Inflict harm unnecessarily.
B. Waste time and product.

I'm with Mike on this one. I don't think it's CC failure. Here in AZ, the climate is ideal for premature CC failure and, unfortunately, the number of vehicles that come through my shop that are in the early stages is staggering - some less than 6-7 yrs. old, and include luxury models to trucks, suv's, all the way down to entry level model cars. The perfect storm of prolonged extreme heat, super dry climate, and owners neglecting to keep some kind, any kind of wax/sealant on their vehicles, makes for a lot of vehicles with failing/failed clear coat. On average, I have to deliver the bad news about a failing CC to a client, 3-4 times per week. What I'm getting at here, is, I see a lot of it and what I'm seeing in your pics doesn't look like CC failure.

If that's true, then you're looking at something that's ultimately completely correctable, and that's a good thing!
If it's over spray, you don't need a baggie to know it. It will feel like 400 grit sandpaper to your bare hand. It will also be rather easily removed via clay/clay alternative.
If it's not gritty, then it's probably staining/scaling/oxidation associated with paint that's never been properly cleaned and polished. You just might be looking at a very common situation that's about the easiest to correct out of all the things we come across in this business. That said, I'd start with a thorough claying, followed by an AIO using a foam pad and DA.

Keep us updated.

Just an update, I ran my hand across the damaged area and it felt smooth, so I don't think its overspray. Either way, I'm waiting on all my goodies to get here from Autogeek, and will hopefully tackle the car over winter break.

 

[tigercrazy718]

Hey all, sorry for the late update. So turns out the damage was just oxidation, not clear coat damage. The steps I outlined worked great! Car looked awesome (I say looked because its my daily and Berlina Black is so damn fragile, it's not as nice as it was ). Either way, thanks for all the tips! All my products were amazing except for the Optimum Clay Towel. I wasn't super impressed with the quality of it, so I might try and get the more expensive one form another company whose name is escaping me right now. Still got the job done though. Below are some pictures of before and after, as it appears my previous pictures have disapeared.

 

[Calendyr]

Glad you were able to fix the issue.

The half life of a basecoat/clearcoat paint system is about 5 years. You are almost at the 3 times that. Normally paint start to fail around the 10 year mark. So I would suggest you put some serious protection on the paint, in the form of a nano-ceramic coating.

Otherwise, make sure that there is always a fresh layer of paint sealant on the car. Normally sealants are a twice a year product, I would upgrade that to 4 times a year for your car. Once per season.

And if the car can be garaged when it's not in use, that is the best form of protection you can use as a supplement to what ever product you decide on putting on the paint.

 

[392hemi]

Glad you were able to fix the issue.

The half life of a basecoat/clearcoat paint system is about 5 years. You are almost at the 3 times that. Normally paint start to fail around the 10 year mark. So I would suggest you put some serious protection on the paint, in the form of a nano-ceramic coating.

Otherwise, make sure that there is always a fresh layer of paint sealant on the car. Normally sealants are a twice a year product, I would upgrade that to 4 times a year for your car. Once per season.

And if the car can be garaged when it's not in use, that is the best form of protection you can use as a supplement to what ever product you decide on putting on the paint.

First time I have heard that, can you please point me where that is based from? Is that life determined for a completely neglected car? Arent there different clear coat and some known to be unacceptable (Honda)? Even on most cars that are never protected with LSPs, I've only seen failures in tropical environments. I do know Dodge/Plymouth and Hondas of certain eras cant keep thier paint on lol.

OP car looks amazing! Glad it was just oxidation!

 

[tigercrazy718]

First time I have heard that, can you please point me where that is based from? Is that life determined for a completely neglected car? Arent there different clear coat and some known to be unacceptable (Honda)? Even on most cars that are never protected with LSPs, I've only seen failures in tropical environments. I do know Dodge/Plymouth and Hondas of certain eras cant keep thier paint on lol.

OP car looks amazing! Glad it was just oxidation!

Thanks! Even if the above info isn't correct, I do plan on waxing with the Optimum spray on wax every 2 or 3 washes because its soooo easy. I should also be able to stop daily driving the car in the next couple weeks, so it will live happily in the garage except for nice days and track days!

 

[Calendyr]

First time I have heard that, can you please point me where that is based from? Is that life determined for a completely neglected car? Arent there different clear coat and some known to be unacceptable (Honda)? Even on most cars that are never protected with LSPs, I've only seen failures in tropical environments. I do know Dodge/Plymouth and Hondas of certain eras cant keep thier paint on lol.

OP car looks amazing! Glad it was just oxidation!

It's something I learned while studying for detailing. I could not telll you what book it's from... sorry. As for specific paints and all that... it is always dependant on about 20 different factors. Exposition to the elements is the most important one, if your car sits in the sun everyday and you are in a climate like Arizona or Hawaii... the paint is not gonna last long. The other important aspect is how you protect your paint. If you never ever wax the car, you are definatelly reducing the life of the paint.

As for paint qualities... Honda has had a pretty bad track record for their paint. They are one of the only car manufacturers who had to have recalls for the poor paint quality. I can't remember which years it was but the paint would crack on it's own all over the car forming what looked like bird feets.

As for Dodge. As the owner of a dodge Caravan, I can tell you this is also true. But I think in the case of Dodge, it's less a problem with the paint quality and more a problem with bad design. Water can get in places where it will sit and make the panels rust. I purchased my van used and had the rocker panels replaced and the bottom of the van repainted as well as the hood and the hatch. 2 Years later I will have to re-do all of that. I might just replace it, there are other issues with the van such as electric problems to accessories and I don't think it's worth putting the money in to fix it, especially if I have to re-paint it every 2 years.