Thoughts on topping a wax with a wax

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ml13

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I know a great way to go for looks and durability is to top a sealant with a wax, however does anyone top a ultra durable wax (ie: colinite 915 or 845) with another wax for improves looks (ie: soveran paste, etc)? Would this give you a warmer wax look with better durability then only a couple of weeks like you would get with something like soveran? Im sure Sealant with a wax topper makes more sense but I was just curious if anyone goes this other route.
 
I wouldn't. I would prep the car well (clay-polish-glaze), then apply two coats of the same wax.
 
i have topped insulators wax with nattys blue once, and i think the looks were improved, but its tough to say... its easier to double coat to ensure even coverage and wax more often...
 
you cant really top carnuba with carnuba....one layer just melts into the other....if you want to top, i would suggest a sealant first, followed by a carnuba...
 
I layer waxes...I use Griot's Carnauba Wax Stick as a first layer. It has excellent durability and looks great in its own right...on top of that I add a layer of Griot's Best of Show Wax on both my Riverside Gold Corvette and 1970 Avanti, and on my 2002 Torch Red Avanti I use Griot's Carnauba Wax Stick topped with Pinnacle Souveran. Excellent results on all three cars with durability.
 
Gunslinger said:
I layer waxes...I use Griot's Carnauba Wax Stick as a first layer. It has excellent durability and looks great in its own right...on top of that I add a layer of Griot's Best of Show Wax on both my Riverside Gold Corvette and 1970 Avanti, and on my 2002 Torch Red Avanti I use Griot's Carnauba Wax Stick topped with Pinnacle Souveran. Excellent results on all three cars with durability.
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i can assure you that you are not adding layers, your coverage is great no doubt, but your not layering....
 
Can carnauba waxes be truly layered, or does the new layer simply "melt into the other"? That is a $64 question. I have seen this discussed a lot on all the detailing forums, but as far as I can everyone's opinions are purely speculative. There doesn't seem to be any hard scientific evidence that would decisively determine judgment.

I tend to trust Dodo Juice's Dom Colbeck's judgments on these matters. Though not a chemist, he at least is in direct conversation with chemists on these matters and has acquired a reliable understanding of the chemistry of waxes and sealants. I asked him if a the solvents in the second layer of wax would re-liquify the original layer. He replied:

Well a lot depends on the exact substance and I am just a link to the chemists, not a chemist myself, but:

- what you are applying is a product in solution (ie product and solvent mix). When the product cures the solvent carrier evaporates off and the product that is left behind can harden and bond with itself/the surface it is applied to.

- just because you add fresh solvent to the surface doesn't necessarily mean this new solid/cured/bonded coating is going to redissolve... it may have had heat to dissolve it in the first place, it may have been in a powdered form or whatever. The cured product will be different from that raw ingredient even if it it just a thin and cured coating of the product, rather than a loose powder.

- so when solvent is reapplied, if it is the right kind and applied in the right way, there is a chance of at least some of the product redissolving, for sure. But the reality is that it is a solvent/product mix (so not pure solvent) being applied, in a very thin form, and it will not be raw enough to have much effect.

Get a cloth and some water and try to remove the Dulux emulsion on your walls - it is a water based paint, so surely water as a solvent will make it wet and remove it? You'll find it doesn't - or doesn't easily. Cured/dried products have different properties to when they were in solution.
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So perhaps waxes can be layered, at least to an extent. If they can, the key is to allow the first coat to cure sufficiently long enough to allow the solvents and oils to evaporate before applying the second coat.

Does anyone know of any reliable studies of this question that would point to a decisive answer one way or the other?

Cheers,
Al
 
One other variable should be mentioned: Are "waxes" like Collinite 845 or 476s properly classified as waxes or sealants? What is providing the durable protection these products leave behind?
 
carnuba wax doesnt really "cure" like a synthetic....think of it like a butter, you can keep adding it, but it doenst really stack up....

and if i was selling wax for a living, i would convince you adding layers is possible so i can sell more wax....
 
vinnier6 said:
carnuba wax doesnt really "cure" like a synthetic....think of it like a butter, you can keep adding it, but it doenst really stack up....

and if i was selling wax for a living, i would convince you adding layers is possible so i can sell more wax....
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As one of my professors liked to say, "Interesting, if true."

What precisely happens when a fresh layer of carnauba wax is applied over a cured layer of carnauba wax? This is what we are trying to figure out. We don't need to engage in a a semantic debate on the meaning of the verb cure: it enjoys one meaning when referring to cross-linking synthetic sealants and another meaning when referring to carnauba-based waxes. When used for the latter it refers to the process of solvent/oil evaporation. When all the solvents and oils have evaporated, we are left with the hard, albeit very thin, carnauba protective shield.

So we come back to the question, Can a carnauba wax be layered at all? It all depends on what we think happens to the previously applied layer of wax? Do you know? You have shared with us your opinion, but what are the grounds for your belief? I am not intending to be controversial or disrespectful; but on the internet everyone has opinions, and we all like to assert our opinions as if they were indubitably and incorrigibly true.

I am certainly not suggesting that carnauba waxes can be layered indefinitely. (I doubt even cross-linking synthetic sealants can be layered indefinitely.) For purposes of discussion, we can restrict ourselves to the second coat. What happens to the first coat when the second coat is applied? Does it reliquify? Does the second coat interpenetrate and melt into the hard first coat? Can anyone give me an authoritative answer that is based on real science?
 
im a mechanical engineer, ill leave the chemistry to the chemists...


what i do know is this:

I HAVE noticed an improvement by topping insulators wax with nattys blue

I HAVE noticed slightly greater durability with this combo

I CANT determine if they have mixed and created one layer of wax

I WILL continue to use a cheap combo that has proven to work and ignore the science behind it, unless of course there is something that leads me to believe better is out there...


I WILL continue to multi coat Klasse SG 4-5 times when i use it, just because it makes me feel good and gets me in the driveway

I CANT determine if anything above 2 coats does any better... its all in your head, and all about how much time/money your willing to commit... if adding 3 extra coats forces me to be more willing to keep it clean, ill do it...





not to add to the mix of confusion, what about a cold water rinse on fresh wax between coats?
 
You can top a durable wax using a softer beauty wax. Dodo Juice encourages people to do this; lay down a Dodo Hard Wax as your base coat for better durability and then put a Dodo Soft Wax as your top coat for the best shine.

As long as your top coat doesn't container any cleaners, you should be fine. That doesn't mean you can use Collinite #845 as your base coat and then top it with Wolfgang Sealant, for example. You have to use a setup that makes sense: sealant first, then carnauba wax.
 
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2 coats of the same wax for me. I'll have to go along with what Mike Phillips says about the whole debate, it just makes sense to me. Until it's proven that a measurable build can be achived from layering, I'll stick with two coats of the same wax.

Not sure I buy or agree with the water based paint example either, apples to oranges IMO. I remove dried on polish by using more polish...


Rasky
 
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You need to make sure the first coat is more durable than the second. Otherwise you will eventually get a dead wax underneath. Which will inturn render the second topper useless. Like using souveran first, then topping with fuzion.
 
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