Water etch marks after 2 layers of waxing!

[triplezero]

Hi Guys,

3 days ago, I washed (Ultimate W&W shampoo), clayed, polished/cleaned (SwirlX using DA), and waxed (NXT 2.0 using DA). A day later, i applied another layer of wax (NXT 2.0 using hand). Paint was smooth as ever, and never looked better.

My car was parked outside yesterday, and it rained at over the night, I was impressed with the water beading. Then, this afternoon, it was a pretty hot day with a hot sunshine. When I took the car out in the late afternoon, I was shocked that there was very very obvious water stains, and when i tried to touch it, i realised that the water mark was NOT a layer on top of the paint which it usually was before i gave the car a major detail. Previously, after it rained and dried, it seemed that the water mark was a layer OVER the paint, i was able to use a finger and gently rub off the water mark if i wanted to. But today, it seemed that the water mark was a layer BELOW the paint/clear coat/ wax layer, kinda like sunken down. (See picture attached.) Couldnt rub it off even with a moist micro fiber cloth.

What happened?

I was so pissed and washed the car using the Ultimate W&W. Most of the stains were removed, but a couple, about 20% of them, were still visible. I then used Ultimate Quick Wax and after wipling dry. The marks were less visible. Then i appplied another layer of NXT 2.0. I still wasnt satisfied as I could still see the stains. For the more obvious ones, I tried clying, swirlX and then NXT 2.0, but shockingly, it stains were still there it I looked hard enough at an angle.

Anyone knows why I'm experiencing this? What puzzles me is that this never happened before. Before I gave it the detail 3 days ago - clayed, polished and wax, whenever it rained, the marks were easily removed even if i washed the car days later.

I'm so devastated. I though the wax was supposed to protect me car.. whats going on?

 

[Mazda.Mark]

Might try an IPA wipe down or wash the area with dawn to strip the wax and other treatments onthe paint.

 

[Jons6.7]

Dang that sucks, I feel your pain after all that work to have this suddenly jump out at you. Could you have somehow missed this spot with wax? after 2 layers I doubt it but other than that or now that your paint all looks so good your hyper aware of things that may have not even been noticable before. Like once you get a new car you see everyone on the road of the same make that you swear where never there before.

Wish I had a good fix for you but some of the other uber detailers hopefully will chime in one for you.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just makes the point that anything strong enough, or corrosive enough to etch paint is strong enough to eat past a micron, or sub-micron thin layer of wax or paint sealant.


Makes you wonder what's in the water?

How To Remove Sprinkler Water Spots

How to remove water spots by hand

How to use a hand applied abrasive polish or paint cleaner by hand


Vinegar is often times recommended and used because it can break the bond between minerals and paint allowing the minerals to be wiped off. If the spots are actual etchings "in" the paint, not "on" the paint, then the only way to remove them is to level the surface and this is done by abrading the paint with some type of compound or abrasive polish.


From this article,

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring


Excerpt...

Water Spots - Type I, Type II, Type III
Water Spots are more complex than most people assume because there are different types of water spots. Some water spots are merely mineral deposits on the surface left behind after water with minerals has evaporated off the surface. These deposits can often be washed off the paint using a quality car wash soap. Sometimes these deposits can also leave an imprint in the paint in the perimeter of the spot and in these cases the imprint must be removed using a compound or paint cleaner as it's a defect in the paint, not simply a deposit on the paint.

Some sources of water, be it rain with air-borne pollution mixed-in, or sprinkler water from a city water supply or well water, can have corrosive enough elements in it that it will actually eat into or etch the paint leaving a depression or crater in the paint where the water dwelled or dried. This is a Type II water spot and it can only be removed by leveling the surrounding paint by hand or machine with some type of abrasive compound or paint cleaner.

Type III Water Spots are primarily a stain in the paint which looks like fading where water pooled and then dwelled for some measure of time. This primarily happens to single stage paints which tend to be more porous and thus will absorb water into itself. If Type III Water Spots are limited to only the upper surface of the paint then they can be removed by abrading the paint by hand or machine with a compound or polish.

Before attempting to remove water spots it is important to first diagnose which type of water spot is affecting your car's paint.

Type I Water Spots
Type I Water Spots are primarily a mineral or dirt deposit laying on the surface of paint. Type I Water Spots can be the results of minerals suspended in city water or well water that are left behind after the water evaporates off the finish. This can happen by washing a car but not drying the water off the paint or if a sprinkler goes off next to the car covering the car with water drop that are not dried off the paint. Type I Water Spots can also be dirt or pollution particles left behind after water from rain or inclement weather evaporates of the finish. Type I Water Spots can also be Type II Water Spots in that the water can leave both a deposit on the surface and an etching in the finish.


Type II Water Spots
Type II Water Spots are actual etchings or craters in the paint because something corrosive in a water source has landed on the paint and was not removed before a portion of the paint was eaten or dissolved by the corrosive substance.

Type III Water Spots
Type III Water Spots are spots that look faded or dull and are found primarily found on single stage paints after a water source lands on and then pools on the paint and is usually left to dwell on the surface for some measure of time before it evaporates or is wiped-off the surface.
​

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

My car was parked outside yesterday, and it rained at over the night, I was impressed with the water beading.

Water beading looks cool, but the problem with it is if you're not around to wipe the water off the paint before it dries it can and will intensify the corrosive strength of whatever is in the water and this leads to etchings in the paint.

The problem is perception.

EVERYONE, (or at least seemingly the majority of people into detailing), thinks water beading looks cool and is an indicator of protection.

I was told some of the best protecting ingredients don't bead water very well by a Meguiar's chemist and that in order to make water bead well and for a long time they have to counter the non-beading effect of these protection ingredients.

Perception is reality, people want to see their choice of wax or paint sealant bead water.

A wax or paint sealant that doesn't bead water but causes the water to lay flat over the surface would help to prevent Type II water spot etchings. The market has spoken, you've all seen the water beading/protection threads... water beading wins over and over again.

Trying to educate the masses on the negative effect of water beading is a losing battle that leads to loss of sales to the products that bead water well and bead water for a long time.

 

[CEE DOG]

Vinegar with quality mf towel asap. Then uwwp afterwards

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Vinegar with quality mf towel asap. Then uwwp afterwards

I agree that's a good first thing to try or even a quality spray detailer, but if the spots are actual "etchings" in the paint, not mineral deposits "on" the paint, then Vinegar won't work.

A lot of times the spots leave a very light or shallow imprint on and in the paint and a light paint cleaner with a clean foam applicator pad will remove them, then re-apply a coat of wax or paint sealant.

How To Remove Sprinkler Water Spots


How To Remove Sprinkler Water Spots using The Least Aggressive Method Approach

This is a nasty problem that usually happens after you've just washed and waxed your favorite ride... and unaware you've parked next to a sprinkler. Then when you return to your car....

Sprinkler Water Spots!

Luckily they're only on half the car...

The question is, are they Type I or Type II Water Spots? Let's hope they're Type I and will wipe-off or wash off, if they're Type II Water Spots we'll have to use some type of abrasive compound or polish to level the paint surface in order to remove the spots.

We've pulled the Mercedes-Benz into our studio where we can work out of direct sunlight on a cool surface.

The terms Hard Water or Hard Water Spots are commonly used to describe these types of spots on the surface of the paint. What's actually making up the spots are minerals and other substances dissolved in the water. After the water evaporates off the paint, the minerals, (the components referred to with the word hard in the terms Hard Water or Hard Water Spots), remain behind.

Our hope is that these spots are simply a topical defect and not a sub-surface or below surface defect. You will find out by simply washing and drying the car or wiping the panels clean using a clean, soft microfiber towel.

When following the approach of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, the first thing you want to do is to see if you can either wipe the sprinkler water spots off or wash the sprinkler water spots off. Since this car was recently washed and waxed and it's kept inside a garage when not being driven, we're going to try to wipe them off using a spray detailer with a clean, plush microfiber towel.


When removing fresh water spots, use your spray detailer heavy, or wet. Using a product heavy or wet means using extra product, more than you might normally use. The reason for his is you want lots of lubrication on the surface to help prevent any potential scratching or marring of the finish as you're wiping.

Remember, always fold your microfiber towels 4 ways to give you 8 wiping sides with plenty of cushion to spread out the pressure from your hand and wipe the paint gently.

Start out by spreading the spray detailer around to one section and then flip or fold your microfiber towel to a fresh or clean portion to remove the residue and buff to a dry, high shine.

Luck is with us... the paint is safe as the Sprinkler Water Spots did not etching into the paint and using plenty of spray detailer and a clean plush microfiber towel left a scratch-free finish.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just by chance, there's a rental car in the parking lot which also has water spots all over the finish.

These water spots look like they're established water spots, that every time it rains, or a sprinkler goes off, the water pools in the same place giving any corrosive substances repeated opportunity to etch into the paint.

Visually, I can tell the paint is likely etched in this instance but I won't know till I get the surface clean. The first step is to wash or wipe the finish, in this instance I'm going to repeat wiping process I used on the Mercedes-Benz with a spray detailer.

After wiping the paint clean, there are water spot imprints remaining in the paint.

To remove these and use the least aggressive product to get the job done I'm going to use a light paint cleaner with a microfiber applicator pad to gentle clean the paint.

If you want to take some of the work out of the cleaning step as an option you can use a machine polisher to apply and work the paint cleaner, this can save a lot of elbow grease and speed up the process especially if the water spots are over the entire car.

If you opt to machine apply the paint cleaner and you're starting with a clean, dry pad, be sure to prime the pad by spreading the paint cleaner over the entire face of the pad, by doing this 100% of the face of the pad will be working for you from the very first moment you turn the polisher on and begin buffing.

Remove the paint cleaner residue by wiping gently using a fresh, clean microfiber towel and then apply a coat of wax or paint sealant as the paint cleaner will effectively remove everything off the surface including any previously applied wax or paint sealant.

In keeping with the philosophy of using the least aggressive product to get the job done, if washing or wiping the paint doesn't remove the water spots the next step would be using a light paint cleaner. If the light paint cleaner didn't work you could then test a light finishing polish and if that wasn't working fast enough and/or effectively enough then you could try a more aggressive product. The goal being to remove the water spots using the least aggressive product and by doing so leaving the most amount of paint on the body panels to last over the service life of the car.

Water Spots and Sprinkler Water Spots Successfully Removed

One bit of advice... try to avoid parking near sprinklers when their placement is known... in the example of the Mercedes-Benz, the water spots simply wiped off; I have seen instances of Sprinkler Water Spots that have etched round craters into clear coat paints and removing these Type II Water Spots can be not only time consuming but it will require you to remove a measurable amount of the clear layer in order to completely remove the spots.


Just be sure all your microfiber polishing cloths are clean, high quality and folded 4-ways for some cushion...


:xyxthumbs:

 

[jlb85]

Cee, it has happened to me with almost all LSPs. The sprinklers and rain water here are terrible!

It eats though Zaino, Blackfire, Opti-Coat (opti-coat had not cured, but still!), etc... The drops turn into magnifying glasses intensifying the suns rays amd accelerating the chemical etching process.

 

[rfinkle2]

i feel your pain. it seems some lsp's are more prone to water spots than others.

i know that it is a chore, but removing them with a wax with a high solvent content might help also (before resorting to polishing).

 

[DP200248721]

EVERYONE, (or at least seemingly the majority of people into detailing), thinks water beading looks cool and is an indicator of protection.

I was told some of the best protecting ingredients don't bead water very well by a Meguiar's chemist and that in order to make water bead well and for a long time they have to counter the non-beading effect of these protection ingredients.

Perception is reality, people want to see their choice of wax or paint sealant bead water.

A wax or paint sealant that doesn't bead water but causes the water to lay flat over the surface would help to prevent Type II water spot etchings. The market has spoken, you've all seen the water beading/protection threads... water beading wins over and over again.

Trying to educate the masses on the negative effect of water beading is a losing battle that leads to loss of sales to the products that bead water well and bead water for a long time.

This.. I was told the same thing years ago, though products like this can somewhat be far and inbetween in order to find the "just right" combo, good info

Spencer

 

[A4 1.8tqm]

This is why I like Autoglym HD Wax so much, it really repels water very well. It sheets water better/faster than any other wax I've tried and if it stops raining before I get home, my car ends up almost completely dry when I pull into the garage. Also it is pretty durable, I haven't exactly tested it's "Type II Water Spot" resistance, but my car doesn't get 'em. :xyxthumbs:

Edit:
Also, I can't recommend FK 425 enough. I mostly use it as a drying aid, but it sure leaves a nice finish in between wax applications and seems to help keep the "freshly waxed look" longer.

 

[triplezero]

Thanks guys for all your replies.

I guess the suspect is because the sun is really hot and bright these few days, and when we have that kind of sun right after a shower, then the water droplets on the car are going to be like little magnifying glass buring up my wax and paint.

Funny thing though is this didnt really happen before I gave the car that detail. Perhaps because there wasnt a layer of wax? Just water droplet on the clearcoat? Could the water droplet could have chemically reacted with the NXT wax to cause this phenomenon?

As an update, i tried to clay one of the water mark spots, another 2 attemps by hand using Swirl X, and then wax it with NXT 2.0. Water mark is less visible, but if you curl your head around the spot and looked hard enough at an angle, it is still noticable.

Sigh.. Maybe its because its a black car, maybe its the wax that reacts with the rain/water? Maybe... sucks

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Funny thing though is this didnt really happen before I gave the car that detail. Perhaps because there wasnt a layer of wax? Just water droplet on the clearcoat?

If the finish was neglected long enough that any previously applied wax or paint sealant had worn off, (wax and paint sealants are sacrificial barrier coatings that wear off), then the water drops would spread out and this would lessen the intensity of the corrosive action as the water dried and reduced the potential for water drop etchings.

Sacrificial Barrier Coating = The purpose of a wax or synthetic paint sealant

Could the water droplet could have chemically reacted with the NXT wax to cause this phenomenon?

Nah... would happen with anything that makes water bead up...


Do you own any type of machine polisher?

If not... it will be faster and more effective to remove them by machine than by hand. If SwirlX didn't get them all the way out move on to Ultimate Compound.

Man versus Machine

 

[James K]

Water beading looks cool, but the problem with it is if you're not around to wipe the water off the paint before it dries it can and will intensify the corrosive strength of whatever is in the water and this leads to etchings in the paint.

The problem is perception.

EVERYONE, (or at least seemingly the majority of people into detailing), thinks water beading looks cool and is an indicator of protection.

I was told some of the best protecting ingredients don't bead water very well by a Meguiar's chemist and that in order to make water bead well and for a long time they have to counter the non-beading effect of these protection ingredients.

Perception is reality, people want to see their choice of wax or paint sealant bead water.

A wax or paint sealant that doesn't bead water but causes the water to lay flat over the surface would help to prevent Type II water spot etchings. The market has spoken, you've all seen the water beading/protection threads... water beading wins over and over again.

Trying to educate the masses on the negative effect of water beading is a losing battle that leads to loss of sales to the products that bead water well and bead water for a long time.

An Eagle One rep told me the same thing years ago. When I asked why they did not make something that sheeted, his response was that no one would buy it if it did not bead.

This is why I like Autoglym HD Wax so much, it really repels water very well. It sheets water better/faster than any other wax I've tried and if it stops raining before I get home, my car ends up almost completely dry when I pull into the garage. Also it is pretty durable, I haven't exactly tested it's "Type II Water Spot" resistance, but my car doesn't get 'em. :xyxthumbs:

Edit:
Also, I can't recommend FK 425 enough. I mostly use it as a drying aid, but it sure leaves a nice finish in between wax applications and seems to help keep the "freshly waxed look" longer.

I would have to agree on your comments about AG HD. I have found that while it offers nice right reading, it sheets and repel water wonderfully.

 

[builthatch]

this is what an all in one is for. looks like your LSP essentially trapped the contaminants and protected the finish, which is what is supposed to do.

it should take a few minutes after a wash to handle this with a DA.

OP, check this thread i made last night - http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/31635-opti-seal-poli-seal-fantastic.html

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

An Eagle One rep told me the same thing years ago. When I asked why they did not make something that sheeted, his response was that no one would buy it if it did not bead.

That is the mindset on the marketing side of most if not all car wax manufactures... and I would have to 100% agree. You can make the case all day long as to the benefits of a wax or paint sealant that causes water to lay flat and at the end of the day, you win the argument but you lose the sale, or the "Wax War".

I used to do trade shows in Oregon and Washington when I worked for Meguiar's and there was a Eagle One Rep that was at all the shows I worked at too, heck of a nice guy...

 

[mg6045]

I edited my post, sorry , i overlooked the fact that you used swirlx with the DA.

But still, you may have been masking some defects that you thought you removed.

 

[mg6045]

An Eagle One rep told me the same thing years ago. When I asked why they did not make something that sheeted, his response was that no one would buy it if it did not bead.



I would have to agree on your comments about AG HD. I have found that while it offers nice right reading, it sheets and repel water wonderfully.

AutoGlym HD is a fantastic product. I totally agree. I bought it at Pepboys last summer when it first came out, its very impressive !

 

[triplezero]

If the finish was neglected long enough that any previously applied wax or paint sealant had worn off, (wax and paint sealants are sacrificial barrier coatings that wear off), then the water drops would spread out and this would lessen the intensity of the corrosive action as the water dried and reduced the potential for water drop etchings.

Sacrificial Barrier Coating = The purpose of a wax or synthetic paint sealant


Ahh.. That could explain why it wasnt bad last time when it rained. The paint wasnt really neglected, but it only had a layer of NXT 2 months ago, no claying or polishing.


Nah... would happen with anything that makes water bead up...


Do you own any type of machine polisher?

If not... it will be faster and more effective to remove them by machine than by hand. If SwirlX didn't get them all the way out move on to Ultimate Compound.

Yes, i own a DA, but it wasnt worth getting it out and plugged it for a small job i though, hence i worked by hand. Agree that it would have been more efficient and faster with a DA.

Man versus Machine

Thanks for your reply!!