Water less or rinse less wash that will not freeze...

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BMW

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Does anyone know of a waterless or rinseless wash (mix or premix) that does not freeze.

This is so that it may be left in the vehicle at all times (for those emergency bird deposits) being left in the vehicle may subject it to temps below freezing...a few times it may hit 0 Fahrenheit.

Anyone have any experience with this?
 
BMW said:
Does anyone know of a waterless or rinseless wash (mix or premix) that does not freeze.

This is so that it may be left in the vehicle at all times (for those emergency bird deposits) being left in the vehicle may subject it to temps below freezing...a few times it may hit 0 Fahrenheit.

Anyone have any experience with this?
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You could mix in some alcohol, but of course that will strip your protection

Another thing you could do is heat the area your going to work on. You can do this by just parking the car where the Sun will hit the spot your concerned with
 
Well, it's all going to freeze at 0. I keep an old bottle of Poorboy's BSR which is like concentrated Spray n' Wipe, and it freezes, but it thaws out ok. Make sure you have a bottle that won't crack when it freezes, the polyethylene seems to be ok. Bear in mind that usually when it's below the freezing point of your bird remover, it's also below the temperature where the poop will do anything to your paint other than be unsightly.
 
Thanks for the input guys...according to this article and research by Autoglym it isn't the acid within bird droppings that causes issues...it is actually thermal expansion and contraction of differing materials.

The real reason why bird droppings damage your car - Telegraph

Given how prone Indiana is to cold nights and above freezing sunny days the paint would easily have the opportunity to warm up enough to either active the acid and/or create thermal expansion to cause a deformation in the clear coat.
 
BMW said:
Thanks for the input guys...according to this article and research by Autoglym it isn't the acid within bird droppings that causes issues...it is actually thermal expansion and contraction of differing materials.

The real reason why bird droppings damage your car - Telegraph

Given how prone Indiana is to cold nights and above freezing sunny days the paint would easily have the opportunity to warm up enough to either active the acid and/or create thermal expansion to cause a deformation in the clear coat.
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While temps might be a factor, I did some more digging after I read that article. There are actually quite a few studies on bird poo and paint, this is a good one to start with:

A mechanistic study of degradation of a typical automotive clearcoat caused by bird droppings
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Oh sure, Yakky, post a link from a university in Teheran, so now we're all going to wind up on the terrorist watch list from looking at it :doh:
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When I read your post I thought, "whew...glad I didn't click on that link."

Then I proceded to post 5 to click on the first highlighted article and my eyes fooled me, in a hurry, and I clicked on the wrong link....Tehran, Iran...dang it. I didn't want to click on it either.
:nomore:
 
Hoytman said:
When I read your post I thought, "whew...glad I didn't click on that link."

Then I proceded to post 5 to click on the first highlighted article and my eyes fooled me, in a hurry, and I clicked on the wrong link....Tehran, Iran...dang it. I didn't want to click on it either.
:nomore:
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I'm just yakking Yanky's chain...er...something like that...I think that article is from the Journal of Coatings Technology and Research (which is why it's in English), so we're (probably) safe. If I start hearing clicks on my phone and #### Cheney breathing I'll know I'm in trouble.
 
I guess my question is... what kind of bird droppings do you get in freezing weather?
I don't see many things besides road salt flying around in winter.
 
Belicoso said:
I guess my question is... what kind of bird droppings do you get in freezing weather?
I don't see many things besides road salt flying around in winter.
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That's what I was trying to say, if a bird poops on your car during the winter, you pull out your WW from the trunk and wipe it off...if your WW is frozen, then the bird poop will freeze too...and it doesn't seem to do much to the paint when it's frozen (or cold, even). Anyway, that seems to be my experience, I don't ever remember getting an etch during the winter.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm just yakking Yanky's chain...er...something like that...I think that article is from the Journal of Coatings Technology and Research (which is why it's in English), so we're (probably) safe. If I start hearing clicks on my phone and #### Cheney breathing I'll know I'm in trouble.
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I just thought it was funny.
 
Because direct sun can easily heat the car exterior to well above freezing on a below freezing day...the painted exterior can easily exceed freezing temps while ice and snow cover the roads. I read a study that dark paint temps in direct sun can exceed ambient temps by 50-70 degrees...which obvious activates any type of temperature sensitive process.

So I hope I have put the tangent of "is this an issue" to bed...the answer is "yes it is"
 
BMW said:
Because direct sun can easily heat the car exterior to well above freezing on a below freezing day...the painted exterior can easily exceed freezing temps while ice and snow cover the roads. I read a study that dark paint temps in direct sun can exceed ambient temps by 50-70 degrees...which obvious activates any type of temperature sensitive process.

So I hope I have put the tangent of "is this an issue" to bed...the answer is "yes it is"
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Yeah, it's an issue, but it's not an issue---everytime my paint is above freezing in the winter and I want to clean something off of it---my WW/QD etc. is unfrozen enough to use. If you really want something that won't freeze at 0°F, then get some of that windshield washer fluid with the proplyene glycol in it, but it will also have stuff that will strip your LSP.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm just yakking Yanky's chain...er...something like that...I think that article is from the Journal of Coatings Technology and Research (which is why it's in English), so we're (probably) safe. If I start hearing clicks on my phone and #### Cheney breathing I'll know I'm in trouble.
Click to expand...

Is that why I have a bunch of black helicopters over my house? I thought it was because I was stealing satellite tv.... crap. Im the MAN
 
I appreciate your help, but having something that goes through a freeze thaw cycle is not a viable solution. It would be interesting to see if propylene glycol would strip an LSP...considering it is not as caustic and is relatively environmentally friendly as compared to ethylene glycol.

Two Points:
1. A product passing through the freeze/thaw cycle can be altered chemically...most likely through solvent and solute separation.
2. The stress placed upon a plastic container continuously subjected to a expansion and contraction from the freezing and thawing of the contents will fatigue and will cause premature container failure.

My guess is that most WW/QD have a freezing point that is lower than water...'cause they may have water as a primary component, but the additives will changing the bonding thereby lowering the freeze point. Liked adding Gatorade powder to your water actually lowers the freeze point for those mid winter outdoor activities.
 
BMW said:
I appreciate your help, but having something that goes through a freeze thaw cycle is not a viable solution. It would be interesting to see if propylene glycol would strip an LSP...considering it is not as caustic and is relatively environmentally friendly as compared to ethylene glycol.

Two Points:
1. A product passing through the freeze/thaw cycle can be altered chemically...most likely through solvent and solute separation.
2. The stress placed upon a plastic container continuously subjected to a expansion and contraction from the freezing and thawing of the contents will fatigue and will cause premature container failure.

My guess is that most WW/QD have a freezing point that is lower than water...'cause they may have water as a primary component, but the additives will changing the bonding thereby lowering the freeze point. Liked adding Gatorade powder to your water actually lowers the freeze point for those mid winter outdoor activities.
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It's not the proplyene glycol that will strip your LSP, it's the other ingredients in the PG windshield washer mixes that will.

I appreciate your scientific approach to this, but let me give you my empirical results...my Poorboy's BSR (again, a more concentrated version of SnW) appears unaffected by countless freeze/thaw cycles over the YEARS it has been in the back of my car. The original bottle cracked after a couple of years, but the PE spray bottle from US Plastics that I put the BSR into subsequently has been fine after YEARS in use. My friend Jr. has the same setup and the same results. I'm talking about 5+ years experience x2 with this...but you do what you want, I'm out.
 
if proplyene glycol doesn't freeze then you can just buy some at the pharmacy.

I get mine from Costco for use in my humidor. It's not for sale per say but is the main carrier in cough syrup so I asked the pharmacist for some. She asked what for and I told her it was for use in my humidor since the vapour pressure is 70%. She did some calculations and charged me $1.50 for 100ml.
 
I purchase propylene glycol as anti-freeze for my boat at wal-mart. It is typically in the RV section and is listed as environmentally friendly.

Guess I will have to do some testing with different washes to determine freeze points.
 
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