waxing every week does not prevent clear coat failure? dull clearcoat = impending failure?

[pman626]

if a car sitting outside and waxed every week still gets clear coat failure, why even bother waxing at all?

If clear coat gets hazy, but can be buffed back to a shine, is it pretty much too late to save it? point of no return?

I have a 2007 dark gray car, and the roof paint has gotten hazy or dull (in the sense that reflections are not very clear). With a DA polisher, I can restore some shine, but does dull paint mean the paint has already failed?

I was hoping that I could maintain the shine by applying layers of paint sealant.
But it sounds like car paint fails regardless of the effort you put in to maintain it.

 

[The Guz]

Do you have any photos?

 

[Scoobertin]

What products did you use?

 

[TTQ B4U]

if a car sitting outside and waxed every week still gets clear coat failure, why even bother waxing at all?

not sure waxing it every week would be wise let alone helpful.

If clear coat gets hazy, but can be buffed back to a shine, is it pretty much too late to save it? point of no return?

Needs pics before and after but if you're back to a shine then perhaps not. Although again, one would need to see the condition including close ups.

I have a 2007 dark gray car, and the roof paint has gotten hazy or dull (in the sense that reflections are not very clear). With a DA polisher, I can restore some shine, but does dull paint mean the paint has already failed?

Honda?

I was hoping that I could maintain the shine by applying layers of paint sealant.
But it sounds like car paint fails regardless of the effort you put in to maintain it.

The debate on layering continues. I refer back to the original point though, weekly application isn't needed.

 

[Desertnate]

Depending on the product, I'm wondering if the weekly waxing is causing the hazing. If you are not removing the old wax first, over time it will build up and cause the surface to look cloudy and hazy. Doing it every week will accelerate the process.

Unless you're using a spray wax, I can't imagine even the softest "beauty" waxes wearing away in a week. Most should last at least a month to six weeks.

 

[FUNX650]

Waxing every week...Way Cool!!

It's always FUN to meet fellow Zen Waxists. :dblthumb2:
(I sometimes wax multiple times a week.)

*************************************

Impending ClearCoat (CC) failure:

Some CCs that are never cared for
(washed/clayed/sealed with an LSP)
will actually "last" ~3-4 years. (But
at that point they're not something
you'd ever want to write home about.)

On the other hand:
Some CCs are not...uhh...not as tough.


Bob

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

if a car sitting outside and waxed every week still gets clear coat failure, why even bother waxing at all?

To answer your question... why even bother waxing it at all?

So your car looks good while you own it and drive it.


To go a little deeper... my opinion, (for what it's worth), is that regular maintenance will help prevent or slow down clearcoat failure. Here's a simple little saying,

"Something is better than nothing"


Maintaining the clearcoat keeps it in good shape so it can last. Not maintaining it lets it degrade and then its certain to fail faster than if it had been cared for. My lifelong complaint about clearcoat paints is the fact that they DO fail and when they do fail you and I cannot fix them.

This is why I like single stage paint. It does NOT fail. It oxidizes but you and I can fix oxidation. Only a body shop and a painter can fix clearcoat failure.

If clear coat gets hazy, but can be buffed back to a shine, is it pretty much too late to save it? point of no return?

I'm going to be very specific with my words...

If a clearcoat gets hazy but can be buffed back to where it's CLEAR again, (that's different than making the surface shiny), AND the clarity remains past a week then from experience the clearcoat is still functional. If after buffing the clearcoat becomes clear again but in a few days to a week it returns to a cloudy, opaque appearance then that's the visual sign of beginning clearcoat failure.

See my article and the picture of beginning clearcoat failure here,


Beginning Clearcoat Failure

I have a 2007 dark gray car, and the roof paint has gotten hazy or dull (in the sense that reflections are not very clear). With a DA polisher, I can restore some shine, but does dull paint mean the paint has already failed?

To vague of a description of what you did? More important than telling us what tool you used would be to tell us what pad and product you used.

But if I go by just what you posted and do something I hate to do and that's "assume" then your description PLUS where you live and all the SUNSHINE you get in Los Angeles on all the horizontal surfaces, it sounds like beginning clearcoat failure.

I was hoping that I could maintain the shine by applying layers of paint sealant.
But it sounds like car paint fails regardless of the effort you put in to maintain it.

The idea of "layering" for MORE protection is a great idea but it simply doesn't work in reality. A better approach is to regularly wash and maintain the paint. I have an article on MOL on layering from around the year 2004 that tackled the topic of layering when it hit a crescendo in the online detailing world.


What's the deal with "Layering?"


And then also covered the topic here in 2010

Sacrificial Barrier Coating = The purpose of a wax or synthetic paint sealant



And here's why you don't want to continually use a non-cleaning wax to try to build up layers of protection on cars that are daily drivers.


Here's why you need to polish paint...



A few of my local friends have figured the paint game out. When they get a car painted the get it painted with single stage paint. Thus no chance of clearcoat failure. When the single stage paint oxidizes... they simply polish it back to perfection. I demonstrate this unique feature about single stage paint all the time in this thread,



The Secret to Removing Oxidation and Restoring a Show Car Finish to Antique Single Stage Paints

 

[pman626]

Depending on the product, I'm wondering if the weekly waxing is causing the hazing. If you are not removing the old wax first, over time it will build up and cause the surface to look cloudy and hazy. Doing it every week will accelerate the process.

Unless you're using a spray wax, I can't imagine even the softest "beauty" waxes wearing away in a week. Most should last at least a month to six weeks.

Oh, I don't wax my car every week. I do it every month. I'm just wondering whether weekly waxing would even offer any long term protection.

I know for sure any wax does not last more than a month in the LA sun on my smoky granite car.

It's a 2007 lexus smoky granite. The paint is nothing special, probably no better than a regular toyota.

I also claybar'd before applying wax, so the haziness is definitely the paint, not the wax.

I have been using collinite 845 the past few years.

I also used an no name orange compounding pad with meguiars ultimate polish and did some jeweling on a test spot to bring back some shine. Pics below.
I have megs ultimate compound, but I wanted to try the lightest cut first.

single stage vs base/clear

If clear coat is just "clear single stage paint", then is clear coat hazing just like oxidation?


Here are pics of the dullness I was talking about. There isn't any bubbling.

I put a tent over the car so there would be something to reflect off the paint.
This is after claybar.
Compare the reflectivity of the glass and moonroof to the paint...

(right click open image in new tab to see full size)

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Observation...


From the pictures you posted - the paint does look dull and the reflections [to me] don't look as sharp and clear as they could.


What did you use for a compound or polish?
What tool did you use?
What pad did you use?
What speed for the tool?

Details about the process?


Without knowing what you used and did, to me it looks like a person could simply get a little more aggressive with the buffing and this would smooth the surface over and thus increase the clarity of the paint.



:dunno:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

How about the sides of the vehicle?

How does the paint look on the sides?

Did you polish the sides the same way you polished the horizontal surfaces?


Horizontal surfaces take a beating from the sun and also the weather and all elements and airborne contamination. Living in California is kind of like living in South Florida - that is you live where Mother Nature naturally takes a toll on ALL things, not just your car.

 

[2black1s]

... PLUS where you live and all the SUNSHINE you get in Los Angeles on all the horizontal surfaces, it sounds like beginning clearcoat failure...

Growing up in Ohio, and painting cars for a living at that time, I never realized what a destructive force that sunshine could be. In 1980 I moved to Southern CA and it didn't take me too long to learn what prolonged exposure to intense sunshine can do.

I have learned that one of the best protections for your vehicles paint is to minimize it's exposure to the sun.

Nowadays I do the best I can to minimize the amount of time my vehicles are in the sun. That doesn't mean I don't drive or ride during the day. What it does mean is that I will never let my vehicles sit outside, all day long, day after day without a cover or some other protection. If I go to the store I'll search the parking lot for a shaded area. At work I would go out and move my car, or bike, during the day to keep it in the shade. If there was no shade I'd use a car/bike cover. Steps like these will do wonders for the longevity of your paint.

I could go on and on about the damaging effects of the sun on a multitude of things, but to keep on topic I'll limit this post to it's effects on your paint.

 

[pman626]

Observation...


From the pictures you posted - the paint does look dull and the reflections [to me] don't look as sharp and clear as they could.


What did you use for a compound or polish?
What tool did you use?
What pad did you use?
What speed for the tool?

Details about the process?

Yeah the paint is clearly dull. no doubt about it.

A marked difference vs the vertical surfaces like the doors. I've never polished or waxed the doors since 2007, and they look new.
Since 2007, I've only waxed the horizontal surfaces regularly, cuz I know what the california sun can do, and I didn't want to get peeling paint on the roof and trunk.
I've polished the horizontal surfaces twice in that time.

I don't do anything fancy.
I use a harbor freight DA polisher, orange pad with megs ultimate polish, speed 5 out of 6, go over the spot a few times with just the weight of the polisher, and that spot came out shinier.

Without knowing what you used and did, to me it looks like a person could simply get a little more aggressive with the buffing and this would smooth the surface over and thus increase the clarity of the paint.

oh I know it would definitely get clearer if I were more aggressive.

But I was just wondering if my clear coat is on its way out, and if sealant can prolong its life after I buff it back to a better shine.

Short of dousing my car in 303 aerospace protectant, seems like no product on the market can protect from the sun's damaging UV, which is why paint fails in the first place?

 

[Rsurfer]

Yeah the paint is clearly dull. no doubt about it.

A marked difference vs the vertical surfaces like the doors. I've never polished or waxed the doors since 2007, and they look new.
Since 2007, I've only waxed the horizontal surfaces regularly, cuz I know what the california sun can do, and I didn't want to get peeling paint on the roof and trunk.
I've polished the horizontal surfaces twice in that time.

I don't do anything fancy.
I use a harbor freight DA polisher, orange pad with megs ultimate polish, speed 5 out of 6, go over the spot a few times with just the weight of the polisher, and that spot came out shinier.






oh I know it would definitely get clearer if I were more aggressive.

But I was just wondering if my clear coat is on its way out, and if sealant can prolong its life after I buff it back to a better shine.

Short of dousing my car in 303 aerospace protectant, seems like no product on the market can protect from the sun's damaging UV, which is why paint fails in the first place?

Optimum Spray Wax has 2 patent UV protection.

 

[pman626]

Growing up in Ohio, and painting cars for a living at that time, I never realized what a destructive force that sunshine could be. In 1980 I moved to Southern CA and it didn't take me too long to learn what prolonged exposure to intense sunshine can do.

I have learned that one of the best protections for your vehicles paint is to minimize it's exposure to the sun.

Nowadays I do the best I can to minimize the amount of time my vehicles are in the sun. That doesn't mean I don't drive or ride during the day. What it does mean is that I will never let my vehicles sit outside, all day long, day after day without a cover or some other protection. If I go to the store I'll search the parking lot for a shaded area. At work I would go out and move my car, or bike, during the day to keep it in the shade. If there was no shade I'd use a car/bike cover. Steps like these will do wonders for the longevity of your paint.

I could go on and on about the damaging effects of the sun on a multitude of things, but to keep on topic I'll limit this post to it's effects on your paint.

The stupid thing is that I use my garage for storage.

I would use a car cover, but it's such a pain to remove and cover again, and the dust that accumulates on it gets on my clothes when I remove the cover.


I did buy a bottle of Nu Finish liquid sealant recently, and they claim they tested the product in south florida, so I'm going to switch from Collinite 845 to Nufinish for a while and see what results I get.

With 160+[SUP]o[/SUP]F paint temps, that collinite 845 is gone in under a month.
I mean the next time I wash the car clean with Meguiars Crystal car wash, there's absolutely no water beading left on the horizontal surfaces.

 

[shadwell]

I also use 845.. and rather than sto, I simply top and maintain with Otimum car wax.. (it have UV protectants in it.. apparently.. )
Thats in Queenslands ozoneless tropical cancer hot spot down under.. on a white and black car..

After 5 years (longest i have kep a single car in the last 15 years) i have never had even the faintest beginnnings of paint fade or clearcoat failure..

Many cars in the 15yrs an older here have total paint failure.. irrespective of brand and paint system.. its sad to see...

 

[JeffM]

Dr G said in one of his podcasts that the half life of clear coat is 5 years. His car wax will add UV blockers back into the CC, thats the basis of the patent I believe. I assume this is a car outside 24/7.

If it were anyone else I may be more skeptical.

 

[Mantilgh]

I'll take a guess at it too, after seeing some pics.

I just did a clay/wax on a neglected 12' Lexus that had a couple of cloudy spots that looked like the beginning of clear coat failure. It seemed to be oxidation on the clear coat, but may have been something else. It was removed by claying.

With how even and consitant your cloudiness, or hazing is, I'd say it is marring and water spots. Claying will not remove them and, for me, clay often marrs Toyota paint. You may need the compound step, then a polish if the paint is as rough as it looks in the reflection of the edge of the tent.

 

[pman626]

I also use 845.. and rather than sto, I simply top and maintain with Otimum car wax.. (it have UV protectants in it.. apparently.. )
Thats in Queenslands ozoneless tropical cancer hot spot down under.. on a white and black car..

After 5 years (longest i have kep a single car in the last 15 years) i have never had even the faintest beginnnings of paint fade or clearcoat failure..

Many cars in the 15yrs an older here have total paint failure.. irrespective of brand and paint system.. its sad to see...

My car looked great at 5 years old too.

if only you could see what your car would be like in 15 years.... that would be a great longterm test.

 

[pman626]

Dr G said in one of his podcasts that the half life of clear coat is 5 years. His car wax will add UV blockers back into the CC, thats the basis of the patent I believe. I assume this is a car outside 24/7.

If it were anyone else I may be more skeptical.

sounds about right.

My other car is 13 years old, and I think it started failing at the 12 year mark. Trunk and roof are bubbling.

It's also a light silver color, so I imagine darker colors would be even sooner.

I'll take a guess at it too, after seeing some pics.

I just did a clay/wax on a neglected 12' Lexus that had a couple of cloudy spots that looked like the beginning of clear coat failure. It seemed to be oxidation on the clear coat, but may have been something else. It was removed by claying.

With how even and consitant your cloudiness, or hazing is, I'd say it is marring and water spots. Claying will not remove them and, for me, clay often marrs Toyota paint. You may need the compound step, then a polish if the paint is as rough as it looks in the reflection of the edge of the tent.

I know I can get it a lot better with compounding.

I just don't know how thin the clear coat is. Don't wanna make it paper thin.

 

[TTQ B4U]

sounds about right.

My other car is 13 years old, and I think it started failing at the 12 year mark. Trunk and roof are bubbling.

It's also a light silver color, so I imagine darker colors would be even sooner..

I don't believe CC's will fail even that soon. Our van is a Daily Driver and has seen it's share of abuse even. Has not been cared for it's entire life. In fact I did a complete restore of the paint this past winter and it's clear coat is in great shape. No signs of failure anywhere and I've been over every inch of it including the roof. In fact I just used McKee's jeweling wax on it this past weekend.

These pics are from prior but still relavant. Went into service in late 2006 as a 2007 model. Over 105k miles on it.