Wet sanding water spots off!

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TrueReflection

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So obviously I won't know till I try but just wanted some feedback and opinions.
I had a buddy of mine that left his 14 black Camaro near a sprinkler for a period of time (I don't know and neither does he) and got some water spots on the entire driver side everything. From hood to the tail is covered. I couldn't get these puppies off I tried CG Heavy Water Spot Remover (orange), I cut them with with 3D AAT, polished 3D AAT the whole deal and nothing. It looked really nice when I was done until obviously it hit the good ol fluorescent lights and it was all visible. So I'm afraid I have only one option left. Which is why I was led here.
My approach I am considering considering is such it is such a newer vehicle I would just hit it with 3000, moderate pressure with American CC on these cars.

What are some thoughts on approach and execution?
 
TrueReflection said:
So obviously I won't know till I try but just wanted some feedback and opinions.

I had a buddy of mine that left his 14 black Camaro near a sprinkler for a period of time (I don't know and neither does he) and got some water spots on the entire driver side everything. From hood to the tail is covered.

I couldn't get these puppies off I tried CG Heavy Water Spot Remover (orange), I cut them with with 3D AAT, polished 3D AAT the whole deal and nothing.

It looked really nice when I was done until obviously it hit the good ol fluorescent lights and it was all visible.

So I'm afraid I have only one option left. Which is why I was led here.

My approach I am considering considering is such it is such a newer vehicle I would just hit it with 3000, moderate pressure with American CC on these cars.

What are some thoughts on approach and execution?
Click to expand...

Hi TrueReflection,

Glad to see you seek out some input before sanding on thin, hard factory clearcoat paint.

I lived in Oregon most of my life and did the majority of my car detailing at least in the early years in Oregon and for anyone that might not know it rains a lot in Oregon and a lot of the cars I buffed out had water spots. I mean Type II water spots not Type I water spots.

In my opinion i believe and in my how-to book I state that Type II water spots are one of the worst types of defects to have to remove.


FIRST - Find out from your friend if they are going to be able to park the car somewhere else FOREVER into the future. If the answer is "yes" then it's okay to work on the car. If the answer is "no" or "some of the time" or "most of the time" or "maybe" then I wouldn't work on the car because they are simply going to be a problem a gain in the future.

Make sense?

As far as removing them goes...

You used too many acronyms for me to understand what you did without looking them all up?

TrueReflection said:
  1. I tried CG Heavy Water Spot Remover (orange),
  2. I cut them with with 3D AAT,
  3. polished 3D AAT the whole deal and nothing.
Click to expand...


So while I hate assuming.... here goes... assuming you meant you somehow compounded the paint with some type of tool and I'm guessing orange foam cutting pads and the spots remain then you still have a few options left...

1. Re-compound using a wool pad on a rotary buffer.
Kind of the aggressive approach but again I don't know what type of tool you used the first time so I don't know how powerful it is but I do know a rotary buffer is powerful.


2. Try one of the chemical approaches to removing water spots.
Such as Optimum MDR. I don't think this is going to work because you've already abraded the surface and compounding/polishing didn't work. This means by now everything on the surface has been removed so if there are still spots in the paint they are Type II.

Had to include that because others might chime in recommending this approach not understanding how nasty Type II water spots are to remove. Has to make you wonder...

What's in the water?


3. Wet sanding

This should be done carefully and I'd stick with 3M #5000 Trizact sanding discs instead of #3000. You know,

"Use the least aggressive approach to get the job done"

If a little sanding and compounding doesn't remove the water spots you can always re-sand. If you're brave and you can get your buddy to sign a release that you're not responsible for buffing through the clearcoat layer of paint then "sure" go for it with the #3000 Trizact but keep in mind,

1. Factory clearcoat paints are THIN
2. Factory baked on clearcoats are HARD
3. Sanding removes paint
4. Compounding removes paint.
5 Polishing removes paint.

And sooner or later you're going to turn your buffing pad over on your polisher to clean it and see the color of the basecoat on the face of the pad.


If I were going to do this I would use the same techniques I teach in my ACR classes, that is,

  1. Edge the panel with 3" discs via machine sanding.
  2. Machine sand the major flat portions with 6" discs. (Triazet is available in 5" discs but the interface pads can be tricky to find)
  3. Machine compound using a wool pad on a rotary buffer - Light pressure as #5000 will remove easily.
  4. Machine polish using a foam pad on an orbital polisher.
  5. Chemically strip the paint
  6. Apply a paint coating
  7. Tell the owner to never park the car in a place where this can happen again and always wash the car carefully by hand or via a touchless car wash into the future. NEVER any type of automatic car wash or any company that offers hand washing unless you supply the wash mitt and drying towels and watch them as they do the work.

Hope that helps...


P.S.

Before sanding an entire panel down first do a TEST SPOT. That is sand just a small area and

DIAL IN YOUR METHOD FOR REMOVING THE SANDING MARKS 100 PERCENT.

Make sure the tools, pads and products you choose to use are able to remove the sanding marks in a small area before sanding a large area. This might just stop you in your tracks and save your keester.


:)
 
Try iron x decon or contact chemical guys to see what your next option would be,I have a alternative it would be straight wheel acid ,wet one section at a time don't spray it on put some in a bucket with a sponge and saturate panel.wait about a minute and hose off dry one section inspect with a brinkman or maybe a flashlight if you don't have a brinkman if good continue on same method.when done with acid ,wash the whole car down with soap and water and the door jamb on the side where you were using acid.tape off any brushed aluminum,don't use it on the glass and cover the wheels,I'm safeguarding you for nothing to go wrong,and most of all use gloves and make sure panel is cool before acid wash.But before you do this contact cg being that there in your neck of the woods and ask them for professional advice,my solution is not professional but it works.Hate to see you start sanding.
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Hi TrueReflection,

Glad to see you seek out some input before sanding on thin, hard factory clearcoat paint.


:)
Click to expand...


As always Mike, your commitment to this community and your efforts to broaden everybody's knowledge are truly honorable, and beyond comparison. Thank you!
 
I do 30 of these acid washes per year in south fla.The water is notoriously bad as well as sprinkler water problems ,in 23 years of doing this method as mentioned above I never had to sand a car.The water spot remover you buy is dummy down diluted,try the acid before you start grinding away and I will bet you the problem will be solved in 20 mins or less.
 
And here's why I included the below in my original reply, note the red text



Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
2. Try one of the chemical approaches to removing water spots.
Such as Optimum MDR. I don't think this is going to work because you've already abraded the surface and compounding/polishing didn't work. This means by now everything on the surface has been removed so if there are still spots in the paint they are Type II.

Had to include that because others might chime in recommending this approach not understanding how nasty Type II water spots are to remove. Has to make you wonder...
Click to expand...


And as I said, GSKR chimed in and suggested what I wrote above.


To the OP

If you want to try using a hydrofluoric acid based wheel cleaner first be sure to read up on the health hazards of this acid if it gets on your skin, in your eyes or your breath it into your lungs.

Be aware of any other person in the area so it does not get into their eyes, onto their skin or into their lungs.

Be careful not to get it onto any uncoated metal as it will stain it. And be careful not to get any overspray on anyone else's vehicle.


It's some nasty stuff.

It will remove "some" types of water spots but once the paint is ETCHED that means whatever corrosive substance was in the water ate into the paint and removed a little bit of it, then the only way to make the etching disappear is to level the surface and this would be done through some type of abrading step.

Jeff aka GSKR is an experienced detailer but one thing I practice when giving advice on a public discussion forum is to also include any health risk information when making recommendations for using products that include health risks. So study up first.


And for the record, the OP asked for advice on how to go about sanding so I provided that information, didn't ignore his request.

Me?

I would avoid wet sanding ANY factory finish and ONLY use wet sanding as a LAST RESORT.

I listed the reasons why already.


This especially applies to anyone that has never wetsanded before and is not familiar with the tools necessary, doesn't already own the tools necessary nor has never performed any wetsanding before.

Here's the deal as I always say...

Sanding is the easy part... that's putting scratches INTO the paint.

The tricky part is getting them 100 percent out and when working on BAKED-ON factory thin clearcoats this will challenge even the best detailer.


:xyxthumbs:
 
You're dead on correct mike,I stated that it's not a professional way to do it,if it were my car with the proper gloves and precautions taken,and taping up trim a majority of the time it works 100 percent if it's topical water spots.If it's etched into paint that's a whole different level,I'm just implying that he should just try it rather than sanding and spending hours buffing and reducing the risk for a potential promblem.congrats to you on your new adventure mike you deserve that opportunity.
 
Sorry for the short yesterday.
I started off using chemical guys heavy remover which is orange. Next I compound the car using 3-D AAT compound with a black 6 inch wool pad on a porter cable.
I did not try at the rotary yet, I do have one that I use use a while ago just some cheap one from Harbor freight I do know how to use them though as I did with a Dewalt when I worked at a dealership here in San Diego . Is there a specific wool pad that you would recommend that I use? I only have one and it's a hook and loop back. Also stating that it is not the best as far as quality I know that you said you used 1000 RPM would you recommend that I use maybe three or four on this one ?
Thank you for everything that you stated though.

I did try a very small spot on the hood on one of the larger sizes of the spots I hit it by hand with 2500 semi lightly and that didn't really remove it maybe I just didn't do it hard enough with the 2500 but assuming how course that grit is I would have thought it would have removed it.

Sorry reediting this when I stated that you said that you used 1000 that was on the full sanding of a car that you did that's why said 1000
 
From what I'm gathering here is that this is out of your league to tackle this job,I would abort this opportunity to save your friendship,cause the first mistake you make will cause that relationship to be over.Take the car to a more seasoned detailer and let him pay.Ive seen this scenario over and over again it's not worth it.He will appreciate your interest of trying to help him out.
 
GSKR said:
You're dead on correct mike,I stated that it's not a professional way to do it
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's what Mike said, I would argue that an acid decon IS a professional way to remove water spots, hence his recommendation of Optimum MDR. There are other acid decon products including others sold here like the Finish Kare Decon Step 2, CarPro Spotless, Duragloss Water Spot Remover, and probably some others.

I think Mike's point was, #1, although you are a professional detailer, the members and non-members who might read this thread are a cross-section of pros, weekend warriors, hobbyists, google searchers, etc., who have varying skill, experience, and common-sense levels, and that suggesting the use of an acid decon product, especially if it's one with hydrofluoric (HF) or ammonium bifluoride (ABF) content, should be accompanied by sufficient warnings about the hazards and protective gear required to do this.

Of course, as Mike noted, and you affirmed, acid techniques will be ineffective if the water spots have already etched in.
 
GSKR said:
You're dead on correct mike,I stated that it's not a professional way to do it,if it were my car with the proper gloves and precautions taken,and taping up trim a majority of the time it works 100 percent if it's topical water spots.
Click to expand...

And those are the keyS to using hydrofluoric acid to "try" to remove topical water spots. The acid breaks the bond of the deposit (whatever it is), so it can be wiped away.

I touch on this topic and how it works after speaking with a PhD Organic chemist in this article,

Using Vinegar to remove water spots



GSKR said:
If it's etched into paint that's a whole different level,
Click to expand...

And that's what I was trying to share with the OP and everyone that will read this thread into the future. That is if the the water spots, which are either going to be a ring or a crater, are IN the paint not ON the paint then wiping a chemical over the surface isn't going to remove the ring or the crater only abrading the surface to level it will make the rings and/or craters visually and physically disappear.

And again... in my how-to book and in the real world I tell people all the time that Type II Water Spots are the WORST type of defect to have to deal with. I've been answering this question in the forum world since 1994 and it's never any fun to tell the owner of a car with these types of water spots how much work it is to remove them.

That's why I also state that if the problem is caused by a WATER SPRINKLER and the owner of the car has no choice but to park by the water sprinkler then removing the water spots is for nothing because it's just going to happen again.


GSKR said:
I'm just implying that he should just try it rather than sanding and spending hours buffing and reducing the risk for a potential problem.
Click to expand...

I know your intentions are good Jeff and that's why I carefully typed out my first reply to address every possible scenario.

I don't recommend to people to wetsand the factory paint on their car to remove any type of defect and especially if the person does not already have the proper tools, skills and experience because it's a lot harder to do than most people understand.

Again... he asked for information on the wetsanding topic and answering people's questions is one of my job duties so I answered him but also offered other options less risky and less involved than sanding.


GSKR said:
congrats to you on your new adventure mike you deserve that opportunity.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff...

It's a new adventure and a lot of work and responsibility and like you've I've been detailing cars all my life and also writing articles showing people how to detail cars most of my life.

When a person write an article, makes a video or writes a book they are then presenting their "opinion" to the public at large for acceptance and also peer review. That's a huge responsibility and I never shy away from it but I'm also very careful in what I say and how I say it.


I also include health safety precautions when they apply. I'm missing my leg and my sister is blind so I know what it's like to go through life with less than 100 percent of what most people have to work with and a few people may even take for granted.


:)
 
TrueReflection said:
Sorry for the short yesterday.
I started off using chemical guys heavy remover which is orange. Next I compound the car using 3-D AAT compound with a black 6 inch wool pad on a porter cable.
I did not try at the rotary yet, I do have one that I use use a while ago just some cheap one from Harbor freight I do know how to use them though as I did with a Dewalt when I worked at a dealership here in San Diego . Is there a specific wool pad that you would recommend that I use? I only have one and it's a hook and loop back. Also stating that it is not the best as far as quality I know that you said you used 1000 RPM would you recommend that I use maybe three or four on this one ?
Thank you for everything that you stated though.

I did try a very small spot on the hood on one of the larger sizes of the spots I hit it by hand with 2500 semi lightly and that didn't really remove it maybe I just didn't do it hard enough with the 2500 but assuming how course that grit is I would have thought it would have removed it.

Sorry reediting this when I stated that you said that you used 1000 that was on the full sanding of a car that you did that's why said 1000
Click to expand...

I don't think a PC, even an XP, has the grunt to really do any work with a 6" wool pad. You would want to put that pad on your rotary.

When you did your test spot with the 2500 grit paper, did you block it? (just curious)

I think you are getting some good advice to use 5000 grit trizact instead of 3000 grit...or better yet...don't do it. That's an expensive car, it's not yours, etc. etc.

If your friend is resigned to a repaint already and you are given the green light to try and save it first, then follow the recommendations that Mike Phillips gave you some posts ago. As Mike has repeatedly stated, sanding factory paint on a new car is fraught with risk.
 
TrueReflection said:
Next I compound the car using 3-D AAT compound with a black 6 inch wool pad on a porter cable.
Click to expand...

Wool pads on PCs don't do much... (just for the record)


TrueReflection said:
I did try a very small spot on the hood on one of the larger sizes of the spots I hit it by hand with 2500 semi lightly and that didn't really remove it maybe I just didn't do it hard enough with the 2500 but assuming how course that grit is I would have thought it would have removed it.
Click to expand...

I've only used Nikken brand #2500 sandpaper it's in my opinion it's very safe unless you're pressing as hard as a Gorilla.


TrueReflection said:
Sorry reediting this when I stated that you said that you used 1000 that was on the full sanding of a car that you did that's why said 1000
Click to expand...

Here's the deal... clearcoat paints are hard and thin, (generally speaking.


Clearcoats are thin by Mike Phillips

Clearcoats are Scratch-Sensitive


The factory sprayed clear layer of paint on most new cars averages around 2 mils. That's thinner than the average post-it note.

Clearcoat_Paints_Are_Thin_01.jpg




The next time you see a post-it note... feel it between your fingers... this is usually all it takes to drive home the point as to how thin the paint is on your beautiful, shiny car.

Clearcoat_Paints_Are_Thin_02.jpg




Considering the car and the problem this is a project I would probably walk away from on nice terms unless you get a signed form from him releasing you from any liability if you burn through the clear.

Remember...

  1. Sanding removes paint
  2. Compounding removes paint
  3. Polishing removes paint
And a factory clearcoat finish is not very thick.


Good discussion guys...

:)
 
Sweet thanks guys. I did tell him to go to a body shop but was just wondering in the instance he does and I can get a crack at it.
 
I have had very good success with deep water spots, using a Flex, a wool pad, and some 105.
 
I used HD speed with a griots microfiber cut pad with my griots da. Orange lc pad wasn't quite enough, I should've went right get to my rotary though.
 
Am l wrong or does rain contain no minerals? Why etching if from rain? Just asking.
 
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