What's your definition for the cause of swirl marks?

[DanaDetailingPros]

What's your definition for the cause of cob webs/swirl marks?

I'm convinced it's the clear coat deteriorating over time. Like the clear coat shrinks and causes that uniform webbing! I hear allot of detailer's say it's caused by improper washing and towels etc. I know for sure marring is a cause of allot of scratches but not the common webbing.
I felt this would be a great thread to hear what your explanation is to your customers?

I found this on a site and thought I would share it!

• Polishers/buffers with the incorrect pad or an untrained operator.
• Harsh polishing compounds and paint cleaners.
• Towels and applicators containing polyester threads.
• A dirty chamois or a chamois that has not been properly maintained.
• Wiping down a dusty or dirty car with a dry towel.
• Using a car cover when the car or the cover is not clean.
• A dirty car duster or a car duster used on a car with too much dirt on the surface.
• Not keeping your wash mitt or sponge properly rinsed.
• Automated car washes with brushes and other wipers.
• Not rinsing your car completely before washing, or not washing your car thoroughly before drying.

 

[Big DaveBig Dave is verified member.]

Do swirls appear in single stage paint? If yes, would you change your definition to top coat shrinkage instead of clear coat shrinkage? The FJ has both types of paint, the silver having a clear coat, and I've seen swirls in that, but the white roof is single stage, no clear coat, as evidenced by the white appearance of my pads after polishing. But I've never really noticed swirl marks on the roof, a couple of reasons for that IMO, the shape of the roof with raised panel lines means I wash and dry only longways, never across the roof, and it's very thick paint.

Back to your question, I think swirls come from contact with the paint with contaminated wash and drying media. If anything that contacts the paint has even the smallest contamination, and pressure is applied it will leave micro scratches, the longer this happens, from months to years, without polishing, the more appear and eventually form the round web like swirl marks we all see. To test this you could correct a car till all the swirls are gone, then wash and dry different panels in different directions for a few months. Hood and roof front to back, front doors vertically, back doors horizontally. Then have a look after a few months and see if the swirl direction matches the wash and dry direction.

Happy to be proven wrong, I'm no expert, so the above is my opinion, but I'm a fan of the scientific method, so if someone has a spare car to experiment on......

I'm currently seeing the beginnings of clear coat failure on my 12 year old FJ, but it started on a good spot on the hood, not where any of the stone chips are. So I've sprayed that part of the hood with Plastidip.

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[SNP209]

The webbing is actually the light refracting from straight scratches that are close together.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

The webbing is actually the light refracting from straight scratches that are close together.

No, it's from the paint shrinking. I read that online somewhere.


Wait--I read it in this thread! Just goes to show you can't believe everything you see online.

 

[2black1s]

There are a lot of things (and ways) to cause swirls, but I don't think "paint shrinkage" is one of them.

Think of it like this... The majority of paint shrinkage occurs in the hours and days immediately following the paint application. It continues throughout the curing/hardening process, but the rate of shrinkage diminishes over time. So, if paint shrinkage is causing swirls, then even brand new paint jobs would be a swirled out mess in a matter of hours or days following painting... And that is simply not the case.

It takes some type of mechanical agitation of the paint surface to cause swirls.

 

[Texchappy]

If it was from shrinkage, wouldn’t it be all the way through the paint layer? In that case, wouldn’t polishing be ineffective to correct it?

 

[DanaDetailingPros]

Found more information when I word it as COB WEBS which is really what I'm referring to: Found these.

Web-looking imperfections like spider scratches are typically the direct result of a clear coat losing its self-lubricating capabilities.

Dry paint is the premature loss of oils from a car's clear coat, making the surface appear lightly fractured. Commonly referred to as “spider webbing,”

 

[Big DaveBig Dave is verified member.]

Re: What's your definition for the cause of cob webs/swirl marks?

I think what your calling cob webs or spider webbing is what is what I call crazing, I had it happen to the paint on my second car, and interestingly it was an old car with single stage paint, but it had been resprayed, I found a picture of what I call crazing, first pic below. It does look a bit like a spider web.

Swirls are something different, to me anyway, see the second pic, they are induced by mechanical agitation with something that is contaminated with something like dirt or sand etc., and usually over a lot of washes which is why they eventually look circular, but they also somewhat resemble a spider web, but much finer.

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[Setec Astronomy]

Found more information when I word it as COB WEBS which is really what I'm referring to: Found these.

Web-looking imperfections like spider scratches are typically the direct result of a clear coat losing its self-lubricating capabilities.

Dry paint is the premature loss of oils from a car's clear coat, making the surface appear lightly fractured. Commonly referred to as “spider webbing,”

Oh come on man! Just because you can find something on the internet doesn't make it true or accurate. And the proof of that is THIS THREAD IS ON THE INTERNET.

Clear coat is a catalyzed resin; it isn't self-lubricating and doesn't have oils in it. Hopefully this isn't going to turn into one of those discussions we used to have about trim, that trim fades because the oils in it dry out. And I would say "TRIM DOESN'T HAVE OIL IN IT". And the response would be "but it's plastic and plastic is made from oil", and I would say, just because the base monomers used to make plastic are made from oil, doesn't mean that there is oil in plastic. And the response would be "yes there is!" and I would say, if you put eggs in the batter when you are making a cake, are there eggs in it when you are done baking it? Can you squeeze the cake and eggs come out? No, you can't, because the eggs are chemically changed into dessert, just like oil is chemically changed in order to make plastic...or clearcoat resin.

 

[vaced]

Oh come on man! Just because you can find something on the internet doesn't make it true or accurate. And the proof of that is THIS THREAD IS ON THE INTERNET.

Clear coat is a catalyzed resin; it isn't self-lubricating and doesn't have oils in it. Hopefully this isn't going to turn into one of those discussions we used to have about trim, that trim fades because the oils in it dry out. And I would say "TRIM DOESN'T HAVE OIL IN IT". And the response would be "but it's plastic and plastic is made from oil", and I would say, just because the base monomers used to make plastic are made from oil, doesn't mean that there is oil in plastic. And the response would be "yes there is!" and I would say, if you put eggs in the batter when you are making a cake, are there eggs in it when you are done baking it? Can you squeeze the cake and eggs come out? No, you can't, because the eggs are chemically changed into dessert, just like oil is chemically changed in order to make plastic...or clearcoat resin.

Sorry, but... Why does plastic trim fade?

Also, I might say there are eggs in a cake

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Sorry, but... Why does plastic trim fade?

Because of UV-induced damage to the plastic: "The most basic and prevalent UV damage mechanism in polymers is called chain scission by photolysis – the breaking of long chains into shorter ones by the direct action of high-energy photons breaking the “backbone” of the molecule." From here: UV Degradation Effects in Materials – An Elementary Overview - UV Solutions.

Also, I might say there are eggs in a cake

Yes, of course there are, but the cake doesn't go stale because you washed the eggs out of it with Dawn.

 

[vaced]

"The most basic and prevalent UV damage mechanism in polymers is called chain scission by photolysis – the breaking of long chains into shorter ones by the direct action of high-energy photons breaking the “backbone” of the molecule."

That sounds pretty irreversible to me, but I'm no chemist(?). And I didn't read the article. Then again, I guess there are trim products out there.

Yes, of course there are, but the cake doesn't go stale because you washed the eggs out of it with Dawn.

The cake may not be stale, but that would explain the many bubbles.

In all serious though, thanks for the response and link.

 

[DanaDetailingPros]

Oh come on man! Just because you can find something on the internet doesn't make it true or accurate. And the proof of that is THIS THREAD IS ON THE INTERNET.

Clear coat is a catalyzed resin; it isn't self-lubricating and doesn't have oils in it. Hopefully this isn't going to turn into one of those discussions we used to have about trim, that trim fades because the oils in it dry out. And I would say "TRIM DOESN'T HAVE OIL IN IT". And the response would be "but it's plastic and plastic is made from oil", and I would say, just because the base monomers used to make plastic are made from oil, doesn't mean that there is oil in plastic. And the response would be "yes there is!" and I would say, if you put eggs in the batter when you are making a cake, are there eggs in it when you are done baking it? Can you squeeze the cake and eggs come out? No, you can't, because the eggs are chemically changed into dessert, just like oil is chemically changed in order to make plastic...or clearcoat resin.

With 14K plus posts I praise your opinions on everything!