Your reason for being pro or anti fillers...discuss

Busy mind

Busy mind

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There's a few instances where I'm against fillers.

-If you're trying to pass off "paint correction" by using them to mask your incomplete set of skills.
-Lack of durability with fillers, and can affect LSP(until recently).

The Pro side of thinking.

-Reduces amount of paint being removed. This may actually be a favor for those who want shine but continue to neglect their vehicle with proper washing methods.
-Adds to the visual enhancement for the 98% who are content with "shiny".

What are your thoughts?
 
like anything, i think a product that fills has its place.

if the person you are dealing with is ok with a temporary solution that looks way better than it actually is, fine. this could be due to ignorance, cost, simplicity...whatever.

if the car has minimal clear left or it's just generally a risky proposition for one reason or another, fine.

but, the above is referring to what we normally call "glazes" or products that have glaze features. what Essence is being sold as appears to be a semi-permanent solution to the age old temporary issues of products with fillers. however, it's also my impression that Essence is filling at a much higher resolution than what people typically use a traditional glaze for, thus, Essence, if the marketing behind it is accurate, is more of a technology leap than what we are all used to when referring to filling. what i mean is...the filling is simply making it look better than it might look with polishing alone. that is neat. and because it is being purported to "merge" with their coating products, we are now talking about a pretty heavy system to make a filling product semi-permanent.

that said, i have no use for this sort of product and thus, don't use it. i don't use glazes or things like Essence, Artificial Clear, etc.
 
What about Chemical Guys EZ Glaze under a Sealant

I used it with Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant with great success

It seemed to fill and deepen the finish and did not negatively affect the longevity of the sealant


Used Essence with CQuartz UK this weekend....WOW!
 
I can't overlook the fact that many LSPs
are both renowned...and infamous...
for having "filling characteristics".


Bob
 
On a daily driver I'm all for fillers that are not removed by normal washing. The objective is have a great looking finish with minute to defect free appearance while preserving the clear coat.

If it is a garage queen or show car then I don't want fillers, or orange peel in that case. I want a pure flawless finish.

When detailing for money it is all about honesty with the customer, and what they are comfortable with.
 
Doesn't Prima Amigo also have durable polymer fillers??
 
Do lubricating oils fall under the definition of fillers?

If so... how would you tell them apart?

When abrading scratch-sensitive paint and the goal is to make the paint look good, how good would the paint look if you remove the lubrication oils out of compounds and polishes?


I've seen so many discussions on the topic of fillers and the one thing I always see that's missing is people forget the big picture and that the entire reason any of us are compounding and polishing paint is to make it look good.

Then people get all hung up on fillers and forget that the polishing oils while they are in the formula to buffer the abrading action so the abrasives don't simply SCOUR the paint as a secondary effect they will tend to fill.

If you remove the polishing oils you've removed an ingredient that fills, (isn't that what all the anti-filler people want?) but now you've lost the lubricating aspect and how are you going to abrade paint and make it look good without some type of lubricant?

Circle back to the big picture - making paint look good.


You guys can discuss fillers as much as you want as for me it's never been a consideration because at the end of the day I'm going to,

  1. Wash
  2. Compound
  3. Polish
  4. Wax
And if I did everything right the paint is going to look amazing regardless if I even knew if the products I used contained fillers or didn't contain fillers.

To me it just seems like such a non-issue with a finite number of quality products to choose from.

I talk a lot on this forum about abrasive technology and how some products have GREAT abrasive technology and some don't.

If you use products with great abrasive technology then regardless of whether they contain fillers or not the paint is going to look great.

If you use products with mediocre abrasive technology then you tend to get mediocre results and most of you have seen what I'm talking about when using orbital polishers it's called DA Haze or micro-marring or tick marks. That is the abrasives are leaving their own scratch in the paint and again... regardless of whether their are fillers in the formula or not.

Stick with reputable brands and use good technique with the appropriate pad and tool and that really is the best any of us can do.


:)
 
Like many, I feel they have their place. Probably moreso for personal fleets than customer vehicles.

Personally, I use them in the Fall simply to spruce up up the appearance as I do the winter prep on my vehicles. The vehicles will get abused in the winter and any correction will only last a short period of time, so it's not worth the time. In the Spring, I'll do a true correction vs hiding defects.
 
I've been reading a lot of the forums and following others detailing pages, and that's what triggered the questions. It seemed from the majority of reading that people were against glazes and such artificial enhancements were an abomination.
To me it seems that if you're caring for long term customers, you're going to want to use the least aggressive approach while trying to get the best results. Sometimes this may require a glaze but for whatever reason others are so hard set against this, it almost makes me feel guilty to consider using glazes.

Interesting to see some other views on this.
 
Busy mind said:
I've been reading a lot of the forums and following others detailing pages, and that's what triggered the questions.
Click to expand...

It's a perfectly good question and a common topic but in my opinion most of the opinions you'll read on the topic of fillers are from non-chemists, (like me), so keep that in mind when taking in opinions.


Busy mind said:
It seemed from the majority of reading that people were against glazes and such artificial enhancements were an abomination.
Click to expand...


Here's another issue to consider. There are no "Wax Police" Or I should say "Word Police" in the wax world. This means companies can choose and use any word they like to describe their product and they do.

Most glazes are NOT true glazes in the historical sense and definition of the word as used in this industry but are in fact some type of car wax or synthetic paint sealant.


Here are two true glazes using the historical use and definition of the word glaze and "yes" I have an article on this.... :D


Body Shop Safe Glaze on Fresh Paint - #7 Show Car Glaze


A common procedure for fresh paint is to hand or machine glaze the paint after any wetsanding, cutting and buffing has been performed.

Fresh Paint = Less than 30 days since it was sprayed

In most cases, fresh paint is sanded, buffed and glazed within a few days after being sprayed, before the owner picks up the car. For the glazing process you need to use a product that is "Body Shop Safe", that means there are no ingredients that will contaminate a fresh paint environment and cause surface adhesion problems for the new paint.

One type of surface adhesion problem is called "Fish Eyes" and that's where some type of contaminant remains on the prepped surface at the time the paint is sprayed and the surface tension created by the contaminant prevents paint from sticking to that area, so the paint pile up around the contaminated area and creates a circle without paint and because of the appearance after the paint dries, this type of defect has been given the name... "Fish Eye".


Two of the most well known Body Shop Safe glazes in the refinishing industry are

Meguiar's M07 Show Car Glaze
3M Imperial Hand Glaze


While they do the same job and while 3M has purchased Meguiar's, the formulas are very different and the formula for #7 Show Car Glaze goes back to the 1920's easily.


We had two hood painted just this week, in fact they were sprayed late Wednesday night. I picked them up in my truck on Thursday.


Today is Friday, this means the paint on this hood is less than 48 hours old.

Some people think that you cannot put any type of chemical or product on fresh paint until it's at least 30 days old and they're close... the rule of thumb is to not seal the paint with any type of wax or paint sealant for 30 days.

That doesn't mean you cannot use "Body Shop Safe" products on fresh paint and all across the land in body shops every day there are people pouring all kinds of chemicals on fresh paint and then compounding, polishing and glazing the paint.

As long as the paint is set-up and hardened enough to work on you can start working on it and thus pour body shop safe products on it that enable you perform whatever procedure it is you're doing.

To drive this point home, here are a few pictures of fresh paint, less than 48 hours old being hand glazed.


Fresh paint less than 48 hours old...
GlazeFreshPaint001.jpg



3M Imperial Hand Glaze and Meguiar's #7 Show Car Glaze
GlazeFreshPaint002.jpg



Pouring out #7 Show Car Glaze onto brand new fresh paint
GlazeFreshPaint003.jpg



Carefully spreading out #7 Show Car Glaze with a clean foam applicator pad
GlazeFreshPaint004.jpg



The hood is completely glazed...
GlazeFreshPaint005.jpg



Close-up... #7 has an oily sheen...
GlazeFreshPaint006.jpg



No need to let the glaze dry, in fact you want to wipe it off right after you apply it and work it in...
GlazeFreshPaint007.jpg



Wiped-off and a reflection shot of a bottle of #7 in the glazed paint...
GlazeFreshPaint008.jpg



Glazed Fresh Paint...
GlazeFreshPaint009.jpg



Reflection shot...
GlazeFreshPaint010.jpg



I hope this has shed a little light on fresh paint, glazing and body shop safe products...


:xyxthumbs:
 
I have no issues with fillers as long as I know they are in the product and that the manufacturer is being truthful when they say "Does Not Contain Fillers".

That way I can decided if a specific product is best suited for my or my clients needs. Plenty of good uses for fillers, but many negatives too when they are abused.
 
FUNX650 said:
I can't overlook the fact that many LSPs
are both renowned...and infamous...
for having "filling characteristics".


Bob
Click to expand...

Indeed. I assumed the thread was more in reference to polishes though. :dunno:
 
I personally don't mind filler glazes or filler heavy waxes, I mostly use them on my race cars though, it's impossible to polish a tube chassis thoroughly, and the fillers make it look acceptable. I also don't mind them for a customer only willing to pay for a wash and wax, just gives it a little better look.
 
RaskyR1 said:
Indeed. I assumed the thread was more in reference to polishes though. :dunno:
Click to expand...

I should have been clearer in the beginning. My thinking was geared towards products that act like a glaze and fill imperfections that the polishing didn't get before the LSP. More of masking a defect rather than remove it.

If I explained everything in my head around this, my post would get too wordy and I imagine it would just get glanced over by most readers.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this. Really isn't a wrong way to discuss it. All opinions are welcomed.
 
Busy mind said:
I should have been clearer in the beginning. My thinking was geared towards products that act like a glaze and fill imperfections that the polishing didn't get before the LSP. More of masking a defect rather than remove it.
Click to expand...

So the idea being to fill in fine imperfections to make them less visible and then sandwich them onto the paint by applying a coat of wax over them?

This way they would be hidden or masked until the wax wore off and then the fillers washed out or wore away.

Correct?



Busy mind said:
If I explained everything in my head around this, my post would get too wordy and I imagine it would just get glanced over by most readers.
Click to expand...

Nah.... never happen... I know from experience. :D


:xyxthumbs:
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
So the idea being to fill in fine imperfections to make them less visible and then sandwich them onto the paint by applying a coat of wax over them?

This way they would be hidden or masked until the wax wore off and then the fillers washed out or wore away.

Correct?
Click to expand...



Yes this is on target with my thinking. Basically I want to ramp up detailing this spring. Trying to find what the "industry standards" are because it takes me 7-8 hours (sedan)to do an acceptable AIO from wash, decon, to finish, and around 12-15 hours for a good one step followed by a sealant.

Trying to figure out how to make production customers happy and returning, as well as serving the other end of the market.

Just wait for my next question. AG may start a post limit cap per day...haha
 
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